Zimmer on POTC: At World's End

[Ollie 1,059]

between the lines:

He wanted that crappy MV sound and I don't score films like that.

or

He stuck his nose into my business too much for my liking.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Actually Silvestri's Tomb Raider score and Van Helsing both have MV elements in them.

Only they were composed by a talented guy.

[gkgyver 1,645]

What has frickin' Gone With The Wind to do in there?

You'd think that all the PotC scores were spoof enough.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Actually Silvestri's Tomb Raider score and Van Helsing both have MV elements in them.

Only they were composed by a talented guy.

Zimmer is a talented guy.  

[Neimoidian 14]

Actually Silvestri's Tomb Raider score and Van Helsing both have MV elements in them.

Only they were composed by a talented guy.

Zimmer is a talented guy.  

Definitelly, but lacks in skills of how to write epic music (I adore his more non-epic writing). Fortunatelly, this time he seems to have learnt his lesson and made great improvement. While I still believe Alan Silvestri would have come out with a better music, I - as a (sort of) Zimmer fan - am happy about most of things he delivered in this score and many from the previous one (and I still dislike the first one).

[Delorean90 42]

Thanks for the heads up, Neimoidian!

This could be a good sign. If Chris Nolan doesn't hold Zimmer and Howard back, The Dark Knight should be a big improvement on Batman Begins.

[Romão 2,274]

I really hope so. I have very high expectations for everything regarding that movie.

[Red 75]

So do I. Its probably my most anticipated film besides Indy IV.

[bondo 33]

Definitelly, but lacks in skills of how to write epic music (I adore his more non-epic writing). Fortunatelly, this time he seems to have learnt his lesson and made great improvement. While I still believe Alan Silvestri would have come out with a better music, I - as a (sort of) Zimmer fan - am happy about most of things he delivered in this score and many from the previous one (and I still dislike the first one).

I'd say his scores for The Lion King, Gladiator, and King Arthur qualify as 'epic.' I too was eager to hear Silvestri's take on POTC, but we already have Cutthroat Island and The Mummy Returns... you can't say a Silvestri pirate score wouldn't be predictable...

[BigMacGyver 0]

but we already have Cutthroat Island and The Mummy Returns... you can't say a Silvestri pirate score wouldn't be predictable...

Huh? Alan Silvestri has never composed anything like the mummy returns before and after the mummy returns, so how on earth can a silvestri pirate score be predictable?

In fact, beowulf will probably be the only thing Silvestri is doing in recent years that will come somewhat close to match the adventurism of the mummy returns and i promise you that score will be very different from tmr.

[Neimoidian 14]

Definitelly, but lacks in skills of how to write epic music (I adore his more non-epic writing). Fortunatelly, this time he seems to have learnt his lesson and made great improvement. While I still believe Alan Silvestri would have come out with a better music, I - as a (sort of) Zimmer fan - am happy about most of things he delivered in this score and many from the previous one (and I still dislike the first one).

I'd say his scores for The Lion King, Gladiator, and King Arthur qualify as 'epic.' I too was eager to hear Silvestri's take on POTC, but we already have Cutthroat Island and The Mummy Returns... you can't say a Silvestri pirate score wouldn't be predictable...

I don't like "Gladiator"'s action music and I am not a big fan of "KA", which has its moments, but is nothing special for me overall. I generally dislike the "Cimson Tide" like music so whenever HZ goes thas way, I am not satisifed. The recent action tracks from HZ which I enjoy come mostly from "The Last Samurai" and "Pearl Harbor" (and its bootleg complete score).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Huh? Alan Silvestri has never composed anything like the mummy returns before and after the mummy returns, so how on earth can a silvestri pirate score be predictable?

Oh come now BigMacGyver, do not even try to claim that you do not feel that every epic theme of Silvestri's is another iteration of Back to the Future. If it's a sincere belief, then some closer listening is required.

"The Last Samurai" and "Pearl Harbor"

The rejected version of the "Take Off/Battle Over Pearl Harbor" with the woodwinds and what not is fantastic and far superior to the version in the film.

[Delorean90 42]

And Cutthroat Island was by Debney. And it seems like you're kind of pigeon-holing the swashbuckling score genre. Just because I've heard one epic score doesn't mean I don't want to hear another one.

[BigMacGyver 0]

Oh come now BigMacGyver, do not even try to claim that you do not feel that every epic theme of Silvestri's is another iteration of Back to the Future. If it's a sincere belief, then some closer listening is required.

I have heard them all and I don't think what you say is true. You are mistaking a strong melodic voice and musical persona with self-plagiarism. I think you are the one who should listen more closely before making such uneducated comments or accusing others of inaccuracy.

And Cutthroat Island was by Debney. And it seems like you're kind of pigeon-holing the swashbuckling score genre. Just because I've heard one epic score doesn't mean I don't want to hear another one.

Good point.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Sensational! I think this is the very first Zimmer score (amongst the 12 or so that I know) that features a genuine, real, old-fashioned string arpeggio ("I don't think now is the best time" at 8:20)!

Wow, miracles do happen!

Zimmer shows us that instruments indeed have different registers, and can do more than produce boring soundscapes and shout dull melodic lines, all praise the lord!

But all kidding aside, and this won't surprise some of you, I don't really like this score. Which is a great improvement over Dead Man's Chest, though, which I genuinely hate.

I heard it the first time and kind of liked it. Then a second time, a third, a fourth time. And each time it got worse.

Zimmer's principal idea for "Hoist The Colours" is good, and it may be the only truly original track on the album. That and the World's end theme, which heavily reminds me of Titanic. The rest is typical Zimmer, which means it varies between "noise", "padding", "static", "loud", "extremely loud", and "one-more-minute-and-my-ears-bleed loud" - the Hans Zimmer equivalent of the traditional p-mp-mf-f-ff-fff.

Zimmer says in the SN podcast that "people think they are so smart because they found out that this track is a hommage to Ennio Morricone, but what they don't realise is that this is actually the love theme". And Goldwasser writes "talk about versatility". Well, writing a theme that can be used in different environments is not incredible genius on part of the composer, it's *his damn job*. If we can't take this for granted, then film scoring really faces a tough time.

Goldwasser also writes about Davy Jones' theme that "you won't recognise it if you don't know what it was". This may be kind of an arrogant point of view, but you'd have to be terribly deaf not to recognise any Zimmer theme.

Talking about themes. I know people in the theatre are going to laugh long and hard when they see Will and Elizabeth marrying to the tones of Tara's Theme from Gone With The Wind. Is this a conscious decision from Zimmer? How can anyone write such music and not see the blatant (again, I'm using this word in the strongest possible meaning) similarity, not to say rip-off?

Then, Zimmer says he didn't want Singapore to sound too asian. Ahem ... yes. I can't imagine music sounding more asian than "Singapore". Listen to Memoirs Of A Geisha and hear how delicate chinese music can be interwoven with our music styles. Or Tomorrow Never Dies. Some may say it's a wrong comparison, but these are the standards Hans Zimmer has to be measured by. And he's lightyears away from it, that's the cruel "truth" (in the vaguest meaning of the word).

Hmmm, what else? Music from DMC being recycled note for note and instrument for instrument in "I don't think now is the best time" (boy that title is annoying to type), choir pieces that sound like they've been edited into the film from The Da Vinci Code, cues like "Up Is Down" and "Multiple Jacks" that seem to more satisfy the desires of the composer than the needs of the film ... who knows? Maybe a couple of co-writers had the chance to go wild on one of these ...

And it all suffers from the usual horn overkill. Zimmer says he doesn't use samples very often. Very well, as absurd as that subjectively sounds to me, so be it. He's interested in unusual recording techniques. Very well, so be it. But it doesn't matter whether the horns play in the back of the hall, in front, left, right, dead center, on a balcony or through a toilet bowl - as long as the notes that come out are still crap, as long as the orchestration is still dull, the score will be dull, too.

I can't believe, and I mean this in the strongest possible meaning of this expression, that Hans Zimmer has been working on this score since last October.

How he can call At World's End "flamboyant" is beyond me. It's maybe "as flamboyant as Hans Zimmer gets", but it's defintely not flamboyant in the traditional meaning of the word. To pompously announce "I can write swashbuckling music in the tradition of the old pirate films in my sleep, it's easy", and then come out with something like At World's End is not only insulting, it's an embarassment to the whole film score world.

No wonder truly inventive film scores can't get a foot, or even the big toe, into mainstream, when Pirates Of The Caribbean is presented as the ultimate incarnation of swashbuckling music.

And now the main argument of all PotC defenders, that the music is perfect because the movie doesn't want to be pure pirate films, doesn't count anymore, too. Because Hans Zimmer recently proclaimed it as "old-fashioned swashbuckling music" himself.

And so, the maestro himself reveals that he is utterly inadequate.

I can't understand why some people are going bananas over this.

[Ollie 1,059]

Frankly I don't even worry about giving it a listen. My ears will be assaulted when I watch the film.

[bondo 33]

I don't like "Gladiator"'s action music and I am not a big fan of "KA", which has its moments, but is nothing special for me overall. I generally dislike the "Cimson Tide" like music so whenever HZ goes thas way, I am not satisifed. The recent action tracks from HZ which I enjoy come mostly from "The Last Samurai" and "Pearl Harbor" (and its bootleg complete score).

Again, just because people dislike Zimmer music doesn't mean it's not epic... those are totally separate arguments.

And Cutthroat Island was by Debney. And it seems like you're kind of pigeon-holing the swashbuckling score genre. Just because I've heard one epic score doesn't mean I don't want to hear another one.

Oh come on, you know what I was saying. People chide Debney for sounding like Silvestri. An Alan Silvestri-pirate score would not be dissimilar to Cutthroat Island or The Mummy Returns. And obviously when I say The Mummy Returns, I'm referring to the fact that it's an adventurous, loud, quasi-serious action score the likes of which Pirates of the Caribbean deserves.

In point of fact, it was the Zimmer-haters who pidgeonholed pirate music when Curse of the Black Pearl came out. I recall many a Badelt-hater claiming that "synth music isn't pirate music," implying that there's a specific type of music for the genre.

Soundtrack.net wrote a great article summarizing the score and how the themes have developed since the first film:

http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=233

[Romão 2,274]

Soundtrack.net sure have done their share to promote and hype this thing.

[bondo 33]

Regardless, that doesn't detract from the validity of it. It's still a very interesting (and correct) article.

[Jeshopk 8]

I just don't understand how Zimmer is worth all this discussion. He's... so so. I don't love him or hate him. I don't understand why people seem to agree that POTC movies wouldn't work with real orchestral scores. Just because you can't imagine it any other way now doesn't mean it would not have worked.

[bondo 33]

It's not so much that they wouldn't work with orchestral scores, it's that it's a moot point. People get so hung up on Silvestri leaving the project and the "what if's" that the music isn't taken for what it is, but what it could have been.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Even without that, I still find the music rather grating for most of the first two films.

Third one is a bit more enjoyable, but it still has the trademark Zimmer chaos (lots of instruments bluntly hammering away at the same notes), which I suppose you either love or hate.

[Ollie 1,059]

I hate.

[Morlock 11]

I like.

Morlock- who thinks that while there are some rather terrible chaotic moments, overall, the scores for the first two films are good for the films

[Delorean90 42]

I don't like "Gladiator"'s action music and I am not a big fan of "KA", which has its moments, but is nothing special for me overall. I generally dislike the "Cimson Tide" like music so whenever HZ goes thas way, I am not satisifed. The recent action tracks from HZ which I enjoy come mostly from "The Last Samurai" and "Pearl Harbor" (and its bootleg complete score).

Again, just because people dislike Zimmer music doesn't mean it's not epic... those are totally separate arguments.

And Cutthroat Island was by Debney. And it seems like you're kind of pigeon-holing the swashbuckling score genre. Just because I've heard one epic score doesn't mean I don't want to hear another one.

Oh come on, you know what I was saying. People chide Debney for sounding like Silvestri. An Alan Silvestri-pirate score would not be dissimilar to Cutthroat Island or The Mummy Returns. And obviously when I say The Mummy Returns, I'm referring to the fact that it's an adventurous, loud, quasi-serious action score the likes of which Pirates of the Caribbean deserves.

In point of fact, it was the Zimmer-haters who pidgeonholed pirate music when Curse of the Black Pearl came out. I recall many a Badelt-hater claiming that "synth music isn't pirate music," implying that there's a specific type of music for the genre.

Soundtrack.net wrote a great article summarizing the score and how the themes have developed since the first film:

http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=233

Point taken. I guess it comes down to that I wouldn't mind either one of those composers writing another swashbuckling score. I'd rather like it.

There is quite a bit of precedent when it comes to "pirate music," although I won't necessarily say it can't be done without synths. I can see why they would say that synth music isn't pirate music, and I would prefer a big, swashbuckling adventure film to be scored with a large orchestra and utilizing some of the standard conventions within the composer's own voice and style. That said, I won't shut out the possibility of synths in "pirate music." Still, I can't say that I think that (at least the first film) has done it as well as it could be done.

[bondo 33]

Cutthroat Island spoiled me - THAT is pirate music at it's finest. I would welcome another orchestral pirate score, but to my ears, nothing will ever top Debney's masterpiece.

That said, I think Zimmer did a good job matching the tone of the film with his music in PotC 2 & 3. The first score of course was a temp nightmare because it was severely rushed. The 2nd and 3rd, however, obviously had a lot more thought put into them. Zimmer was clearly inspired by the project(s) because of the experimentation he did and the eclectic nature of the scores.

But they're definitely not everyone's cup of tea.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Zimmer was clearly inspired by the project(s)

The eternal silly comment.

Just because you like a score doesn't mean the composer was inspired while doing it.

How do you know Zimmer (and his monkey's) were inspired, can you look in his mind?

[Hlao-roo 389]

Zimmer was clearly inspired by the project(s)

The eternal silly comment.

Just because you like a score doesn't mean the composer was inspired while doing it.

How do you know Zimmer (and his monkey's) were inspired, can you look in his mind?

It may be silly if you take it literally, but I accept it as standard "reviewer's vernacular," if you will; it's not at all uncommon in criticism to attempt to get inside the artist's head. The oft-lobbed "[Artist's name] was clearly on auto-pilot" may be equally silly -- for all we know, the composer worked his ass off day in and day to be as creative and imaginative as possible -- but I can still see myself levelling the charge if it seemed as though the finished product were just more of the same.

[Ollie 1,059]

The same accusations have been leveled at Williams (The Patriot, AOTC, ROTS).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but we really cannot know wether or not Williams was insipred by the film, or just fullfilling a contract or grabbing some money.

We can use our knowledge of the composer and his music and make a guess, but that's all.

[Ollie 1,059]

Correct.

[fommes 153]

Totally as a side-note, but I wanted to comment on the 'inspired' thing.

For me, a score can be inspired (example is PoA), without saying anything whether the composer himself was in a particular inspiring mood. The score can put forward an abundance of ideas, which I call inspired. The composer himself may very well have the flu when he wrote it, I don't care whether he was feeling inspired or not. The composer can be inspired and write a totally bad and boring score, and vice versa.

Oh, to return to the debate. We all know Williams can write inspired scores in his sleep!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Very good point, most people seem to confuse this. Just because a score inspires us, doesn't mean the composer was inspired.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Spoken truly like someone who has never done anything creative in his life.

The film may not be the sole inspirational factor, but the combination of a variety of sources, to deny that is to either be a deconstructionist or a fool.

[Morlock 11]

Would you mind explaining that? Since I don't see how what you're saying debunks what Steef is saying.

[Ollie 1,059]

So are we agreeing or disagreeing that a composer can or cannot be inspired by a film and we can notice it in their music?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I've done creative things in my life. Once again someone claims to have knowledge that he cannot posses.

Inspiration can be important in a art (or craft) as film scoring. But considering inspiration is a very unreliable thing. You canm't depend on it when you have a deadline. So any effective film composer also has a bag of tricks that he can call upon, based on his knowledge, his education his experience and the temp track.

To say every Williams score is a result of pure inspiration is rather unrealistic, to be frank.

[bondo 33]

Zimmer was clearly inspired by the project(s)

The eternal silly comment.

Just because you like a score doesn't mean the composer was inspired while doing it.

How do you know Zimmer (and his monkey's) were inspired, can you look in his mind?

If you want to argue semantics about THAT, go for it, but I'm not going to qualify my obvious remarks.

Sorry!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Inspiration is merely unconcious creativity, to deny that that it is an element in any creative work is rather absurd, to be frank.

To say every Williams score is a result of pure inspiration is rather unrealistic, to be frank.

I do not believe anyone has made such a claim, but I've ignored the stupid posts in this thread.

[bondo 33]

Yes, but we really cannot know wether or not Williams was insipred by the film, or just fullfilling a contract or grabbing some money.

We can use our knowledge of the composer and his music and make a guess, but that's all.

Kinda like when people say "Zimmer sucks" or "This score sucks".... it doesn't really.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Post Gladiator action/spectacle from Zimmer isn't really my cup of tea.

[fommes 153]

Inspiration is merely unconcious creativity, to deny that that it is an element in any creative work is rather absurd, to be frank.

Of course it's an element in the creative process. But it's nothing you can trace in a work in a causal, linear sort of way. I'm much more interested in the work itself. Whether or not the composer was inspired by ten million things - or not - I don't care. It has little effect on the question whether the work itself is an 'inspired/inspirational' work. I don't want to say that it inspires me. It's more like synonymous for 'good' if you will. But anyway, I'm sounding a bit more formalistic here than I want to. Carry on

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Carry on

We shall.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Well Clemenson saw fit to add one more star to these scores. It's amazing.

[Ollie 1,059]

Clemmenson's overhyping a score again.

[John Crichton 4]

Here's the link to that review:

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/pirates_caribbean3.html

A good summation of not only the score's but Zimmer's problems as well.

[Ollie 1,059]

My mistake, he didn't overhype it.

[John Crichton 4]

Well here I was thinking you were just being sarcastic.

[Ollie 1,059]

For a moment I was but Zimmer's getting too much attention on this board as it is. Didn't want to bring more of his defenders out.

[bondo 33]

Of course Clemmenson didn't care for it, that's no surprise! He's not a fan of the Zimmer action sound. My favorite part is:

"Especially for those of us who have heard Zimmer from the start, how can we blindly accept this music for a historical Caribbean pirate genre when it's already seen its glory days in scenes where fighter planes are bombing Alcatraz Island and George Clooney is chasing nukes from a helicopter?"

...despite the fact that every other composer does it. Why do we hear bits of Eraser and Judge Dredd in kids movies like Mouse Hunt and Lilo & Stitch (Silvestri)? Why do we hear The Lost World in Minority Report (Williams)? Or US Marshals in Star Trek (Goldsmith)? Or Willow in Star Trek 2, Enemy at the Gates, The Perfect Storm, and Troy (Horner)? Hmmmmmmm.....

I imagine the complete versions of all three POTC scores would allow us to hear better permutations of the themes than the current CDs allow for, especially Dead Man's Chest and At World's End.