JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 There seems to be an overwhelming thought on this board that all of John's works are masterpieces. I don't agree with that, but I just wondered how everything is always great. John is afterall human. Post your thoughts, tell me why I am wrong. As the reigning old fogey on the board, Im opinionated as hell, but I know John's music as well as anyone, and I cannot hand out the words masterpiece, and declare everthing as great as many here do. There are levels in my mind that John reaches, and on rare occasion John has exceeded himself, and created what I consider his true masterpieces. I also think that John has failed on several notable occassions.Discuss amongst yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 The answer is no."Hook" is definitely not a masterpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Absolutely not....I do not believe he has created a masterpiece in several years, unfortunately. However, he has many under his belt.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 No not everything he writes is a masterpiece and while his modern works aren't as good as his past scores I still find them enjoyable. I do think A.I., HP SS, HP POA and Memoirs Of A Geisha are top notch efforts by Williams and belong up there with past efforts.And they still top most of the junk being passed off as film scores these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg1138 3 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 No: Like any composer, he has bad patches and good patches....in my opinion his bad patches are rare but they do happen! Always, Menoirs of a Geisha, Chamber of Secrets - those are the immediate bad patches that spring to mind....along with most of Stepmom and Stanley and Iris...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 No. That's because if you consider everything JW writes a masterpiece, then the word loses its meaning. Of all the works he's created, those that are unforgettable and top-notch are masterpieces. The rest is just great -- or not so great -- stuff.In recent years, for me A.I., Minority Report, Harry Potter I-III, Star Wars I-III, Memoirs of a Geisha, and Munich are masterpieces. The Terminal, The Patriot, Catch Me If You Can, War of the Worlds are still good, but not masterpieces. Of course, there's no accounting for taste, so that's why I said for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 No, of course not. But I don't think he's ever written anything that's truely bad.John- who considers Sorcerer's Stone and Revenge of the Sith recent masterpieces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 No not everything he writes is a masterpiece and while his modern works aren't as good as his past scores I still find them enjoyable. I do think A.I., HP SS, HP POA and Memoirs Of A Geisha are top notch efforts by Williams and belong up there with past efforts.And they still top most of the junk being passed off as film scores these days.Mr. Olivarez speaks the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredo 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Just reading through this thread points out how futile it is to discuss this. One person feels a score is a masterpeice, one person feels that same score is a poor effort by Williams. The important thing here is that somewhere at some time Williams wrote some music that we formed a connection with. Which peice of music is different for everybody and we can debate till the end of time which of Williams' scores are masterpeices and which ones are not, but it will get us no where. His music, all of it, is what brings us together as a community, and that is what is so special about John Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaid72000 0 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Just reading through this thread points out how futile it is to discuss this. One person feels a score is a masterpeice, one person feels that same score is a poor effort by Williams. The important thing here is that somewhere at some time Williams wrote some music that we formed a connection with. Which peice of music is different for everybody and we can debate till the end of time which of Williams' scores are masterpeices and which ones are not, but it will get us no where. His music, all of it, is what brings us together as a community, and that is what is so special about John Williams.I agree with this in that there are some great works including: Star Wars(1977), The Empire Strikes Back(1980) Raiders of the Lost Ark(1981), Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade(1989), Alway(1989), Home Alone(1990), Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone(2001), Memoirs of a Geisha(2005). There are many others I would put down, but this would be a long list. JWFan members can make there own favorites list. You do not have to agree with me and my list, but I voted "Yes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthehand 3 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 No. While I've always ackowledge his Close Encounterses and The Furys, I'm equally aware of John Goldfarb and Thomas and the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I do not think everything Williams writes is a mind blowing masterpiece. But there is no ultimate truth about the quality of Williams' or any music. Only opinions. It becomes tiresome to have to prove the merits of individual scores to different people as if there would be some formula or justification that makes a score universally brilliant.I happen to think that several of Williams' recent scores are masterpieces and that's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivier 5 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Of course not. No composer writes a masterprice every time.Only fanboys think so, and want Williams to score everything and anything and consider that any score by anyone else is worthless, especially in the case of Harry Potter.Pity we have to state such obvious things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fommes 153 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Yes!Especially his most underrated scores!Like Legend of Zelda and Back to the Future!Well perhaps not Star Wars, you know, especially after that marathon-thingy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I voted also YES and I also mean it.Mr. Williams' way to put notes after another just pleases me that much that I like to call his music masterfull. I mean scores from Sugarland until now. I found 1 or 2 scores that does't pleaseme (but I have heard some to praise them) so it's all in the ear of the listener.Incanus wrote:It becomes tiresome to have to prove the merits of individual scores to different people as if there would be some formula or justification that makes a score universally brilliant.It's all there.And Marc , watch Geisha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Just reading through this thread points out how futile it is to discuss this. One person feels a score is a masterpeice, one person feels that same score is a poor effort by Williams. The important thing here is that somewhere at some time Williams wrote some music that we formed a connection with. Which peice of music is different for everybody and we can debate till the end of time which of Williams' scores are masterpeices and which ones are not, but it will get us no where. His music, all of it, is what brings us together as a community, and that is what is so special about John Williams.then why even bother to reply, this is afterall a discussion board. Get off the fence and develop an opinion, stay out of the gray.and marc yes watch Geisha, especially if you like tedium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthehand 3 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 and marc yes watch Geisha, especially if you like tedium....or to see just how well a score can carry a film, and to be reminded that its not a lost art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 ok your point is well made, the score is better than the film, but that is true of many if not most of John's scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Of course not every Williams score is a master piece. That is a rather rediculous thought. However, I firmly believe that there is good in every JW score and that none of them are truely bad. Many of John's modern stuff deserves to be placed among the pantheon of great John Williams scores, but may not be good enough to be considered master pieces.Rabbit--who considers Hook to be a master piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Rabbit--who considers Hook to be a master pieceThis is not a surprise.(but yes,it is a MP)It is not ridicilous though that all Williams' pieces are masterfull.It depends where to compare.Many thinks here that ID4 is a great score.I find it the most laughable and stupid but hey , so is the movie.There are mediocre composers and great ones , it's always been like that , choose your favorite.Edit: ID4 for GM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 You mean ID4 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 NO, but as i said, it doesnt mean all other composers can top him. Only few do...did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,687 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 My simple opinion - absolutely not. You could not say this with any composer and JW is no exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 NO, but as i said, it doesnt mean all other composers can top him. Only few do...did.And who those might be...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Just to see that eveyone has their own opinions and that sometimes our choices are the same.I think that Williams' masterpieces are:Jane EyreJawsStar WarsClose encounters of the 3rd KindSuperman: The MovieThe Empire Strikes BackRaiders of the Lost ArkE.T. The extra-terrestrialReturn of the JediIndiana Jones and the Last CrusadeHookJurassic Park (this, im not so sure, but the score is so close to my heart, introducing me to Williams and film scores [along many other people here] - it was the Star Wars of the new generation, even if its not a masterpiece per se, its influence will go beyond its time) Schindler's ListThe Phantom MenaceArtificial IntelligenceMemoirs of a GeishaNO, but as i said, it doesnt mean all other composers can top him. Only few do...did.And who those might be...?the great 'Classical' and 'film golden age' composers and Jerry Goldsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,263 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I'm sorry but this is jsut a trully silly question. Obviously, not every single score is a masterpiece. His top masterpiece is naturally his gorgeus Cello Concerto. As for film scores, while some of my favourites are from the 70's and 80's, I do find that his recent output his quiet superior and musical more mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Just to see that eveyone has their own opinions and that sometimes our choices are the same.I think that Williams' masterpieces are:Jane EyreJawsStar WarsClose encounters of the 3rd KindSuperman: The MovieThe Empire Strikes BackRaiders of the Lost ArkE.T. The extra-terrestrialReturn of the JediIndiana Jones and the Last CrusadeHookJurassic Park (this, im not so sure, but the score is so close to my heart, introducing me to Williams and film scores [along many other people here] - it was the Star Wars of the new generation, even if its not a masterpiece per se, its influence will go beyond its time) Schindler's ListThe Phantom MenaceArtificial IntelligenceMemoirs of a GeishaWere is The Lost World?Were is 1941?This list is an atrocity!I'm sorry but this is jsut a trully silly question. Obviously, not every single score is a masterpiece. His top masterpiece is naturally his gorgeus Cello Concerto. As for film scores, while some of my favourites are from the 70's and 80's, I do find that his recent output his quiet superior and musical more mature.Mature meaning, a bit boring at times, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 'The Screaming Woman'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,263 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 In no particular order:Cello ConcertoET The Extra-TerrestrialAccidental TouristMemoirs of a GeishaAngela's AshesBassoon ConcertoEmpire Strikes BackRaiders of the Lost ArkStanley and IrisClose Encounters of the Third KindMight be forgeting something... But that's my about the best I can think of.Mature meaning, a bit boring at times, right?You gotta be kindin me, right?Mature meaning much more interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I could swear i created a new topic.Must have been dreaming, its too late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg1138 3 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Just readin through this thread - I must be missing something......why does everyone swoon over "Memoirs of a Geisha"? It's Williams worst work for years, in my humble opinion!! I have tried and tried, really I have, but it's just plain boring!! Much like the film........but it does go to illustrate what has already been stated - a Masterpiece is in the ear of the beholder....Greg - who considers ID4 to be a Masterpiece..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 EDITEDKeyboard problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scissorhands 16 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hornist, with that exquisite taste, I don't understand how you don't like Sleepers, at least as much as the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 You gotta be kindin me, right?Mature meaning much more interesting!If we were talking women then I'd agree with you, but not music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,263 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 You gotta be kindin me, right?Mature meaning much more interesting!If we were talking women then I'd agree with you, but not music.Great answer Not sure if I fully agree with you... at least not in every case... Sometimes youth has his own merits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 BSMwFpI,lhlöäSorry, what the hell are those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Balck Sunday, Midway, Family Plot, and I,lhlöä. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 whats the last one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Composer_Fan 2 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I can't imagine why someone would vote yes. A perfect record of masterpieces is an impossible feat to achieve. John has written many masterpieces, in both film and concert works, but he's also missed the mark here and there. Also, with film music, not every cue is going to require a masterpiece. Sometimes he'll just have to write dull underscore because that's what is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I thought each artist was only allowed to one have one masterpiece in his lifetime - the perfect work that perfectly displays his style and mastering on the technique. In fact, even the term "master piece" comes from the Middle Ages, where a student of a Guild would stop being an apprentice by proving himself with a piece of work that the guild members were supposed to evaluate and then allow his membership on the Guild (I'd need to check on that story, btw). The term has evolved to cover all the works in the artist's lifetime but, as far as I know, each artist has only one masterpiece.It's very difficult to point out what Williams' masterpiece is, but I think we're using the term a bit too loosely here. What I think we're referring to is "outstanding piece of work" or something to that extent. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Reading some posts around this place, I would never believe the poll's results thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 but the discussion has been very good so far, I was hoping for Miguel's voice of reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I guess a masterpiece is just a great artist's best work. Nobody thinks it is all his best work, but most of his scores are a masterpiece to somebody here. There's no "Masterpiece-ometer". It's just more and more opinion. I haven't encountered anybody here who loves every cue by Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Sorry. Same keyboard problem that Stefan had... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredo 0 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Just reading through this thread points out how futile it is to discuss this. One person feels a score is a masterpeice, one person feels that same score is a poor effort by Williams. The important thing here is that somewhere at some time Williams wrote some music that we formed a connection with. Which peice of music is different for everybody and we can debate till the end of time which of Williams' scores are masterpeices and which ones are not, but it will get us no where. His music, all of it, is what brings us together as a community, and that is what is so special about John Williams.then why even bother to reply, this is afterall a discussion board. Get off the fence and develop an opinion, stay out of the gray.I voted no if thats what your asking. Essentially I agree with your argument, Joe, that Williams is human and it is impossible for everything of his to be a masterpeice. I also dont think I was standing in any gray area, my post was filled with opinion. My opinion, which apparently wasnt clear, was that where I think John Williams has written a masterpeice, others think he has written a non-masterpeice(like our respective opinions on Memoirs of a Geisha). Individually, as the poll tends to show, people generally think Williams has some non-masterpeices. However, I think if you were to list all of JW's music and have people rate it "Masterpeice" or "Not a Masterpeice", all of his work would recieve a few Masterpeice votes. Although this may not tell you "why you are wrong" as you asked in your post, but it does explain why you may have thought that here on this John Williams Fan board everyone thought that everything Williams writes is a masterpeice. Its all relative and not you nor I are at all capable of truely decerning whether or not a peice of music is a masterpeice or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Honestly I think the only three scores that I truely believe Williams has done are true masterpieces are the following...Superman, Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.I don't believe everything he does is a masterpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,263 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 but the discussion has been very good so far, I was hoping for Miguel's voice of reasonMeaning? I'm hardly the voice of reason in anything...Anyway, let me had this to my previous post: I'm fully unable to point out a masterpiece on Williams ouvre... a single one. Williams voice touches so deeply within my heart, and while some reach deeper, everyone has a special place in my heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 True, but you are not as dogmatic as Joe, or me for instance.Sometimes you even listen to and consider the opinions of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 The answer is "Of course not".While I adore so many of his scores (and some of his more serious works), I still consider most of them to be "merely" craft, sometimes exceptional, but still craft.As far as I ma concerned, three best JW's scores are "Empire Strikes Back", "ET" and "Schindler's List". They are over the top, better than his other great works.However, while it is not like this that everything JW touches turns into gold, his mediocre works are often better than mediocre works of many other composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 The answer is No, but that's obvious to everybody. Joe simply created this thread as a way to diss all of JW's recent stuff. If you think anything JW has written in the past 3-4 years is great, you must be a gullible fool, who'll say anything written by JW is a masterpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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