OT- Howard SHore- The most original composer working today?

[David Coscina 3]

I just went on a Shore binge and bought Cop Land, The Score and the innovative Naked Lunch this week. Adding that to my other Shore scores, I wondered if Shore is the most original composer working in mainstream film today. By original I mean the least derivative of classical composers.

The reason why I'm positing this is that I've been listening to a lot of classical music (I'm in the midst of composing my 1st Essay for Orchestra for a competition) and have been listening to Bartok quite a bit. I was actually a little surprised to hear that both Williams and Goldsmith had used sections of his Concerto For Orchestra in some of their scores. For Williams, it was for parts of Empire Strikes Back. For Goldsmith, there's a ton in Total Recall. WHile I'm not slagging them for being inspired by Bartok (much better than the MV twits who wouldn't know Bartok from Barber), I put on some Shore and listened intently to pick out any classical references. I couldn't find any. And Shore has admitted to being a huge Bartok fan. When Shore composes atonal music, it sounds like Shore, not like Bartok or Schoenberg or whomever.

Whether my observations are correct or not, I thought it might be a provacative subject to discuss.

[ymenard 54]

Ignoring the obvious Wagnerian stuff from the LOTR trilogy, Shore is pretty much influenced by 20th Century composers. In fact he's one of the few true "modern" movie composer, with Goldenthal and other few who do not mind deconstructing classical music. They don't have a tendency to write romanticism like Johnny. I hear lots of reference to Philip Glass in his oeuvres.

I would agree he's really underrated.

[Quintus 5,399]

If Spielberg directed ROTK with Williams scoring, the charge of the Rohirrim would've been some sort of bombastic and heroic orchestration of DOOM. Brass, percussion, strings. Orchestra literally firing on all cylinders etc*

Jackson and Shore took a different approach. They treated a potentially major action scene moment with unheard of scoring restraint, within the blockbuster realm. And it ultimately blew audiences away, some of them in tears.

Yes, Shore is the most original composer working in film today.

*The thing is, Williams would still have most likely made the scene work, in its own way.

[robthehand 3]

Most original? Probably. Everyone judges him on his Lord of the Rings scores, while ignoring his Cronenberg scores, his (few) scores for Scorsese... I enjoy LOTR a lot, but his other work really is very inspired.

The Fly

[Marcus 390]

Well, he is certainly overrated if anything... Howard Shore's "rip-offs" (a term I don't believe in) are less obvious because he doesn't know or truly understand a classical tradition, simply because he isn't a classically trained composer. Nor are most contemporary film composers, for that matter. And I refuse to take him seriously as one. I do however feel that some of his scores for Cronenberg's films are very effective, even though they belong to a completely different lineage than Williams or Goldsmith or even Goldenthal.

And I hardly think it would be fair to say that atonal Williams sounds like anything other than pure Williams, and likewise with Goldsmith. Also, note that John Williams is probably more versed in contemporary classical techniques than any other composer currently working in Hollywood!!!

To deem him a "romantic" is dangerous, because it may sound like he is a throwback, whereas really nothing he writes could have been written in an other time than ours. He belongs to a great tradition that encompasses all of the greatest achievements of western musical culture. Shore does not.

(P.S.: I'm sure Williams would have actually shown more restraint than Shore if he had scored the LotR trilogy. He would have opted for something austere, tragic and deeply sincere. It would have been infinitely better and more moving than Shore's efforts, which border on new age and kitsch)

(P.P.S.: Also, I don't think Shore is a very original composer, but perhaps an original musical dramatist? His musical language is too bland, too unspecific to really earn being called original)

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

If John Williams had written The Lord of the Rings, it would have been a John Williams score.

To me, the music Howard Shore wrote was a Lord of the Rings score.

[bondo 33]

I like his work, but I wouldn't say he's the most original

[Marcus 390]

I really think the films deserved a better director and a better composer. The only artisan truly worthy of Tolkien onboard for these films was Alan Lee, who is a profound talent.

[Quintus 5,399]

I really think the films deserved a better director and a better composer. The only artisan truly worthy of Tolkien onboard for these films was Alan Lee, who is a profound talent.

Well as in the other unquoted reference you made concerning LOTR and Shore, the comments above are a nonsense. Out of the many people who made the movie adaptations a resounding success, you suggest (and truly believe?) that only Alan Lee is worthy as an "artisan" collaborator in the furthering of Tolkien's fictional legacy?

Don't be silly.

[Romão 2,274]

I also don´t think Jackson was the best choice for LOTR. He was great in logistics, but not much else.

I´m not sure if Ang Lee would´ve been a good choice for LOTR, but he is in my book far more talented than Jackson.

[Quintus 5,399]

I´m not sure if Ang Lee would´ve been a good choice for LOTR, but he is in my book far more talented than Jackson.

Ang Lee? Where does he figure? Are you sure you never read the previous comments wrong?

Though you will probably now tell us that yes, you did indeed mean Ang Lee.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I really think the films deserved a better director and a better composer.

Yes. Looks great and sounds nice but ...

[Romão 2,274]

I´m not sure if Ang Lee would´ve been a good choice for LOTR, but he is in my book far more talented than Jackson.

Ang Lee? Where does he figure? Are you sure you never read the previous comments wrong?

Though you will probably now tell us that yes, you did indeed mean Ang Lee.

My bad, I read the whole thing completely wrong

Move along, move along

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If John Williams had written The Lord of the Rings, it would have been a John Williams score.

To me, the music Howard Shore wrote was a Lord of the Rings score.

I agree with Marc.

This was perfect casting.

[Marcus 390]

Don't get me wrong, Peter Jackson did an o.k. job with LotR, but he is a rather, well, juvenile director, and a lot of his choices, and especially his visual dramaturgy, really bothers me at times. He gets lost in grand panoramas and technical shots, rather than trying to capture raw emotion, which really would have worked better in the battle sequences, just to give an example. Instead of showing us middle earth from flying Nazgul perspective, and close-ups upon close-ups of orc hordes, I think it would have been wiser to show us the fear of men, and to opt for a perhaps more understated approach to the enemy. Spielberg is a good example of a director who actually understands this really well.

I think Alan Lee as an illustrator has given us perhaps the most artistically profound renditions of Tolkien's world. The great thing about his work is, it is artistically and aesthetically mature, and belongs to a world of myth, not fantasy. Jackson's LotR trilogy has become an action-fantasy spectacular. I think the first film was probably the most successful, for relying more on character-presentation and interplay than visual show.

And my comments on Shore as a composer simply concern Shore as a craftsman within a symphonic tradition, and it is very obvious that Shore isn't a skilled composer in a classical sense. He is, for better or worse, a musician with a pop- and jazz background who studied a little at Berklee, and who has learned the ropes working for an industry that these days sadly doesn't promote musical artistry. Williams, along with Previn and Goldsmith, belongs to the Western Classical Tradition, through craft and scholastic heritage.

Oh, and to give a final answer to the initial question "Is Howard Shore The Most Original Composer Working Today?"

Absolutely, categorically and most definitively NO. He isn't even one of the most original composers working in film today.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I see.

[Marcus 390]

Greetings, Stef!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't ever....EVER call me Stef!

[Marcus 390]

I see.

May I call you "My Little Ray of Sunshine"?

[Alan 689]

Shore composed, orchestrated (something that Williams tends not to do) and conducted the scores to LOTR. I can not see how anyone could describe him as unskilled in a classical sense when you take this into consideration with 12+ hours of music for one project alone. Also Marcus, you state that Shore is of a jazz background as part of your argument. Is the same not true of Williams?

My opinion is that Shore is an original and skilled composer. I don’t consider myself an expert so I wont comment on how his originality compares to others.

[Quintus 5,399]

Shore composed, orchestrated (something that Williams tends not to do)

If you're lucky enough to have some sort of bunker in your garden, get inside it.

[Marcus 390]

Greetings Alan,

Williams certainly has a background in jazz as well, but he is mostly a classical musician, and studied composing with Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, who was one of the most prominent composers in pre-Mussolini Italy (his music, for those who haven't heard it, is a sort of lyrical mediant between Ravel and Prokofiev). And Williams always orchestrates everything, but in what is known as a "short score" (or condensed score), which means that it is up to the orchestration team to "blow it up to size". But no colors, no choices, are really left up to anyone other than Williams. Furthermore, Shore's orchestrations are very poor, very awkward-sounding. This is precisely one of the reasons I have given the assessment that I have of Shore's (lack of solid) craftsmanship. Also, his sense of line, counterpoint and harmony is weak and at a fairly low level.

Mind you, I never meant to criticize having a jazz background!

[Alan 689]

I dont have a bunker!!! *looks around in panic*. Help! lol

[Marcus 390]

Relax, Alan! You are safe, no harm shall come to you! And with diplomatic guidance, you will hopefully learn the truth about Williams' orchestrational efforts!

[gkgyver 1,645]

I won't post too much here because I just know I'd get carried away

I think The Departed sounds brilliant *and* inspired, and whether Shore is the most original film composer working today or not, something like this is rare today.

[Alan 689]

If I'm wrong, I'll gladly learn the truth.

[Marcus 390]

Trust me, his sketches are perfectly detailed. I think I'll read a little from "Dracula End Titles" at the piano tonight..

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Hell no. Far far from it. Bland and uninteresting yes. But original? Not at all.

[Henry B 50]

Shore is not bad at originality at all. But I've only heard Rings.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

I can think of very few, if any, directors better suited for LOTR than Jackson. Yes, his movies do have some flaws (primarily the dwarf humour and generally some out-of-place humour - PJ himself said he couldn't make a horror movie because he couldn't help turning the scenes into jokes), a few of them major (mostly in ROTK), but he did so many things right which hardly anyone else would have done.

If John Williams had written The Lord of the Rings, it would have been a John Williams score.

To me, the music Howard Shore wrote was a Lord of the Rings score.

Exactly.

As for Howard Shore being original... I never thought of it that way. His overall style may have a certain inherent originality, but he often stays rather close to that style.

[Ollie 1,059]

I would say Shore is as close to original as you will get these days.

I can't picture another composer even coming close to what Shore managed to accomplish with his LOTR scores. To dismiss him or the music so easily is ridiculous.

Williams and Goldsmith of the 70's early 80's could have pulled it off.

[Red 75]

Don't ever....EVER call me Stef!

Why the anger? Why don't you want to be called Stef?

[Damo 0]

What if Jackson picked John Williams instead of Howard Shore for LOTR...will the score still be sounded like a spielberg/williams score???

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

If nothing, Shore is a composer with a capacity for writing music with intellect that's quite frankly unmatched in this day and age.

His approach to Lord of the Rings could have been like John Williams' approach to the Star Wars scores, but instead he came up with a much more intelligent and restrained piece of work, and in the process he came up with something that lifts the picture and still works independent of the picture.

His overall style may have a certain inherent originality, but he often stays rather close to that style.

As does John Williams, as did Goldsmith...they all often stay close to their overall styles, so I can't fathom how you're getting at Shore being lesser because of that.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Yes.

[David Coscina 3]

Greetings Alan,

. Also, his sense of line, counterpoint and harmony is weak and at a fairly low level.

Mind you, I never meant to criticize having a jazz background!

Have you even heard The Aviator? That has got to be one of Shore's most contrapuntal scores ever. Don't judge Shore on his Lord of the Rings fare solely. He's had a long career before that you know.

I don't know why you say Shore's orchestrations sound bad. Is his voicings to your disliking? Have you heard his entire canon to make this assertion or are you basing it on his LOTR output only? I must disagree with almost everything you claimed in your post. Shore studied music formally and has a healthy knowledge of many 20th century masters. Just because he doesn't follow their footsteps step by step doesn't mean his bereft of skill or talent. He's written some remarkable music in the last 20 years including The Fly (superb orchestrations BTW and nice use of harmonies), Big (the Finale is as beautiful as anything I've heard), 7even, Naked Lunch, and many more.

Yes, Shore doesn't sound like Williams- THANK GOD. I only want John Williams to sound like John Williams. But Willams (who is my favorite composer) does borrow from classical repetoire, quite obviously in places. He develops things so much more mind you but I wouldn't ever say he's the most original composer. He does have a style and an amazing sense of harmony (unmatched currenty). But orchestrational skill or fluidity wasn't the point of this post. It was whether Shore is original or not. Not if he's boring or inept or whatever.

I would say Shore is as close to original as you will get these days.

I can't picture another composer even coming close to what Shore managed to accomplish with his LOTR scores. To dismiss him or the music so easily is ridiculous.

Williams and Goldsmith of the 70's early 80's could have pulled it off.

Hey Mark, you know what I'd love to see- a Godzilla or Kaiju film directed by Cronenberg and scored by Shore. That would be cool Just imagine a Shore Godzilla score or Rodan! If anyone could do the spirit of Akiru Ifukube it would be Shore.

Of course this will never happen but we can dream eh?

[Ollie 1,059]

If I had the chance to make a monster film Shore would be one of my choices to score the film.

[David Coscina 3]

I think Shore imbues the same characteristics of Ifukube- doesn't feel the need to Mickey-Mouse the action and play through the scene in musical terms. Not that I'm slighting Williams' efforts because I really love what he did with War of the Worlds (which is as close to a Kaiju score that he'll probably get to).

I think Goldenthal or Corigliano would be other candidates for North American Kaiju composer. OT- I heard Costner wanted to remake DaiMajin- Shore would have been interesting to tap for that project.

[Damo 0]

I swear to god Howard Shore seriously he need to do more major films to do more epic scores other then LOTR...At that young age... it is a pretty damn good attempt for the LOTR and a very successful accepted score ...compared to his other movie scores...How did he managed to get his score rejected for King Kong after doing amazing score for LOTR considering he and Jackson having argument with some scenes for King Kong...

[King Mark 3,625]

He didn't look that young when I saw him.

anyways now that he's scored LotR he'll return to his usual obscurity.Only JW can be great for a long time.

K.M.

[David Coscina 3]

um, he's not young. He's 62 years old.

[Damo 0]

Whatever...he younger then John Williams though...about 12 years younger...

[Marcus 390]

Fiery Angel,

Why the impression that I'm judging Shore only based on his work on LotR? I think that is some of his least interesting work. I much prefer his work for Cronenberg. I'm not very impressed with his writing, not in the Aviator or elsewhere. But I do think he has come up with interesting dramatic and textural approaches for Cronenberg's films.

What I dislike in his orchestrations is simply that they sound "bad": He writes very awkwardly, and to poor effect, instrumentally speaking. A good example would be his horn writing; he seems to think that low horns equal trombones and high horns equal trumpets, which gives everything a muddy and frequently forced sound. I also think he is very harmonically limited, and that his linear and contrapuntal writing sound forced, wooden... It is perfectly obvious that he isn't someone with a deeper understanding of classical craft, but rather one who emulates "symphonic sounds", and not very successfully. Have you ever heard his orchestral music live? It really doesn't work! I much prefer Shore when he doesn't try to be epic or symphonic. He simply doen't size up well in that idiom when compared to better, more talented and skillful colleagues.

And let's not try to compare him with Williams!

[Damo 0]

It would be interesting how John Williams would write the score for LOTR though...especially for the theme for the black riders....and Mordor theme....and the Hobbit theme....but it could turn out just as similar to Howard Shore

John Williams music for LOTR could be more effective especially the evil side and would make it a lot more scarier then Howard shore....

[Incanus 5,713]

Shore is an interesting composer among many that I listen to these days. I can't say that he is THE MOST ORIGINAL composer working today but he is original. And he definitely has a distinctive musical voice of his own. Some of his work I like some I am not a great fan of. I can't make any musicological observations about his style as I have no expertice in that area but when it comes to liking some music those observations don't usually come into the equation with me. If I like some music I like it and if I don't I don't.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

orchestrated (something that Williams tends not to do)

I thought its well known that Williams' orchestrators are practically not more than copyists?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What I dislike in his orchestrations is simply that they sound "bad": He writes very awkwardly, and to poor effect, instrumentally speaking. A good example would be his horn writing; he seems to think that low horns equal trombones and high horns equal trumpets, which gives everything a muddy and frequently forced sound.

He writes differntly then what you have been used too or have been taught.

You are sooo conventional, anyone who doesn't conform, who thinks outside the box is wrong in your eyes.

[Marcus 390]

My Little Ray Of Sunshine,

I really think you are a little too quick to judge my tastes and standards here. Have you heard my music?

Actually, I find nothing unconventional or "outside the box" about Shore's orchestrations at all, but rather a poor judgement of effect. Shore is not a very sophisticated composer, you know...

Also: Are you sure you're qualified to discuss a topic such as orchestration?

[Richard Penna 3,671]

Well, aren't we feeling modest today Marcus?

Outside LotR, I'm not really a huge fan of Shore's work, but what I admire about him is his ability to create interesting music that doesn't rely on endlessly restating whole themes. Take Farewell to Lorien for example - an amazing choral piece with barely any thematic statements at all, yet I consider it to be one of the most beautiful moments in the whole trilogy.

Thematically, I don't consider him in the same class as Williams or the other 'supercomposers', but given the right film and emotional attachment I think he can produce astounding work.

[David Coscina 3]

My Little Ray Of Sunshine,

I really think you are a little too quick to judge my tastes and standards here. Have you heard my music?

Actually, I find nothing unconventional or "outside the box" about Shore's orchestrations at all, but rather a poor judgement of effect. Shore is not a very sophisticated composer, you know...

Also: Are you sure you're qualified to discuss a topic such as orchestration?

Steef may not be but I am. I have also heard Shore's LOTR live and I thought his orchestrations worked well. I do think Shore has been influenced by the mid-20th century composers some of whom liked to work with lower ranges, such as Penderecki- in fact, listen to any Polish composer from the mid 50's on and you hear a lot of low string writing that sounds, well, muddy, because of the overtones. However, I don't think many people would claim that Penderecki or Gorecki or Kilar are poor orchestrators.

Marcus, I'm not arguing that Shore is on the same level as Williams in terms of the pure mechanics of composing- frankly, nobody is. But Williams does tend to draw from a certain period of Western music (late romantic) although he has diverge on great scores like Sleepers, War of the Worlds, Images, Close Encounters. The way he puts his music together frankly astonishes me. And I would be lying if I said I wasn't influenced by him in my own music. But I think equating Shore with poor musicianship is perhaps a little naive. His music knowledge is extremely deep- please refer to a great interview he gave in the book THE SCORE by Michael Schelle.

Incidentally, what have you composed? I'm not being confrontational I'm sincerely curious.

-D