Questionable Use of Themes in AOTC

[stuttersteps 1]

Hi all.

Maybe someone can help me out in understanding what the Maestro's thought process was in writing the score as such. I love it when he quotes himself--inserts segments of past themes--in the new film, however:

- in 'Return to Tatooine', we hear the swell of Ben's/Force Theme as Anakin is about to search for his mother and then an explosion into 'Duel of the Fates' as he speeds across the desert. Why DOTF in that scene? We only really heard DOTF in the first film during the fly scenes w/ Darth Maul--what is the significance here?

- in the 'Finale', we hear the famed return of the 'Imperial March' as the (digital) camera gives us a sweeping, panoramic shot of the new clone army. So are we now to think that Darth Vader's Theme no longer applies or can be strictly associated w/ him?

I realize that the Maestro has used themes/leitmotifs associated to certain characters in situations in which character did not appear (ie - in TESB, we hear "Yoda's Theme" in the action scenes in Cloud City), so I'm just curious as to people's interpretations in these cases.

Charles - who loves the new love theme

[Morn 8]

- in 'Return to Tatooine', we hear the swell of Ben's/Force Theme as Anakin is about to search for his mother and then an explosion into 'Duel of the Fates' as he speeds across the desert. Why DOTF in that scene? We only really heard DOTF in the first film during the fly scenes w/ Darth Maul--what is the significance here?

I'm not sure, perhaps it has something to do with going into battle. Perhaps the title of the theme, might be refering to the fate of Anakin in this scene.

- in the 'Finale', we hear the famed return of the 'Imperial March' as the (digital) camera gives us a sweeping, panoramic shot of the new clone army. So are we now to think that Darth Vader's Theme no longer applies or can be strictly associated w/ him?

It never was only Vader's theme. In TESB, sometimes it was used for whenever star distroyers were around. It was the Imperial and Vader theme from the beginning. I like the theory another board member made, that it is the imperial theme whenever it's in a march form.

But, did anyone else notice that the version at the end of the film is quite similar to the version in ROTJ when we first see the Emperor? And now.. when we first see the empire.

TESB, we hear "Yoda's Theme" in the action scenes in Cloud City

But that did have something to do with Yoda, it was to show that Yoda's predictions were coming true.

[Jay 37,281]

Darth Vader's Theme is called "The Imperial March" and has always been used to underscores scenes of anything Empire-related, not just Darth Vader. Although he is, of course, present in almost all Empire-related scenes.

Some examples:

In ESB it plays as the probe droids leave a Star Destroyer (a Star Destroyer Vader is not even on) for Hoth.

In ROTJ it plays as the Emperor arrives at the Death Star II.

As for Duel of the Fates as he leaves to look for his mother - well, yes, it is a theme that he used in Phantom Menace only to underscore the finale battle of Naboo, most usually during the Qui-Gon&Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul fight. However, based on the title of the peice as well as things George Lucas has said, I think George wants to make it into more of a peice representing the inner struggle in Anakin, ie a good fate and a bad fate for him dueling it out inside. George has hinted that it will be used in EpisodeIII for the final Obi-Wan vs Anakin/Vader duel.

Finally, I would like to say that it was not John William's intention to play Darth Vaders theme over the shots of the clone troopers at the end of the movie. He scored everything after Yoda and Mace's dialogue with a grande finale version of the love theme with chorus and everything. But Lucas wanted the Imperial March, so he recorded a 38 second portion of it to splice in. And the splice is in the movie and on the soundtrack.

Part of the petition for a full Episode II score release is to include Williams' original finale.

-Jason

Stargate SG-1 (I'm not gonna lie to you, this CD is really bad)

[Jay 37,281]

well Morn you beat me to it

-J

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

Why DOTF in that scene?  We only really heard DOTF in the first film during the fly scenes w/ Darth Maul--what is the significance here?

I think the connection can easily be made when you think about the title: Anakin is on his way to a nasty meeting with his fate in the Tusken camp

- in the 'Finale', we hear the famed return of the 'Imperial March' as the (digital) camera gives us a sweeping, panoramic shot of the new clone army.  So are we now to think that Darth Vader's Theme no longer applies or can be strictly associated w/ him?

When was it STRICTLY associated with Vader? I always thought of it as a theme for the Imperials in general ("The Imperial March").

Marian - who didn't realize that the fanfare in the final Imperial March statement is in fact the love theme until he read John's analysis.

[Lurker 5]

The Empire soundtrack refers to the theme as, "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)".

Another mis-used theme not mentioned was the Trade Federation march as Obi-Wan first sees the clone troopers loading up on Kamino.

Neil

[Morn 8]

Yes, but then... both armies were being used by the emperor. In a way they are the same army.

[Harry Potter 0]

I did not realize that JW composed something different for the ending of AOTC. To me, Lucas's work on this score keeps getting worse.

I want the petition to go forward. Any new details?

~Harry

[ocelot 508]

Part of the Last Battle is on the CD and it wasn't even put in the film.

OK, another missused theme. Yoda's theme during the Conveyer Belt scene???????? That makes no sense.

Another one, Corrusant City chase music in the conveyer belt scene. The sound John uses is so inner city, the rhythms, the orchestrations, everything is so geared towards a CITY. It's like Leonard Bernstein, Gershwin with a touch of Crouching Tiger percussion all put into a blender, shaken arround and developed into an incredible SciFi chase but geared to that one area. That's why it's so different from any other chase he has written for Star Wars. Why use it anywhere else??????

UGH!!!! Don't get me started, I'm so mad!

[Morn 8]

Grrr, that's all due to the editing and it sucks!

[ocelot 508]

SOmeone said that the reason for the conveyer belt scene was the addition of the whole C3PO stuff... Which I loved, but still, that doesn't mean that you couldn't use the track and make that track longer to fit. Even if you edit in the love theme from time to time, the track still could have been used. It's just excuses. I took my iPod and put it in one ear and played part of it, it's so good too. Stupid Stupid Editors and Stick Up his Ass Lucas!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

My happy pills...... where are they?

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

But, did anyone else notice that the version at the end of the film is quite similar to the version in ROTJ when we first see the Emperor? And now.. when we first see the empire.

Yes its nearly the same.

BUt we met the emperor in ESB.

Just think, what is doind the emperor in ROJ? Overseeing/checking his troops before a grand battle.

What is Doing Palpatine?

Exactly the same.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Another mis-used theme not mentioned was the Trade Federation march as Obi-Wan first sees the clone troopers loading up on Kamino.

Neil

Maybe they want us to think it is the federation who has built them, And (i don't remember it well) obi-wan may not know they are for the Republic yet)

[TownerFan 4,983]

Hi all.

Maybe someone can help me out in understanding what the Maestro's thought process was in writing the score as such.  I love it when he quotes himself--inserts segments of past themes--in the new film, however:  

- in 'Return to Tatooine', we hear the swell of Ben's/Force Theme as Anakin is about to search for his mother and then an explosion into 'Duel of the Fates' as he speeds across the desert.  Why DOTF in that scene?  We only really heard DOTF in the first film during the fly scenes w/ Darth Maul--what is the significance here?

- in the 'Finale', we hear the famed return of the 'Imperial March' as the (digital) camera gives us a sweeping, panoramic shot of the new clone army.  So are we now to think that Darth Vader's Theme no longer applies or can be strictly associated w/ him?

I realize that the Maestro has used themes/leitmotifs associated to certain characters in situations in which character did not appear (ie - in TESB, we hear "Yoda's Theme" in the action scenes in Cloud City), so I'm just curious as to people's interpretations in these cases.  

About the DOTF quote: I agree that probably Williams intepreted that theme as a "predestination", as Anakin is going toward his destiny... but is even probable that Lucas wanted THAT theme in that moment...

I found stranger the use of the Trade Federation March when Obi-Wan sees the Clone Army marching on. I'm still wondering why Williams used that theme, apparently out of place, in that moment. Well, it works pefectly with the images anyway!

On a general note we have to say also that John Williams uses the leitmotif technique in a very simple way, not as strictly intellectual or programmatic as Wagner, for example. Williams uses his themes in a very flexible way, trying to find out the BEST possible usage in a cinematic sense. He helps to carry on the narration and telling the story, which is his FIRST directive.

Maurizio

--

Ralph Vaughan Williams, Sinfonia Antarctica (some passages are very close-related with Williams' AOTC score... really!)

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Marian - who didn't realize that the fanfare in the final Imperial March statement is in fact the love theme until he read John's analysis.

Hey, I figured that out by myself!

Marc, very proud of himself.

Trailer music, Forbidden Love: Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones

[Director 1]

Isn't that cool?

I was explaining to my Dad today all about the leitmotif stuff and the themes of SW. I love the way he segues from theme/motif to theme/motif.

Dan - who just loves Johnny all the way

[markedouglas 0]

Wouldnt it have been more....logical...for JW to use a milder version of the Imperial March in that scene with the Clones? Then used his cool-er new-er version in the end shot like it already does.

Also, in the scene when Dooku comes back and meets with Sidious, you can hear a bit from the Trip Through the Centre of the Planet theme in Episode 1 (?!?!). What else? I dunno...but it feels like he just concentrated on Across the Stars (which is great!) and thought, 'Oh yeah, I'll throw this theme in here...and this one here....oh oh, dealine is coming. George is ganna be pissed. Damn George for not finishing the editing sooner! Damn him damn him damn him'.

[Morn 8]

He did have a very tight deadline, he would have had to compose 3 minutes a day!

[IrishCal24 0]

- in 'Return to Tatooine', we hear the swell of Ben's/Force Theme as Anakin is about to search for his mother and then an explosion into 'Duel of the Fates' as he speeds across the desert. Why DOTF in that scene? We only really heard DOTF in the first film during the fly scenes w/ Darth Maul--what is the significance here?  

I think perhaps Williams used DOTF in the scene to give more emotional weight to Anakin's internal struggle between good and evil as he searches for the his mother and the Tusken camp. It's not a physical battle, but an important one just the same. That what I got from it, at any rate.

[Director 1]

Yes, because it is one of the breaking points with Anakin. His anger starts to set in and his darker sides slowly creaps up and starts to take control.

Director - who thought Johnny's idea was to referrence Anakin's two possible destinies. He will be the greatest Jedi ever, but his fate is to become the most evil.

[tpigeon 3]

But, did anyone else notice that the version at the end of the film is quite similar to the version in ROTJ when we first see the Emperor? And now.. when we first see the empire.

TESB, we hear "Yoda's Theme" in the action scenes in Cloud City

But that did have something to do with Yoda, it was to show that Yoda's predictions were coming true.

good points, Morn. i too made the obervation of the rendition of the Imperial March in that the same one is used when we first see the Emperor. i thought the very same thing. and low and behold, we see the Emperor in that scene. i think it's pretty neat.

Ted, who felt like reviving an old thread that he didn't know existed.

[Guest macrea]

Oh boy, more of this. You should check out the following thread:

http://www.jwfan.net/modules.php?op=modloa...iewtopic&t=1416

....where all this is being discussed ad nauseum (not that I'm not adding to it). With regard to Duel of the Fates in AOTC, no one mentioned the most obvious and logical reason for its use... At the moment it is heard, Anakin begins his journey to becoming the new Darth Maul.

[Trumpeteer 302]

Marian - who didn't realize that the fanfare in the final Imperial March statement is in fact the love theme until he read John's analysis.

Jeff -- who didn't realize that the fanfare in the final Imperial March statement is in fact the love theme until he read Marian's post

[King Mark 3,625]

:

At the moment it is heard, Anakin begins his journey to becoming the new Darth Maul.

DotF is NOT Mauls theme.

Williams discussed that intensively in an article.

K.M.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

PLEASE

Do not 'revive' threads like this. I thought it was new and someone had posted with my name.

I didn't remember if i'd said that.

Luke, seeing the date of the thread and relieved

[King Mark 3,625]

The trade federation march fits PERFECTLY with when first see the clones.sometimes Williams does that,using a theme out of context.He put Leia's theme in Ben's Death for ANH because of its sweeping impact.

K.M.

[Morn 8]

Out of context? I'd say that it's all really the same army anyway. Palpatine is in charge of them both!

[King Mark 3,625]

Out of context? I'd say that it's all really the same army anyway.   Palpatine is in charge of them both!

Palpatine is only in charge of them at the end of the movie after Yoda is finished whith them,so your right in a way.

K.M.Who didn't "get" exactly WHO had the clones ordered in the first place.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

AOTC has a tone of issues. Proper theme use is the least of my concerns.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

K.M.Who didn't "get" exactly WHO had the clones ordered in the first place.

I thought it was clear. Jedi Master Sypho-Dyas LOL

I think he is Dooku or Palpatine disguised. Or Palaptine used Sypho-Dyas to order the clone army and killed him to close his mouth. He died exactly the year of the Clones' order and Palpatin'es rise to power...

Surely we'll know in EPIII or in some Expanded universe novel

[King Mark 3,625]

Who the heck is Sypho-Dyas?

K.M.Who forgot most of AOTC's weird plot twists

[UCFKevin 0]

I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas just completely skipped over the Syfo Dias thing in Episode III just like he did with the midichlorians in Episode II. Feh!

[King Mark 3,625]

I hope so because it made no sense except what you could make up of it in your mind.(like Our buddy Luke Skywalker here.)Or just maybe he'll elaborate on the Midichlorian issue in ep3.!!

K.M.