Film Music Is Dead

[Morlock 11]

That's only because a great deal of my time is spent defending music written after 1980. I think the 70's were the most exciting years for film music ever, I appreciate film music from most eras.

I think that it is a fact of life that, on principle, nothing is ever as good as it was, no matter where you are. I am only a film score fan for a few years, so I am still open to and excited by the current output. Time will tell how this era will be seen. Upon reading the early 'Film score Monthly's, one gets the impression that film music sucks. Now, people love the 90's.

I think I can tell the difference between complex well written music and wallpaper.

If you think a score like The Village or Lady in the Water is less complex and well-written than Superman or The Fury, then no, you can't.

Ray Barnsbury

I don't find Lady in the Water to be particularly complex or well-written. It's very patchy, doesn't come together. Not like Signs or Unbreakable do. And The Village is well-written and not at all wallpaper, but it also isn't as unified as the two earlier Shyamalan sores.

There is a similar discussion going on over at FSM.

I've been following it. One of the most open and most intersting threads I've read in a long time.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I love Signs, but labeling it one of the Best Ever is too much

[Ollie 1,059]

What took you so long....

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. At least we all love John Williams!

Ray Barnsbury

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes and that's the most important thing.

[gkgyver 1,645]

With John Williams, the last remaining gleam of hope on the horizon will be dead. Zimmer will become our leader ... the horror, the HORROR!

Ahem, my two cents.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hellooooo....Newman!

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I think people are so desperate for good film music they are proclaiming average to good scores as great.

I personally am not desperate for good film music at all, because there's plenty of it, like the three JNH scores you mentioned, which are great, not merely good. It's a vastly different sound from the great scores of decades past, however, so maybe some people are just not able or willing to appreciate it without wishing it sounded like what they grew up with.

Ray Barnsbury

I just love when I burst into a thread and find that my opinion has already been stated. All I have to do in these cases is agree. Which I do. Good form, Ray.

[Red 75]

Thats my line!

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Um.... indeed?

-Ross, not a catchphrase person.

[Red 75]

Its ok. You can use it.

[Melange 446]

Is Hans Zimmer the new Hitler, and has a established a new

Thousand Year Reich that dominates soundtrracks everywere?

If he "is" Hitler and has "indeed" planned a 3rd Reich, then it will only lost a matter of decades

before being obilterated by a wave of heavy allied composing (if we go by the last attempt,anyway).

It's a valid point. But I'd like to point out that there's plenty of what you call "foreign"

films being made in the U.S. They just don't get as much attention as commercial,

expensive releases. Some directors will shoot a commercial film to finance their more

personal, independent projects.

Yes there is some truth in that. I'd guess you're talking about 'art films'. But it being a back street affair doesn't mean it will be automatically wonderful. For me, it is just the mindset found in many foreign (yes, I know the term seems silly because a Russian would term an american film, foreign too. But you know what I mean) films, seems to be more open minded in general about things. Somehow they come up with more challenging ideas for their storylines that don't appear in the west

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I just love when I burst into a thread and find that my opinion has already been stated. All I have to do in these cases is agree. Which I do. Good form, Ray.

Well, our generation's gotta represent! *makes complicated and threatening gang sign with fingers*

I would like to say, though, that while I've been arguing against the blanket statements that all modern film music is crap, I do recognize the downward trends that people are lamenting, and at times find myself longing for the days of yore. For instance, when listening to something like "Desert Chase," "The Forest Battle," or "The Ultimate War," it's kinda sad to realize that Williams (or anyone else) will never write another action cue quite like that again. That kind of music is simply not in stride with modern films and scores. It's moments like those when the phrase "They don't make 'em like they used to" does actually seem appropriate.

Ray Barnsbury

[Red 75]

Well, there was Lord of the Rings.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

. . .

I stand by my point.

Ray Barnsbury

[Ollie 1,059]

Well, there was Lord of the Rings.

One of the few very good film scores in the past 10 years.

[Morlock 11]

It is one of the many, many, MANY good film scores in the past few years. It might be one of the few good albums of film music (it's not that either, not by a long-shot). But just about every movie I've seen gets a fitting film score, which is the only essential thing to a film score. If we get good music out of it, I concider myself very fortunate, as I theoretically see no reason why any film needs to have good or well-written music in it.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't even know how to begin to answer that.......

[Morlock 11]

While rather depressing to think about, a synth pad score or guitar doodlings can be just as effective in a film as a well thought out symphonic piece.

[Romão 2,274]

Not to say there are no great new scores every one in a while, but the number of truly gifted composers working for film now is much much smaller than it was say, 10-15 years ago. I can´t think of a truly talented new composer in the last 10 years.

[Morlock 11]

Well, I can think of a few truly talented film composers who broke out in the past decade.

[publicist 4,643]

It's like economic highs and lows, which happen every few years...

The recent trend is to have the music as muted servant in aid of the film...It seems somewhat obscene to have dramas like 'Children of Men' or 'Babel' with very upfront scores...both very pompous-pedestrian films, another unfortunate modern trend.

But i think we will see things change in other directions over the next few years. There will be one film which starts a trend, like 'Gladiator' did, for instance, and if we're lucky, good music will be part of the package.

AND

'Lady in the Water' indeed may be no musical masterpiece, but i find it unbelievable how one can see that schlock of a movie and not have the utmost respect for Newton Howards endeavours to make it a palatable story. The comparison with 30 year old Williams or Goldsmith scores simply holds no water...another time, another taste/style.

And i bet that the cocky sureness about Williams writing a better one should be put to test in 20 years...and i bet that these Shymalayan scores indeed will have a special place in that era. The films are another matter, sadly.

[crocodile 7,999]

So more appropriate title to this thread would be "Big orchestral scores from 70's and 80's are dead" or "The true craftmanship in film music is dead". Both statements are, of course, true.

Film music is not a genre, and because of that scores need not to be orchestra-based. They will eventually come to pass. It's not that I like, but that's how it goes. Many people find this traditional approach too manipulative and cliche. It's hard to blame them really, if you look at it from broader perspective.

The real problem is whether or not this new era can offer something as complex and sophisticated as traditional film music. Because as of now I can't see that coming. It's not the approach that we should argue about, I think.

Karol, who just notced it's his 666th post

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

While rather depressing to think about, a synth pad score or guitar doodlings can be just as effective in a film as a well thought out symphonic piece.

Heretic!

[Morlock 11]

Yes, we realists are often branded as such.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I...I....I...know.

[Melange 446]

I agree that a score doesn't nescessarily have to be a full on symphonic masterpiece to be effective in a film. Some fascinatingly effective scores in films, are extremely minimalist. Crocodile hits the bullseye with ""Big orchestral scores from 70's and 80's are dead" more than anything. Film music isn't dead, it is just taking on forms (as are the movies) that some of us don't like as much as the rich scores of the 1970's 80's, 90's. That is perhaps the most accurate way to reflect my view on this matter. On another note (excuse the pun) one of my favourite films has no musical score. The Hill (1965), with Connery.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but it has Connery, so that doesn't count....

[Neimoidian 14]

While rather depressing to think about, a synth pad score or guitar doodlings can be just as effective in a film as a well thought out symphonic piece.

Heretic!

Bernard Herrmann once said that even a bad-quality piece of music when properly used is as effective [in the movie] as a great piece of music. And he was right.

The problem is that there is oveabundance of film music that is recorded and released. I'd risk saying that while most of it is quite well-written, the standard of 'something special' has been set much higher. It is hard to find great piece in this pile of average music, but it is still possible. Film music isn't dead, it is just in temporary crisis after death of people like Goldsmith, Poledouris or Kamen, and Williams' semi-retirement. However, there are plenty of new talented composers rising (I am sure of that), some that work already are getting better (like Shore and Powell for instance). Elfman and Howard and many others are still in form. Zimmer - even though many of you loath his music - can still come up with some nice work ("DaVinci Code" is one of my most favourite soundtracks of the previous year, next to "Pan's Labirynth"). Even Horner delivers once in 2 or 3 years.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I have just been wondering the state of the film composing , is it dead like many here thinks?

Is it possible that all those MV composers and Santaolallas are just doing a progress for the art of scoring a film?

I thought that the Gladiator was a very strong movie experience after I came here and heard it's "just" a MV score.

I never liked it off the film but it worked with the film.

On the other hand , the "old masters" (like JW) , didn't they somehow overscored the films , almost ruined

them but gave us a great listening experience?.

I know this is all BS but it has been in my mind for awhile and if this is the future I'll start to collect butterflies...

[Ollie 1,059]

If that's the case then I'll find another hobby,

[Magnus 0]

I think it isn't that far fetched... Look at the popular music scene for instance, each decade they come up with something new that's even simpler (musically) then the former. Jazz of course is the exception that proves the rule (where, as I see it, got more advanced each decade).

I fear that unless something more or less revolutionary happens soon, there'll be 2 chords maximum in the film music as well. (Could be exaggerated, but you get my point)

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

What we have now is generally a lot more sophisticated than what we had in the 1920's, 30's, 40's etc.

Is it the way of the future?

Not completely. Is our music getting more sophisticated? Yes. Just because every movie no longer touts sheet music with 150 instruments per page, doesn't mean we're going backwards. As far as conservative use of film music vs. over the top, it's all cyclical. All through film music history you have the periods of over the top orchestral blast, and minimalist, almost lack of music periods.

No what you're saying is not at all BS.

Go back in time, classical film music purists back in the 50's and 60's said the same things people saying about Santaollala's today about composers who were introducing jazz to film music, Herrmann, Goldsmith, even Williams. The difference today is that we have developed music to the point where we have many styles. Back then it was jazz vs. classical/romanticism. Directors no longer consider themselves bound by the factory-style movie production that existed back then.

There is no one road to the future anymore. Filmmakers will select what serves their film best. This can be over-the-top orchestral ala X-Men 3, minimalism like Brokeback Mountain, or modern-over-the top like 300 and Bruckheimer films, and the list goes on.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How can Zimmer progress anything if the style he's been using for many of his most popular scores has not changed since the early 90's?

[crocodile 7,999]

Apparently he did it once with his first score in that style

Karol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

How can Zimmer progress anything if the style he's been using for many of his most popular scores has not changed since the early 90's?

His style has changed since then, about as much as any other composer develops over his career.

I mean come on, even the great John Williams's action music sounds like a redressing of The Last Crusade over and over again. The only significant progression is in the addition of xylophones and a cathedralesque brass section.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but Williams is m,uch older ans has experienced several dramatic shifts in his style.

Far more then I think Hansel will ever have.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Only time will tell...

What the hell do they call those high pitched churchy-sounding brass hits anyway? The ones that sound like they're accompanied by organs? Y'know...see the end of "Battle of Heroes" or "The Boys Continue" the "Turbulent Times" from Nixon.

They need a name...like..."annoying after umpteenth use" or something.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Only time will tell...

What the hell do they call those churchy-sounding brass hits anyway? The ones that sound like they're accompanied by organs? Y'know...see the end of "Battle of Heroes" or "The Boys Continue" the "Turbulent Times" from Nixon

...

[Ollie 1,059]

How can Zimmer progress anything if the style he's been using for many of his most popular scores has not changed since the early 90's?

His style has changed since then, about as much as any other composer develops over his career.

I mean come on, even the great John Williams's action music sounds like a redressing of The Last Crusade over and over again. The only significant progression is in the addition of xylophones and a cathedralesque brass section.

Yeah but it's still better than 90% of what is being written today.

[Morlock 11]

So is Zimmer's work. That's not saying much.

And Zimmer's style has most certainly changed. He might regress for some dumb fun like PoTC 2, but there's certainly a change. Whether in the right direction or not is debatable, but his music is different.

[Sandor 797]

While I really enjoy Zimmer's music, there is no denying that his music is a HUGE step back from the orchestral masterpieces written by Williams, Goldsmith, John Barry, Morricone, Poledouris and even James Horner. There was a time when those names dominated the film music world.

Sure Williams still retains his popularity, but let's face it: the current face of "popular" film music is Zimmer and his Media Ventures colleagues.

I liked it when BIG films like Superman, Star Trek TMP, Gremlins, Poltergeist, Jurassic Park, Willow or Total Recall (just a small selection of course) were scored by true artists, creating scores I could look forward to for months.

[Jeshopk 8]

I agree that big Hollywood films should be scored by better artists. They should also be created by artists, but that's for another conversation. I think that film has been before, and can be again a culmination of the arts.

In music now, there will be no progression of its basic elements on a broad scale unless microtonal is embraced by the mainstream. I don't mean bends, but more than 12 fixed notes per scale that the public can distinguish. I don't recommend this, as I think it is a murky road which confuses the composer and the listener, therefore I am against true "progress" in music at this point. Trends will come and go, and the pop world will always influence film composers. Every decade has hybrid sores which are orchestral yet complimented by contemporary popular instruments and trends.

In this modern age, anyone with a home computer can become a composer (not necessarily a good one). Most music heard on TV and film is relatively easy to achieve within a small budget. The hard thing to do is to create great music, but most TV and Film producers don't seem interested in that, especially when studios make artistic decisions based on test screenings. When you sit down a few hundred people and ask them if they liked the music in a given movie, they're going to judge mainly based on their listening habits, and secondarily on how effective the music was in the film. The problem is, they will probably not remember the music except the end credits, but will say they disliked the music unless they can remember something that they would listen to on the radio. This is why song albums are so popular, and it also explains why the orchestral music in films has resembled orchestral art music less and less. The least popular instrumental pallette used in America has to be orchestral art music. So while we do have lots of orchestral scores coming out, they will usually be for period pieces (though less often these days even for that) or they will be written by a composer who will write simply enough to stay out of the way.

This is not to say simple, or even bad music does not have a place in film, TV or videogames. When the goal is simple fun, often a simple and fun score will do much better than a great work. Comedy, and schmaltz deserve comedy and schmaltz. Imagine the greatest love theme ever written used for a Lifetime Original Movie, and you realize that not every film should, or would benefit from great music. But there have been many missed opportunities when the film was very ambitious, and the music was seemingly the lowest common denominator in "background music." Any Sci-Fi or Fantasy on TV could easily have better music as well. Sci-Fi and Fantasy used to be a treasure trove of interesting music, but now it is mainly lacking in talent. For all those Sci-Fi channel TV shows, you'd think we'd have lots of great music coming.

Complex orchestral music is heard by today's audiences on DVD quite often, so there is some hope for it to return in full force to the mainstream. When audiences are still thrilling to Poltergeist in HDDVD and Blu-Ray, perhaps the next studio that hires Chris Young for a horror film will tell him he can write dense, active music with memorable themes and horrifying rhythms like he once did for Nightmare on Elm Street 2 and Hellraiser.