Buckbeak's...theme?

[John Crichton 4]

OK, just "vocalizing" something that's been rattling around in my head the last couple of days: is what we've always been calling Buckbeak's theme in PoA really deserving to be called a full theme? I mean, it only has two statements in the score, with no development or even variation. Boba Fett's motif in Empire gets more play. So is this a hair worth splitting or just a silly semantics game?

(And please don't take me to be disparaging the quality of Buckbeak's Flight, although personally I'd rank A Window to the Past above it any day it's still very, very nice.)

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Considering that I often forget and cannot recall what the hell a Boba Fett's motif is, and the fact that Buckbeak's Flight is a pretty great self-contained development of the theme. It's also way too long to be a motif.

It's a theme.

[Marcus 385]

I think it is neither Buckbeak's theme nor motif, as I wold say it isn't a property of Buckbeak per se, but a six note figure associated with Harry's (and the others') experience of flight on this great creature, and with the very movement of its large wings. As a "flight figure", it does develop within the first cue in which it is stated, but only very simply through harmonic shifts that portray (again) Harry's shifting emotions as he overcomes his initial fear and finally revels in the joy of flight.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

I think it is neither Buckbeak's theme nor motif, as I wold say it isn't a property of Buckbeak per se, but a six note figure associated with Harry's (and the others') experience of flight on this great creature, and with the very movement of its large wings. As a "flight figure", it does develop within the first cue in which it is stated, but only very simply through harmonic shifts that portray (again) Harry's shifting emotions as he overcomes his initial fear and finally revels in the joy of flight.

So it's the flight theme.  

[Marcus 385]

If you will.

But as it consists solely of duplicates of a single motif (the aforementioned six notes), I think you can just as well argue that it is a motif.

I would settle for the somehow more neutral "figure".

[John Crichton 4]

Your first post is interesting Marcus. In that context it can be seen as a replacement for the Flying theme, aka Nimbus 2000, from the first two scores. Even when that theme pops up at the end of the film, it's associated with broomstick flying just like the first two scores.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

A theme is just a combination of notes. It doesn't necessarily have to be a leitmotif, and it doesn't have to be recurring.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

True.

The theme seems to respresent flying Buckbeak more then the actual character itself.

[Red 73]

I thought themes and motifs were the same thing.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

A motif is usually considered to be something shorter, or even just an orchestrational choice.

Although were exactly the crossover point between theme and motif lies is something of a mystery.

[Ollie 859]

So it basically it represents flying Buckbeak.

[King Mark 2,924]

I also think it's a flying theme

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I see it as almost an individual piece of music for a specific scene, that's simply reprised during a recurrence of said scene. Whatever it is though, it's amazing...one of William's best pieces in recent years, and right up there with the rest of his classic flying sequences.

Ray Barnsbury

[King Mark 2,924]

It's the orchestrations and counterpoints that make this piece as the motif is fairly simple.

[Incanus 5,519]

I think Buckbeak's Flight is a theme for both Buckbeak and flying. And I think that it is definitely a theme. It is used only 2 times in the film but in the specific scenes involving flying with Buckbeak and that is enough to make it a theme in my book. You do not have to have endless variations of a theme to make it a theme. And there sure weren't any other chances to use the theme in the film as we do not see Buckbeak flying with Harry besides those 2 times. The theme is not for flying with brooms or in general but solely for Buckbeak as Williams could have then used this theme for Quidditch match scene etc. which he did not. Also Nimbus 2000 makes a comeback in the finale as Harry flies away with his new broomstick.

[Datameister 1,394]

I tend to think of cases like this not as themes but as melodies that are re-used. That sounds really dumb when I put it into words like that, but let me explain myself. I generally think of a movie score theme as a melody that is used multiple times and developed in various ways. A melody that makes an appearance in two cues with similar orchestration and very little development doesn't strike me as being thematic OR motivic. This case seems to me more like a very beautiful, very well-written cue that is given a much-need reprise later in the film.

That being said, I can see why people would call this a theme. A motif...meh, not so much. But a theme, yeah.

[Incanus 5,519]

Theme or motif is usually applied to specific things. To use a melody in different scenes in a film without any meaning behind it is totally different thing than using a melody to represent some specific object, place, mood, person or idea. If some melody or musical expression is applied to a specific thing it makes it a motif/theme if used consistently. I do not think any drastically big development is required for melody to be thematic. Sure it makes it a whole lot more interesting if it is varied but it is not a requirement in my opinion.

Well this all is just my humble personal opinion on the matter.

[nicholas 1]

I am not qualified to comment here, but this is why I love this site...

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

As I said above, a melody *is* a theme. That "theme" is also commonly used as a substitute term for "leitmotif" is a different matter.

And regarding Buckbeak, the middle section always reminded me of Patrick Doyle (already long before we'd heard Doyle's Potter score).

[Datameister 1,394]

And regarding Buckbeak, the middle section always reminded me of Patrick Doyle (already long before we'd heard Doyle's Potter score).

Really? I don't hear the resemblance. In fact, I'm sorry to say I don't think Doyle's capable of writing something like that. Okay, I guess I can understand the comparison a little...but it still very much feels like Williams to me.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

It sounds like Williams. But the brass ostinato also sounds somewhat like Much Ado About Nothing.