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The OFFICIAL The Dark Knight thread


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Indeed. The one I noticed most was a tiny moment in the trailer that I loved, that was not in the film. It's just a split-second shot of The Joker launching an RPG in which his expression is fantastic. It's strange, but I really missed it in the film (it looked like they used the same take for the last RPG he launched, but used only a tiny bit of the already short shot).

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Indeed. The one I noticed most was a tiny moment in the trailer that I loved, that was not in the film. It's just a split-second shot of The Joker launching an RPG in which his expression is fantastic. It's strange, but I really missed it in the film (it looked like they used the same take for the last RPG he launched, but used only a tiny bit of the already short shot).

Yeah I noticed that. It was one of my favorite Joker moments prior to seeing the film actually.

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Glad to here I'm not alone in that. That snippet captured my hopes for The Joker in the film. But there were plenty of those moments in the film itself. The pencil bit was great because of how it wasn't treated like A Moment, more like a throwaway bit of character. I was so grateful that Nolan didn't cut a close-up of some sort.

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the truck sequence had good impact, especially when it hit, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

actually it did because the trailers gave you a false impression of how the scene worked.

I think it was too much like the truck scene in Terminator 3. And I prefer the latter. The chase scene was definately set up as a classic scene, meant to be in the same league as the Raider's truck scene (which is copied in Transporter).

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I don't understand, the appearance of a skinless human face isn't something they "just came up with". It's supposed to look like The Mummy and Terminator, because they were supposed to look like skinless human faces in the first place (only one was robotic).

As for the

hospital, I was very annoyed that the most impressive shot was included on the trailer, diminishing the effect in the film. the same for the flipping truck.

! Grrr.

Read "The Long Halloween" comic. Harvey appears in that as he does in TDK. So no, they didn't simply copy Mummy or Terminator, but rather followed the source material. Why is every one so determined to say that he looks like something else, when he is simply looking like he is supposed to.

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I did not leave the cinema with the impression Harvey was dead.

If there is a third film, I certainly hope he will come back.

Huh? That seems intrinsically clear. The Joker on the other hand....I suspect he was to play a major part in the third film.

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First, a couple of comments: I agree with pretty much all of the comments on how, even though the trailer seemed to show a lot, it gave the impression of a totally different scenario for much of the footage shown. Nicely done. And I do recognize what you guys are talking about with that trailer shot of Joker firing the RPG.

I also share the hope that Harvey will return in the third film. I really don't get why people say his arc is complete, there's nowhere else to go. Watch the TAS "Two-Face" two-parter and tell me that. It seems like there's a lot of room for further investigation of the themes of the Two-Face character, such as the relationship between morality and chance. If he was going to be finished in the second, I would much rather there have been something like the TAS episode. He could still die, but I wanted to see him return to himself one last time, maybe dying in a moment of self-sacrifice. You would still have the dilemma causing Batman to take the fall because he still killed those people.

Now, as for Robin: I think he could actually work well. The whole point of Robin is that he's another one of the people trying to keep Bruce from "falling into the abyss," to reference Mask of the Phantasm. And Gordon, Alfred, and Robin all have different connections to him in that realm, different dynamics. Not only does Dick become a surrogate son to Bruce, but they are empathetic to eachother's situation because they both went through it. Again, TAS did a good job of portraying the character maturely and significantly--they had the same concerns. They didn't want to water anything down, they didn't want to have some dumb goofy sidekick making things all childish. And they didn't. It worked. And it can work in this case, and I think it would actually be appropos, because I could easily see Bruce/Batman getting more withdrawn and dark, and Robin comes in to pull him back to some degree. There are definitely possibilities.

What's interesting about the whole situation here is that the twist ending of TDK puts Batman in a position he has never been before in any incarnation that I'm aware of--certainly not for any major length of time. You have to go somewhere with this. If nothing else, Batman needs to have the reputation as a cop killer be in doubt. In this case, he's actually being held responsible. In the comics, etc., Batman may be accused by some of the public, or suspected, but there's never an out-and-out statement of his responsibility. My assumption was that Nolan was building up to the status quo dynamic of the comics and cartoons, where he seems to be doomed to be Batman forever. Of course, after I actually saw the first film, the optimism and realism both almost led me to believe that maybe, even if he isn't able to put down the cape, by the end of the third film, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know. But any which way you slice it, no way is the Nolan series or arc complete, and no way are we out of solid story potential.

And don't forget, things get worse...before they get better...

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Morlock, villians never really die in comic books.

Eckhart has already said in interviews that he would love to be back.

This is a movie, not a comic book. Especially in this filmic world, which stresses reality and believability (under the circumstances). If he's not dead, I will lose a lot of respect for Nolan, Goyer and co.

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the truck doing the American Graffiti thing was a damn good climax to what was a tepid chase. Spending a good amount of time watching Batman ride his bike at relatively low speeds and machine gunning garbage bins wasn't all that exciting.

Yeah, that was one of the moments where I was thinking some cutting was in order.

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And don't forget, things get worse...before they get better...

It would take some real balls to make an optimistic third film. I don't know if the current climate would be hospitable to that. This film felt like parts 2 & 3 of a saga.....I have my doubts that they will be able to pull off a grander finale.

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I loved the entire chase scene as a whole. Isolating it to the Batpod stuff isn't doing it justice, I don't think. It was just a really cool sequence. That actually reminds me of another thing from the trailer whose impact wasn't lessened because of the altered context, and that is when the Tumbler

jumps in front of that last RPG.

Such a great moment.

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And don't forget, things get worse...before they get better...

It would take some real balls to make an optimistic third film. I don't know if the current climate would be hospitable to that. This film felt like parts 2 & 3 of a saga.....I have my doubts that they will be able to pull off a grander finale.

Grander finale?

Feels more like a cliffhanger too me.

HIGHLIGHT:

Batman taking the fall for Dent's crimes, any respect or popularity enjoyed by the public gone, Gotham's finest on his heels, ready to bring him to justice for killing their own....

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They managed it for ROTJ, Alien 3, The Matrix Revolutions....

Alien 3 and The Matrix Revolutions are both terrible.

ROTJ is decent, nowhere near the quality of Empire, nor does it give the 1977 original much to worry about either.

However, when compared to any of the appalling prequel films which later followed? ROTJ becomes a flawless masterpiece.

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Are you saying that The Lord of The Rings has three different parts, and is not a sprawling 11-hours epic?!

Ummm........

How about Lethal Weapon 3, Die Hard 3...Oceans 13?

But all jokes aside, there WILL be a another Batman film, the powers that be cannot ignore the financial possibilities.

As for Harvey Dent.

We saw him fall down, we never saw him actually die.

In Superhero movies, if you kill your villian, you show it!

You trow him from a sky-scraper, the TOP of a skyscraper.

If Nolan intended for Dent to be dead, he would have shown us breathing his last breath.

We did not see it, meaning Nolan wanted to leave us in the dark about it.

I Believe In Harvey Dent's Survival!

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Good points. Another thing about it is that you would think Batman would have had a bit more of a reaction if he had just inadvertently caused Harvey's death. Yeah, he was trying to save the kid, not kill Dent, but nonetheless, it was a man he had respect for, and, I think, grew to care about, and then when you throw that on top of his own code, I would expect him to say or do something about it.

And Morlock, as Steef said, it COMPLETELY feels like a part 2 of 3. I think every time I have seen someone say that they felt like the first two was enough, they have ended up saying that their biggest thing is really that they just don't know how they can top TDK.

First off, I don't see why anyone has to TOP TDK, quality-wise. Just even making a film of equal quality would be terrific accomplishment. I, for one, would even be pleased with something on the quality level of Begins. Now, I for one just don't see the same crew suddenly losing all their talent and skill just because this is the third film. I think they can still pull it off, and I think there is plenty of story material with which to do it.

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Yeah, it definately feels like the middle part of a trilogy, and it's going to be interesting to see what alternate plans they come up with. I agree that the Joker was probably meant for a major role in part 3, and after Ledger's remarkable performance you just can't recast.

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True, I don't see how the Joker could be used in a third film.

But I am actually not sure that was ever their intention.

The Joker story arc was basically resolved when the people on the 2 ferries decided against using the detinators, showing that his claim that civilised people turn to their selfish or survival instincts when chaos invades their lives was not true.

For me the continuation of the Joker's madness was in Harvey Dent, who in my mind still has an story arc.

And finally, did anyone else find the scene were the big, black, mean-looking convict trown the detonator out of the porthole a moment of simple but pure genius?

I love it when a film tricks you by not giving you what you were expecting.

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True, I don't see how the Joker could be used in a third film.

But I am actually not sure that was ever their intention.

The Joker story arc was basically resolved when the people on the 2 ferries decided against using the detinators, showing that his claim that civilised people turn to their selfish or survival instincts when chaos invades their lives was not true.

For me the continuation of the Joker's madness was in Harvey Dent, who in my mind still has an story arc.

True, but that was not all to the Joker's character and I think he still had more chaos to bring. But regardless of the original plan, what you suggest at the end would probably be the best course of action now under the circumstances.

And finally, did anyone else find the scene were the big, black, mean-looking convict trown the detonator out of the porthole a moment of simple but pure genius?

Yes!

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True, I don't see how the Joker could be used in a third film.

But I am actually not sure that was ever their intention.

The Joker story arc was basically resolved when the people on the 2 ferries decided against using the detinators, showing that his claim that civilised people turn to their selfish or survival instincts when chaos invades their lives was not true.

For me the continuation of the Joker's madness was in Harvey Dent, who in my mind still has an story arc.

There goes your theory about "a villain is only dead if you REALLY SEE him die."

Having said that, I don't think the Joker will be in the next one, because trying to match Ledger's performance would be impossible.

And finally, did anyone else find the scene were the big, black, mean-looking convict trown the detonator out of the porthole a moment of simple but pure genius?

Yeah, that was one of the best parts. It was rather ironic, as the criminals were the ones who were going to do the right thing, and the others who were on the verge is blowing it up.

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Indy4

I never stated that the joker was dead, that would be stupid.

but traditionally in the comics in whatever form, the villians get locked up in Arkham Asylum

anyway, so they can escape and come back. :P

Perhaps that was a plan for the third film...perhaps they had no real plan yet.

But the Joker should stay in Arkham....

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I find it funny that people are saying TDK should be the end. It's a cliffhanger. Just because it was amazing and the next one probably won't be as good doesn't mean there isn't solid story material.

And I don't think it'll be cheap to bring Two_Face back. If you know anything about Nolan's films you know he's very deliberate about what he shows and doesn't show. Why would Dent die from that fall? Batman and Maroni didn't. And the language and imagery only referred to Harvey Dent. But by the end of the movie Dent is dead anyways and is now Two-Face. Like I said, Nolan is very specific in what he shows and doesn't show. You never see a body. The language is cryptic and only deals with ideals, i.e. what Dent stood for. And as someone else pointed out somewhere, having Dent locked away in Arkham secretly would continue the War on Terror parallels they've been building so far.

Add that with one of the producers saying something akin to Dent's body not being shown on purpose would indicate Two-Face will return. And really, considering the small fall he experienced, it's not a stretch, even in a realistic franchise to bring him back.

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And finally, did anyone else find the scene were the big, black, mean-looking convict trown the detonator out of the porthole a moment of simple but pure genius?

Yes!

Indeed. Got a huge cheer. That together with "But we're still here, which means they haven't pushed the button either", are two of the beautifully sincere moments that elevated the movie for me.

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Morlock, villians never really die in comic books.

Eckhart has already said in interviews that he would love to be back.

This is a movie, not a comic book. Especially in this filmic world, which stresses reality and believability (under the circumstances). If he's not dead, I will lose a lot of respect for Nolan, Goyer and co.

I pretty much agree. The ending to TDK would lose it's impact.

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But what do you think of my theory regarding Harvey Dent's survival?

I would be very dissapointed if that were true. Not because I don't think more can be done with Dent (although I do think that his arc in this film was well-rendered and felt complete), but because it would cause me to lose trust in Nolan and co. I think the film clearly shows, irrelevant of it being a comic-book film, that Dent died. The imagry implied a symmetry in his and Batman's bodies, the two knights. The White Knight was destroyed, the Dark Knight drags himself up to fight another day to preserve what the White Knight stood for. And the death is underlined by the service in his memory, with not even the slightest allusion that he might not be dead. I trust the filmmakers not to decieve me in this fashion. And this is underlined by the way they handled Gordon's 'death'. While I felt it was not perfectly handled narratively-wise, there was no direct follow up to Gordon's death. No service, no Batman mourning, nothing. No unnecessary gratuity in what turned out to not be gratuitous. With Dent, he had a death scene, and a follow up to the death scene.

I've been finding that the movie was even more powerful than I thought. I genuinely get emotional just expressing my observations on elements of it. Speaking of which, I love the fact that the filmmakers found room for the shot of The Joker with his head outside of police car. Not even sure what the shot is, but I was not expecting it in that fashion (it was in the trailer), and it has some sort of impressionistic quality to it that I love.

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I would be very dissapointed if that were true. Not because I don't think more can be done with Dent (although I do think that his arc in this film was well-rendered and felt complete), but because it would cause me to lose trust in Nolan and co. I think the film clearly shows, irrelevant of it being a comic-book film, that Dent died. The imagry implied a symmetry in his and Batman's bodies, the two knights. The White Knight was destroyed, the Dark Knight drags himself up to fight another day to preserve what the White Knight stood for. And the death is underlined by the service in his memory, with not even the slightest allusion that he might not be dead. I trust the filmmakers not to decieve me in this fashion. And this is underlined by the way they handled Gordon's 'death'. While I felt it was not perfectly handled narratively-wise, there was no direct follow up to Gordon's death. No service, no Batman mourning, nothing. No unnecessary gratuity in what turned out to not be gratuitous. With Dent, he had a death scene, and a follow up to the death scene.

I see what you're saying to a point, but The White Knight

is destroyed, whether Dent is alive in body or not. That was the whole point. No matter what happens now, he has commited multiple murders. Even if he comes back to sanity (which I would love to see, and would continue the symmetry/parallel between Batman and Dent, in giving them both some kind of redemption in the third film), the public would know that he has commited these crimes, and so in that sense, he is indeed destroyed.

As far as the handling of Gordon's "death" versus the handling of Dent at the end goes: Well, Gordon really got more of a death scene than Harvey did, with him getting shot, and Dent's reaction, and then the cops going to tell Barbara of the news. At the end, really, the dialogue dwells on what Batman decides to do with the people. Batman and Gordon do not acknowledge Harvey as being bodily dead with any dialogue or emotion. The only indication we get is a brief shot of a memorial service. As I said before, I think Batman might have a little more acknowledgment for inadvertently killing a man he respected and, I think, began to care for.

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I've been finding that the movie was even more powerful than I thought. I genuinely get emotional just expressing my observations on elements of it. Speaking of which, I love the fact that the filmmakers found room for the shot of The Joker with his head outside of police car. Not even sure what the shot is, but I was not expecting it in that fashion (it was in the trailer), and it has some sort of impressionistic quality to it that I love.

That shot was showing Joker escaping from jail, hence why he was in a cop car. It was also done (in my mind) to show the character's disturbing care-free and even euphoric mind-set, in light of what he had just done (

killing, Rachel, Scarring Dent, etc.

).

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I know where it came narratively...but I'm not entirely sure what it means. It's the one shot that to me shows more to Joker than we see elsewhere in the film. I'm not sure what exactly that is, but I loved it. Liked I said...it struck me as impressionistic.

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I know where it came narratively...but I'm not entirely sure what it means. It's the one shot that to me shows more to Joker than we see elsewhere in the film. I'm not sure what exactly that is, but I loved it. Liked I said...it struck me as impressionistic.

I loved that shot in the trailer but what makes it even better in the film is that there's almost no sound with it.

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I would be very dissapointed if that were true. Not because I don't think more can be done with Dent (although I do think that his arc in this film was well-rendered and felt complete), but because it would cause me to lose trust in Nolan and co. I think the film clearly shows, irrelevant of it being a comic-book film, that Dent died. The imagry implied a symmetry in his and Batman's bodies, the two knights. The White Knight was destroyed, the Dark Knight drags himself up to fight another day to preserve what the White Knight stood for. And the death is underlined by the service in his memory, with not even the slightest allusion that he might not be dead. I trust the filmmakers not to decieve me in this fashion. And this is underlined by the way they handled Gordon's 'death'. While I felt it was not perfectly handled narratively-wise, there was no direct follow up to Gordon's death. No service, no Batman mourning, nothing. No unnecessary gratuity in what turned out to not be gratuitous. With Dent, he had a death scene, and a follow up to the death scene.

I see what you're saying to a point, but The White Knight

is destroyed, whether Dent is alive in body or not. That was the whole point. No matter what happens now, he has commited multiple murders. Even if he comes back to sanity (which I would love to see, and would continue the symmetry/parallel between Batman and Dent, in giving them both some kind of redemption in the third film), the public would know that he has commited these crimes, and so in that sense, he is indeed destroyed.

As far as the handling of Gordon's "death" versus the handling of Dent at the end goes: Well, Gordon really got more of a death scene than Harvey did, with him getting shot, and Dent's reaction, and then the cops going to tell Barbara of the news. At the end, really, the dialogue dwells on what Batman decides to do with the people. Batman and Gordon do not acknowledge Harvey as being bodily dead with any dialogue or emotion. The only indication we get is a brief shot of a memorial service. As I said before, I think Batman might have a little more acknowledgment for inadvertently killing a man he respected and, I think, began to care for.

I see your point, but frankly, the White Knight is gone, whether Two-Face survives, so the emotional impact of Batman carrying on the White Knight's legacy still remains, whether Dent is dead or not.

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But the Joker should stay in Arkham....

I think their plan for the third film was that The Joker would remain in Arkham and Batman would go to visit him for information - ala Hannibal Lecter.

If they go that route they could make the Joker work. Have him sitting in the shadows of his cell.

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But the Joker should stay in Arkham....

I think their plan for the third film was that The Joker would remain in Arkham and Batman would go to visit him for information - ala Hannibal Lecter.

If they go that route they could make the Joker work. Have him sitting in the shadows of his cell.

That would work....except why would Joker help Batman out? The character only appreciates chaos and pain. Unless he deliberately misleads Batman...but Batman should see that coming.

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