Trumpeteer 302 Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 I recently joined a discussion over at FSM where they are arguing that the "love" theme in "The Empire Strikes Back" is actually Han's theme. Here's what some people have said about it:From Spacehunter:I've discovered that Han does, in fact, have his own theme. It's a variation on the love theme. Same melody, but slightly different rythym. The liner notes for the 2-disc set even mention "Han Solo's theme" and "Solo's theme" while talking about the track "Escape In The Millennium Falcon." It's basically the cue that intercuts with Vader's theme while Han is trying to get the ship to start as the snowtroopers are closing in on them, and it also closes out the track as Luke spots the Falcon making it's escape.I've just started listening to the entire score, and I noticed it also appears early on in "The Ice Planet Hoth" during the moment where Luke is talking to Han over his communicator. I'll be listening to see if it appears anywhere else in the score.So Han Solo does have a theme, even if it is just a variation on a shared one.And from Azahid: I wanted to rekindle this topic again since John Williams and George Lucas have openly declared 'Across the Stars' as the FIRST official love theme.Which concludes with the obvious discovery that the Love theme from Empire introduced when Luke and Han are on the Tantuans.It is basically HAN SOLO's theme.During EMPIRE its Hán Solo who pursues the courtship of Leia and since he's the main catalyst to the romance and so he dominates the situation and accurately warrants the theme.It is at the same time symbolic of a romance which is alluded to both Leia and Han but it is essentially Han's Theme.It now makes sense in the cliamtic scene at teh end of EMPIRE when Han's body is whisked on Slave One and with Leia and co blasting away.Hans theme is AGAIN reprised in Jedi when he is searching for Leia.The theme occurs and symblises the romantic relationship.And then here's what I said:Outside of its initial introduction when Luke is talking to Han at the beginning of ESB, I have never heard the theme played when the scene is only about Han. The scenes you refer to above are linked to Leia as well, even if one or the other is not physically in the scene.So I remain convinced it's a love theme for the two. Han's motif is part of the Rebel Fanfare.Here's where you Williams devotees come in..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 That is NOT Han's theme. Come on DO YOU REALLY think that a bad ass like Han Solo would have such a soft theme?? I am not knocking the theme its awesome! All I am saying is is that if Han did have a theme it would be a rousing adventure piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 All I am saying is is that if Han did have a theme it would be a rousing adventure piece.Isn't Solo's theme the Raiders March?! :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted September 12, 2002 Author Share Posted September 12, 2002 That is NOT Han's theme. Come on DO YOU REALLY think that a bad ass like Han Solo would have such a soft theme?? I am not knocking the theme its awesome! All I am saying is is that if Han did have a theme it would be a rousing adventure piece.Like the Rebel Fanfare, as I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 I agree, it does not fit the character of Han at all. I know he can be a sensitive guy, but c'mon.Ray Barnbsury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewdog1 50 Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 That poster from FSM may have a point about Han's theme that may be heard on Hoth. It's probably more of a quick fanfare than anything. Maybe even Hoth's theme. There's someting out there. Illusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 Anyways, Williams rescoring the Old trilogy is an opportunity to compose a theme for han... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross 1 Posted September 13, 2002 Share Posted September 13, 2002 In the interview that was linked on this board yesterday, Williams talked about the Han Solo music. However, he referred to the rest of themes as themes, not music.-ROSS, who wonders where that thread went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 From Spacehunter:I've discovered that Han does, in fact, have his own theme. It's a variation on the love theme. Same melody, but slightly different rythym. The liner notes for the 2-disc set even mention "Han Solo's theme" and "Solo's theme" while talking about the track "Escape In The Millennium Falcon." It's basically the cue that intercuts with Vader's theme while Han is trying to get the ship to start as the snowtroopers are closing in on them, and it also closes out the track as Luke spots the Falcon making it's escape.I've just started listening to the entire score, and I noticed it also appears early on in "The Ice Planet Hoth" during the moment where Luke is talking to Han over his communicator. I'll be listening to see if it appears anywhere else in the score.So Han Solo does have a theme, even if it is just a variation on a shared one.Bull crap,Han Solo and The Princess is a shared theme,Williams has variated and changed notes in all SW themes he wrote,that doesn't make any one for another character.As for Lucas saying Across the Stars is the first "love theme",it just shows his music memory is impared.And Williams considers a "love theme" as a form of structure in a piece,therefore "Leia's theme","Yoda's theme"and Luke and Leia" are all love themes to him(he said that somewhere,forget where).K.M.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 Au contraire mon ami!!!Han Solo and the Princess is just that, Han Solo and the Princess, not just Han. There is one major musical reason. Williams never uses the "feminine" leap of a sixth, whether minor or major for a male character. A male theme if it has a leap, is usually a fifth. The dominant. It makes it more forceful and masculin. Leia, Marion, Across the Stars, Han Solo and the Princess, etc etc etc, are feminine themes, or shared "love" themes. They start with a major or minor sixth. In conclusion, that theme cannot be Han's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 But if the theme is played as Han's character is introduced in Empire then it can be interpreted as being Han's theme, couldn't it?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scissorhands 16 Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 Didn't Lucas say something like: "Five scores/films, and we didn't have still a love theme". So we can suppose Across the Stars is the first love theme, and Han and Leia only Han's theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted September 14, 2002 Share Posted September 14, 2002 It doesn;t make sense musically. That is a feminine theme!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted September 14, 2002 Author Share Posted September 14, 2002 Didn't Lucas say something like: "Five scores/films, and we didn't have still a love theme". I'm using that quote to prove that you guys (and Lucas) still don't get it. Here's another way of looking at it:When Luke and Han are communicating on Hoth at the beginning and we hear that "theme" begin to play, he says, "Censors are in place, I'm going back."Use of the theme there indicates that the reason he's in a rush to go back is to see Princess Leia, as we see (after talking to Chewie, he walks into the control room and the first person he notices is her). When viewed in this light, the theme relates to Leia, even though she is not seen, as it is used in a couple of other instances later in the film (the chase to Slave I, the end music). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Isn't Solo's theme the Raiders March?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Potato, potatoTomato, tomatoYou guys would argue about the proper color of poop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 purple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 poop.What's that? "Censors are in place, I'm going back." So that's Han was doin'! Putting those 'person-that-cut-the-movies' in Hoth as a punishment?Shame he left the critics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted September 16, 2002 Author Share Posted September 16, 2002 When Luke and Han are communicating on Hoth at the beginning and we hear that "theme" begin to play, he says, "Censors are in place, I'm going back."Oops. I meant "sensors."And leave the critics alone.Jeff -- aspiring critic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 !!"Censors are offline!" -- and could we keep 'em that way?WARNING: TECHNOBABBLE BELOWHey Ocelot,You are right in that very often JW's male themes begin with an ascending or descending fifth to the dominant (and by extension due to inversion, an ascending or descending fourth). But both of Vader's themes (the motif from ANH and the march) start, after a repeated initial pitch, with a leap of a third, minor and major respectively, which by extension is a sixth, which you said was a "feminine" interval?!So, in addition to being harmonically and melodically simplistic, your argument is terribly gender bound.Oh, maybe Monica wouldn't have been so mean to David in A.I. if her theme hadn't started with two dominants :wow: But Schindler's theme started off that way and he was a way cooler dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Isn't Solo's theme the Raiders March?!It should be!Anyways, Williams rescoring the Old trilogy is an opportunity to compose a theme for han...WOW! Luke actually found a good reason for Williams to re-score the OT. Excellent job Mr. Skywalker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Oh, maybe Monica wouldn't have been so mean to David in A.I. if her theme hadn't started with two dominants :wow: But Schindler's theme started off that way and he was a way cooler dude. Schindler's was a caring dude, that's a female quality. Monica was like a god like figure to the boy, that's a male quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Williams never uses the "feminine" leap of a sixth, whether minor or major for a male character. A male theme if it has a leap, is usually a fifth. The dominant. It makes it more forceful and masculin. Schindler's was a caring dude, that's a female quality. Monica was like a god like figure to the boy, that's a male quality. Ren, Mari, are you getting this?? :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Wait a second. You are making me out to be a sexist!!!!!!! I am Gay for crying out loud. If any male in this forum is in tune with his feminine side it's me!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I said was that MOST OF THE TIME, John Williams uses a fourth or fifth at the begining of a male theme, a sixth when doing a femiinine theme, and that is because when learning music theory, they are thought of in that way. It's just a device we use when we compose!!! I didn't think anyone was that sensitive, HONESTLY!!! And when talking about strong, it is strength in the musical sense. It makes a stronger statement to start or finish with a fifth. Not the strength of a man as oposed to a woman. HAH! Please!!!! Women have a much higher pain tollerance just for a start. And you should see the women in myy Krav Maga classes kick guys buts!!! Police officers Butts too!!!Using a third in the minor key that strongly in The Imperial MARCH does not count. That was used in a completely different way. Indiana Jones theme doesn't start with a fifth or a fourth either, but in general, a sixth is what he uses for feminine themes and for love themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Ocelot, you are a very intelligent poster, one of my favs and definitely not a sexist, but your rebuttal just digs you deeper into the old patriarchal trenches of music theory, with its associations of the masculine and feminine with the dominant and subdominant, and with strong and weak cadences, etc.I don't disagree with categorizing harmonic motion, especially JW's use of it since he as much as anyone adheres to classical models of harmony (as well as extending those models). Yes, a leap of a fifth is a strong statement, but more than anything else it probably has to do with the natural spectrum of the harmonic series, and the fact that the simple harmonic ration of 3:2 (=a fifth) is the most basic harmonic interval there is.Let's see, and god created man first, right?I am not sensitive to notions of gender in music theory. They are just patently ridiculous to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Feminine here refers to a music theory term which goes very far back in music theory. Basically, it refers to harmonic (and thus intervallic) motion. If the motion is I - V or V - I, then it is masculine because it is "strong". Any other motion is feminine, or "weak". Composers seek to find a balance between these two motions.It may just be a coincidence that JW's themes for female characters begin with weak harmonic motion, but who knows?Simply put: the musical terms feminine and masculine have nothing to do with gender and are historically accurate. However, they have been replaced by the terms strong and weak. Weak does not mean bad, but rather not tonic - dominant (example: plagal cadence is weak, authentic cadence is strong). In other words, ocelot is not sexist.Your favorite theorist - me :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 No no no, I'm not saying that it is how I compose, merely that I do employ it sometimes it to make a strong statement. I don't go by antique rules at all, but they come in handy as a basic guidline when I am stuck.I was merely pointing out what Williams was doing in my opinion, that it isn't Han's theme. However no matter what I say, I seem to be digging myself ito the trenches, which is where I shall remain for the rest of the day. Must go to the gym and work on shoulders and abs now. Will talk more later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 The terms are of course historically accurate, but I see no reasonable place for them in contemporary language. Anyway, I think ocelot is barking up the wrong tree. I agree with KM, Williams is just forgetting his own trivia: "Han Solo and The Princess" is how the theme was first labelled on the ESB LP, with the accompanying notes referring to a love theme.Now is this theme used to refer only to Han at times? Yes. Is Luke's theme used to refer to things other than Luke? Yoda's? You can speculate all day, you will never find the rhyme and reason of JW's SW leitmotif usage. And the new trilogy is gonna make things even more jumbled, so just sit back if you can and enjoy the musical ride... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 But I never said it wasn't for Han and Leia, it is, but refering to their love, not for Han alone. Of course he uses it in Empire for Han sometimes, it is evident, but I don;t think it is Hans theme, however, I might be completely wrong. It just doesn't make sense, so.... woof?! or is it bark?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Simply put: the musical terms feminine and masculine have nothing to do with gender and are historically accurate. However, they have been replaced by the terms strong and weak. Weak does not mean bad, but rather not tonic - dominant (example: plagal cadence is weak, authentic cadence is strong). In other words, ocelot is not sexist.You contradict your self here, because strong and weak is what culture thinks of male and female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 You contradict your self here, because strong and weak is what culture thinks of male and female.Mornh is lucky there are no Feminazis around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Laugh it up, fuzzball. Oops, sorry I mean Wedge. Wedgie boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Laser brain would be a more appropriate insult! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Laser brain would be a more appropriate insult! Purist is even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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