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The Big Bad Star Trek XI Thread


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I just saw it, and I liked it. The many references to the original series were a nice addition.

One thing I didn't understand--after the future Spock was dumped on that ice planet, why did he just stay there waiting for Vulcan to be destroyed? He knew there was a base 14 km from his cave, right?

Yeah i did'nt understand the need of having spock saying that. Kirk could have had a communication device and discover it himslef and tell spock.

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Anyways regarding comments as to why Nero didn't go to Romulus and warn his people about future events. Supposedly there's a deleted scene that got filmed...we saw a small bit of it during trailers...but after the Kelvin rammed into the Nerada the ship was heavily damaged and the Klingons managed to capture Nero and his crew and held them on Rura Penthe. During the trailer we saw Nero fighting off two Klingon guards and supposedly during those 25 years they were held captive on Rura Penthe but one day managed to escape and destroyed a Klingon armada (the 47 ships) after they retook their vessel back.

Holy crap! That's VERY interested and DEFINITELY should have been left in the final cut! Would definitely help to explain some inconsistencies!

Delorean90, you have yet again lived up to your custom member title. :P

+1

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It may have dragged the film down a bit.

That first shot of Nero when we see him 25 years later says more than an added scene would have.

Of course that's why we have DVD releases, so the extra stuff can be added.

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The score is growing on me even more after I saw the film. I still don't like the chorus in the climax, though. Man, I really want to see this movie again but can't afford to dish out cash to see it more often. I feel like there was so much to take in. The best thing about this movie is taht it had it's own "feel." It wasn't just a movie, there was a bit of--well, magic, I guess--throughout the whole thing. Flaws with the plot and whatever aside, I think most people would agree that this "felt" like the best of Star Trek, despite being drastically different.

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If you listen to all the star trek main titles, the new one will certainly rank last. It's by far worse than even the tv main themes like voyager or deep space nine.

The score is just pushed by the good movie. So the story, acting, sound and visual effects overshadow the underwhelming music.

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If you listen to all the star trek main titles, the new one will certainly rank last. It's by far worse than even the tv main themes like voyager or deep space nine.

Being worse than Voyager isn't really a bad thing, after all, it is an amazing Jerry piece.

I find the score is growing on me heavily. And I love the main theme.

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Do the alternate reality Klingons have bumpy heads?

I believe so. There's a publicity still from Nero's escape from Rura Penthe. The Klingon guards are wearing helmets so you don't see their heads, but the helmets have the ridges. More spine like ridges though, so they might be closer to the smaller original cast movie ones than the huge Next Gen. etc. era ones.

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If you listen to all the star trek main titles, the new one will certainly rank last. It's by far worse than even the tv main themes like voyager or deep space nine.

Not for me, it doesn't. Goldsmith's and Horner's movie themes are great, but I was far more underwhelmed by some of the more traditional but rather tepid approaches brought into the franchise after the third film. Giacchino's theme may not be terribly original or unique, but there's something irresistible about it for me.

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Not for me, it doesn't. Goldsmith's and Horner's movie themes are great, but I was far more underwhelmed by some of the more traditional but rather tepid approaches brought into the franchise after the third film. Giacchino's theme may not be terribly original or unique, but there's something irresistible about it for me.

I prefer Eidelman's main theme, McCarthy's Main Theme and Jerry's First Contact main theme to it.

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As far as main themes go I think the new theme is the 4th or 5th best theme in the entire series.

Of course Goldsmith,Horner and Courage lead the way with their original themes but someother others can be a bit generic sounding at times.

Giacchino's theme is a Star Trek theme but it says Kirk more than it does the entire Star Trek universe, and that's what he intended.

I would suggest listening to the new interview in the latest FSM online, if you subscribe to it.

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It's does not signify the Enterprise, Kirk or Star Trek to me.

Which is exactly how I feel about the themes you mentioned. :angry: (Actually, I'm not familiar enough with First Contact to say that for sure, but I have no doubt about the other two.)

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Giacchino's theme is a Star Trek theme but it says Kirk more than it does the entire Star Trek universe, and that's what he intended.

Yes, it's much more intimate and personal, which is appropriate given the tone of the film.

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Giacchino's theme is a Star Trek theme but it says Kirk more than it does the entire Star Trek universe, and that's what he intended.

Yes, it's much more intimate and personal, which is appropriate given the tone of the film.

This movie is more intimate and personal than Star Trek II?

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As far as main themes go I think the new theme is the 4th or 5th best theme in the entire series.

Of course Goldsmith,Horner and Courage lead the way with their original themes but someother others can be a bit generic sounding at times.

Giacchino's theme is a Star Trek theme but it says Kirk more than it does the entire Star Trek universe, and that's what he intended.

I would suggest listening to the new interview in the latest FSM online, if you subscribe to it.

Just listened to it...it sounds nice, but it doesn't make the music any better than Zimmer's explanations for his Batman themes. I think the problem is not necessarily with the style (though I won't lie, I do think that it should be less aubdued), but more like what Steef has been staying: It sounds like it could be at home in any number of films, including the least distinguished RC score. It's doubly annoying because he surrounds it with some really terrific material. The main title is the most exciting titles I've seen in a long time, largely because of the music. The music leading up to it is great, the end of it is great...but the theme sucks up a lot of the energy of it. Spock's theme kicks ass. I also like the Nero material. Also, that theme is not at all Kirk's. Or, it's Kirk's theme in the same way that the main theme from Star Wars is Luke's theme: it's doing double-duty. It simply does not capture the mood of the film, to my ears.

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Giacchino has managed to put more references to other franchises in this soundtrack than Star Trek. :lol:

Rohan's Theme kicks in at 0:50 in Nero Fiddles, Narada Burns.

There's Return of the King in "Nero Death Experience," Speed Racer's "World's Worst Road Rage," the obvious Lost references, aaahhhhhhhhhhhh

*Hits head against wall*

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Zimmer's music is just bad and bland, but that has more to do with him as a composer. You can't take his two note Batman theme and use it effectively in in different situtions to reflect the mood of the scene. With Elfman & Goldenthal you could use their themes to reflect the different moods. Giacchino can do the same with his theme.

And I disagree, the theme fits the Star Trek universe perfectly.

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The old future was the one that happened when nothing from the future altered the past, therefore is the correct one.

And what about the millions of people nero killed, and their never born descendants?

Its like if in BTTF II they remained in the alternate 1985 because that is the only timeline the people in it know.

That's precisely how I interpret this movie. This Star Trek movie is as-if the alternate "Biff is king" 1985 was not rectified and stayed on to become the uncorrectable BTTF franchise. Except in that movie, the people who had first-hand knowledge of a time shift, Doc and Marty, also had the means to go back to a point in time before the skew, and correct it, via Delorean.

In this movie, the only people who have first-hand knowledge of a timeline skew, Spock Prime, Nero, and Nero's crew, are all powerless to go back in time to "correct" the timeline, because the black holes collapsed. The "crap science" red matter created black holes, not any time machine, and they came through time in a mining ship and a red matter control ship.

I suppose that Spock could have gone back in time, by asking Starfleet to slingshot a bunch of ships around the sun like he did singlehandedly in Star Trek IV, which still exists in his past as he experienced it...but he decided against it as being too much of a longshot to work, to defeat Nero the moment he emerged before destroying the Kelvin. Or illogical. Or -- OOPS, correcting the timeline is NOT what Paramount wants to do, they want their rebooted movie franchise. So do I.

I rather like the version of the movie without Nero being taken to Rura Penthe. It doesn't explain why an armada of 47 Klingon ships would be crushed so soon before the main battle of this movie, but it completely explains why Nero doesn't go to Romulus. He has to wait for Spock, who he knows is coming through.

Maybe Starfleet declared the battle site of the Kelvin to be a forbidden zone, like Talos IV, because all the survivors said there was an invincible ship waiting there. This is the TOS era, when they had silly things like "forbidden zones" around areas they couldn't challenge, and Starfleet decided based on the accounts and whatever footage they kept, that the whole fleet couldn't defeat Nero.

At any rate, Nero had to stick around to wait for the "crap science" red matter to come through. If the writers of this movie give Spock Prime half a heart and brain, he'll send a memo to the Romulus that still exists, and tell them their star is going to blow in 129 years. If not *shrug*.

I understand that interviews claim that this is an alternate universe, and not the "real" Star Trek timeline we knew for 40+ years. If that's important to you, that's great. But until it's made explicit on-screen, I choose to ignore this technicality. I would rather have this movie destroy the "real" Star Trek timeline and start over, just so that we invest a little more into these characters over the next few film installments. I'll explain.

We spent many hours becoming familiar with Shatner, Nimoy, and friends as our normal crew, and caring about them on their adventures. Then we had a mirror universe episode where we what their "evil" counterparts could do. Now that our goattee wearing actors had now become the bad guys, did we still care about them? Not really. Only Spock showed any hint of his "real" self, i.e. logic, which transcended universes. It's a better example in the mirror universe DS9 episodes, where we really find ourselves rooting for the evil characters, like Mirror Kira, to die, because they're threatening the lives of our "real" universe counterparts. Then there's the TNG mirror universe that finds thousands of alternate realities converging onto a single point, and total chaos ensues. One Enterprise-D from a Borg infested universe is even destroyed in order to save all the others.

So how does this new film franchise reboot fit into this mirror system? Is it our normal timeline, forever altered by an event far in the future but flung deep into the past? It's not the primary "mirror universe" because nobody's evil or wearing crafty goattees. And if it's one of a thousand infinite alternate realities running parallel to the "classic" TOS of yesteryear....then why bother?

The score was more effective onscreen than as standalone listening entertainment.

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In this movie, the only people who have first-hand knowledge of a timeline skew, Spock Prime, Nero, and Nero's crew, are all powerless to go back in time to "correct" the timeline, because the black holes collapsed.

If you rewatch TOS Episode 4, you will see that Spock prime knows exactly how to travel back in time with precision using the enterprise. He could easily correct the timeline if he could convince young Spock and crew, which would probably not be too hard given he got Kirk to become captain with such ease.

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In this movie, the only people who have first-hand knowledge of a timeline skew, Spock Prime, Nero, and Nero's crew, are all powerless to go back in time to "correct" the timeline, because the black holes collapsed.

If you rewatch TOS Episodes 4 and 5, you will see that Spock prime knows exactly how to travel back in time with precision using the enterprise. He could easily correct the timeline if he could convince young Spock and crew, which would probably not be too hard given he got Kirk to become captain with such ease.

First, I amended my post for two reasons, and I clarified this. I had forgotten about Spock's time travel to get the whales. And this movie exists solely on the basis that the timeline is NOT corrected, so that Paramount gets to make new movies with old characters.

Second, ok, by "TOS Episode 4," don't call it that, please. That's misleading on a grand scale. "TOS Episode 4" is either "The Naked Time" or "Mudd's Women," depending on how you define "4." You're referring to Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, which is a movie, not The Original Series. I don't call installments of Star Trek movies "episodes," because the movies generally do not tell a single coherent story arc of interdependent segments called "episodes." That's just the Star Wars fanboy in you tallking. :lol:

There also must come a point in Starfleet responsibility when time travel is frowned upon except in the most dire of circumstances. Like a Prime Directive, only with deeper consequences. Going back for the humpback whales was.....well, it was the only option. Earth was obviously doomed if they did not try. But going back in time to fix every single mistake that was ever made? Irresponsible use of resources. And the cost of failure the first time for not beating Nero in time was the destruction of Vulcan. But he was beaten. To go back in time to try to beat him earlier and save Vulcan is too big and too illogical a risk, because if they lose, Nero gets the red matter and conquers the known galaxy.

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Zimmer's music is just bad and bland, but that has more to do with him as a composer. You can't take his two note Batman theme and use it effectively in in different situtions to reflect the mood of the scene. With Elfman & Goldenthal you could use their themes to reflect the different moods. Giacchino can do the same with his theme.

I wasn't using Zimmer in commenting on the music- only commenting on the rationalization. Giacchino's explanation doesn't make the theme work any better.

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Well, if you don't like the music/theme at all in the first place, then no amount of reasoning is going to make you LIKE it. But IMO, Giacchino did an immensely better job of going with a less solidified approach and still making something substantial out of it.

Rohan's Theme kicks in at 0:50 in Nero Fiddles, Narada Burns.

Dude...it's just the first three notes.

And if it's any LOTR theme, it's Gondor, not Rohan.

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In this movie, the only people who have first-hand knowledge of a timeline skew, Spock Prime, Nero, and Nero's crew, are all powerless to go back in time to "correct" the timeline, because the black holes collapsed.

If you rewatch TOS Episodes 4 and 5, you will see that Spock prime knows exactly how to travel back in time with precision using the enterprise. He could easily correct the timeline if he could convince young Spock and crew, which would probably not be too hard given he got Kirk to become captain with such ease.

First, I amended my post for two reasons, and I clarified this. I had forgotten about Spock's time travel to get the whales. And this movie exists solely on the basis that the timeline is NOT corrected, so that Paramount gets to make new movies with old characters.

Second, ok, by "TOS Episode 4," don't call it that, please. That's misleading on a grand scale. "TOS Episode 4" is either "The Naked Time" or "Mudd's Women," depending on how you define "4." You're referring to Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, which is a movie, not The Original Series. I don't call installments of Star Trek movies "episodes," because the movies generally do not tell a single coherent story arc of interdependent segments called "episodes." That's just the Star Wars fanboy in you tallking. :lol:

There also must come a point in Starfleet responsibility when time travel is frowned upon except in the most dire of circumstances. Like a Prime Directive, only with deeper consequences. Going back for the humpback whales was.....well, it was the only option. Earth was obviously doomed if they did not try. But going back in time to fix every single mistake that was ever made? Irresponsible use of resources. And the cost of failure the first time for not beating Nero in time was the destruction of Vulcan. But he was beaten. To go back in time to try to beat him earlier and save Vulcan is too big and too illogical a risk, because if they lose, Nero gets the red matter and conquers the known galaxy.

Well, I would imagine that saving Vulcan would probably be as important as the mission in Star Trek IV. And I was referring to The Naked Time. This is the one where they discover time travel at the end using the Enterprise. I thought Episode 5 was actually the one where they travel to 1969, but it appears I am mistaken. Whatever the case, they used to travel through time at will and with precision. One would imagine that Spock prime might want to restore the original timeline in order to save Vulcan, his mom, etc. He put some effort into restoring his other self's friendship with Kirk.

I'll consider that it is possible to defeat Nero before he blows up Kirk's dad, and I figure that the JJ timeline will probably get messy very quickly, what with his "mystery box" approach to all things. Trek fans will probably yell for a turnaround after 3 movies wear out the welcome of the new timeline.

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Giacchino's explanation doesn't make the theme work any better.

Of course it doesn't. It's the music alone that's responsible for its own quality. Verbal explanations can inform the way you listen to it, but an amazing, lofty idea isn't worth squat unless you like the way it actually sounds. For some of us, this theme fortunately provides an enjoyable listening experience.

And good LOTR catch, Delorean90 - I know that's Gondor's theme, not Rohan's, but I wasn't thinking about it when I replied to Blumenkohl.

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Well, I would imagine that saving Vulcan would probably be as important as the mission in Star Trek IV. And I was referring to The Naked Time. I thought Episode 5 was actually the one where they travel to 1969, but it appears I am mistaken. Whatever the case, they used to travel through time at will and with precision. One would imagine that Spock prime might want to restore the original timeline in order to save Vulcan, his mom, etc. He put some effort into restoring his other self's friendship with Kirk.

I'll consider that it is possible to defeat Nero before he blows up Kirk's dad, and I figure that the JJ timeline will probably get messy very quickly, what with his "mystery box" approach to all things. Trek fans will probably yell for a turnaround after 3 movies wear out the welcome of the new timeline.

Spock Prime's words at the movie's close confirm that it is well with his soul what happened. He and the Vulcan survivors would repopulate and preserve their history. Even by the time of the events of TNG, Amanda would have been dead many years, or in such a decrepit state that keeping her alive would be illogical (think Encounter at Farpoint McCoy, but worse). Certainly he said goodbye to his mother "decades ago," but even though young Spock did not, he would not risk the lives of himself and his crew just to save his mother, even in an attempt to prevent the loss of his entire planet. Surely it is enough to acknowledge that the presence of Nero and Spock Prime indicate they now live in an unknown, unforeseeable future (just like the rest of us, actually), with respect to what Spock Prime knows and where he's been. It would introduce too many variables to go back and muddle it up all over again.

I see where you're coming from with this, but the fact he's Vulcan means he would rule it out as being illogical.

As for calling for Abrams' head now, be patient. Even The Wrath of Khan needed its The Motion Picture.

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Even if Spock Prime wanted to go back (or forward) in time and fix things, the Federation wouldn't let him. We, as the viewer think that the original timeline is the "right" one, but to them, their timeline is the right one. Yeah, saving Vulcan sounds great, but they would argue: Who's to say the other universe is any better?

Not to mention that SOMEONE out there has to be skeptical about time travel. It always surprised me that people never question the whole time travel thing. Yeah, I get it, they're advanced and space-faring, but this is TIME TRAVEL and manipulation. Someone out there has to look at Spock and say "yeah....okay....right, we'll get right on that."

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Even if Spock Prime wanted to go back (or forward) in time and fix things, the Federation wouldn't let him. We, as the viewer think that the original timeline is the "right" one, but to them, their timeline is the right one. Yeah, saving Vulcan sounds great, but they would argue: Who's to say the other universe is any better?

Not to mention that SOMEONE out there has to be skeptical about time travel. It always surprised me that people never question the whole time travel thing. Yeah, I get it, they're advanced and space-faring, but this is TIME TRAVEL and manipulation. Someone out there has to look at Spock and say "yeah....okay....right, we'll get right on that."

I guess if Nimoy dies within the next few years, they will probably stick with the new timeline, since what other character would have strong enough motivation to rectify it. I guess they could just have another actor play old spock, or by then they will just CGI him. My prediction is they will eventually flip it back. I think the new movie has its charms, moreso if I don't think of it as permanent canon. I actually liked the Deep Roy silent sidekick comedy relief.

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The "prime" timeline that we've known for 40 years is not dead. So long as we remember it.

...the novelization of 2009's Star Trek by Alan Dean Foster...reiterates that Nero believed the destruction of Romulus was part of a conspiracy perpetrated by the Federation, and that any attempt to warn of the supernova in the past would therefore be futile. It is also suggested that if Nero had succeeded in destroying the Federation, he would have used any remaining red matter to create a black hole and consume the star before it could go supernova.

That's why Nero didn't just call up Romulus. His paranoia had consumed him and made him irrational. And it's not the star of Romulus, it's a nearby one, that goes nova. It's probably the same one the Kelvin explores at movie's beginning, actually, somewhere near the Romulan border.

A deleted scene from the film establishes that the Narada was crippled after it was rammed by the Kelvin. A convoy of Klingon warbirds eventually arrived and captured the ship and its crew. Twenty five years later, Nero and his crew escaped from their imprisonment on Rura Penthe, reclaimed the Narada, used the ship to destroy 47 Klingon warbirds, and continued on their mission.

I failed to notice Nero's munched right ear in my first viewing of the film, so that's why the Rura Penthe subplot is necessary to explain that, and what Nero did for 25 years. Memory Alpha says that the attack on Rura Penthe and the incident with 47 warbirds happened right before Ambassador Spock emerged from the black hole, so it's not like the Narada crew stayed put waiting for 25 years. They did get up and move around, and just kept a sensor lock on where they figured Spock would emerge. Funny the Klingons were more interested in the crew than in the future-technology Narada itself, becase...

The scans the Kelvin took of the Narada's 24th century techonology (that went with the survivors on the shuttles) were used by 23rd century Starfleet to backwards engineer the more "advanced" technology seen in the alternate timeline, according to a post by Star Trek screenwriter Roberto Orci on Ain't It Cool News.

I guess these modified long range sensors would work, because apparently in this newly created TOS era, these guys also have the ability to beam people over hundreds of light years. It's one thing to beam from Titan to Earth orbit, within our solar system. It's quite another to beam from stationary Delta Vega to the Enterprise as it moves at high warp, and has been moving further and further away ever since marooning Kirk. I didn't like that concept, I thought it was "crap science." If they could beam people that far and at warp, they'd never need starships, they could just beam from planet to planet, much like Stargate without stargates. Even if it was based on Scotty's own formulae, you have to ask yourself, which Scotty? The one who would have died a natural death after Generations, knowing Kirk had died? Or the Scotty who got himself stuck in a permanent transporter cycle loop on a Dyson Sphere, and emerged many years later believing Kirk was still alive? Hmmm.....

It'd be interesting to see if 24th century Narada technology and Spock Prime's experiences could help against such advanced foes as the Borg when they eventually come knocking. Or if Q will eventually show up in this new movie timeline. The possibilities are endless.

If anything, from Starfleet's point of view, this "new" timeline is already superior to the "prime" timeline, because they have technology from the future to play with. While Vulcan is still gone, I doubt even their survivors will find another time incursion logical. I guess the unspoken, unfilmed dialogue from the climax of this film would be when all the red matter detonated to create a new black hole. Kirk and Young Spock should have had a discussion to realize that this black hole represents another potential space-time door, where going through would cause them to appear in a new place and time. Jumping to the future would be worthless, but emerging in the past, maybe by another 129 years, would allow them to undo the damage done during this film and prevent the disaster to Vulcan, by killing Nero in the past. However, they'd have a typical "Star Trek" moment and realize that the unknowns do not justify the what-ifs, and proceed to destroy the Narada and black hole anyways.

Joey, help me, I'm over-analyzing crap science again...

I liked Scotty's silent sidekick, too. On one hand, if Scotty was alone for so long on a desolate planet, he'd be insane and worthless to the crew. On the other hand, his only company is the small, silent type, which made him just a little nutty.

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. Even if it was based on Scotty's own formulae, you have to ask yourself, which Scotty? The one who would have died a natural death after Generations, knowing Kirk had died? Or the Scotty who got himself stuck in a permanent transporter cycle loop on a Dyson Sphere, and emerged many years later believing Kirk was still alive? Hmmm.....

I liked Scotty's silent sidekick, too. On one hand, if Scotty was alone for so long on a desolate planet, he'd be insane and worthless to the crew. On the other hand, his only company is the small, silent type, which made him just a little nutty.

Like I said Star Trek has shot themselves in the foot with continuity/canon errors long before JJ came aboard.

And yes I kinda liked Scotty's assistant as well.

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Exactly. If people want absolutely flawless continuity, go watch Babylon 5. Star Trek is the last show you should watch if you want flawless continuity and adherence to canon as holy writ. It doesn't make it any less good.

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I guess these modified long range sensors would work, because apparently in this newly created TOS era, these guys also have the ability to beam people over hundreds of light years. It's one thing to beam from Titan to Earth orbit, within our solar system. It's quite another to beam from stationary Delta Vega to the Enterprise as it moves at high warp, and has been moving further and further away ever since marooning Kirk. I didn't like that concept, I thought it was "crap science."

The whole concept of beaming is crap science.

Star Trek is actually full of crap science, always has been.

Need I say "Universal Translator?

One thing I liked about the film was that sometimes...there was no sound in space. :lol:

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One thing I liked about the film was that sometimes...there was no sound in space. :lol:

That was a very nice touch, as the crew of the Kelvin was sucked into space, there was eerie silence. I don't even think there was music during that bit. It heightened the drama of the sequence.

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Listened to the CD again today. The main theme is probably better then the ones from the last 2 Goldsmith scores, but that's it.

Hmmm...is it better then the awful Rosenman's....not sure yet.

More ruminations:

Once again the entire fleet is elsewere and Starfleet only has a few ships filled with cadets. The Enterprise was the only ship or one of the few available in Star Trek's 1, 2 and 5.

Apart from the time travel stuff, this really is The Wrath Of Khan redone.

This is the first Trek film since TMP that actually feels cinematic.

The film made it seem that at high warp, you can travel from earth to Vulcan in less then an hour, maybe a lot less then a hour.

I know the about the Rura Penthe subplot, but right now, since it's not been added to the film, Nero just hangs around for 25 years. This bugs me, more then the accidental encounters with Spock and Scott (which I'm willing to accept, if only just, as a way to move things along)

It took a long time to fully realize that this film was noy gonna be about restoring the damage done to the timeline. I've seen so much Trek that was about just that. For the film makers to keep the status quo, even if it means a Vulcan that's no more, is really rather refreshing.

Uhura and Spock....might work.

Kirk hitting his head on a low bean....is that revenge for that apalling gag in Star Trek 5?

Neil S. Bulk really has a big smile in this film.

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I saw him in the courtroom scene at the end twice.... was he in the film in any other shots?

I thought it might have been him in one brief shot of people picnicking outside but wasn't sure

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