The OFFICIAL The Dark Knight thread

[Red 75]

Red Rabbit: I don't think it should be a matter of topping it. I think even something on par with either of these films would be desirable. And frankly, outside of the crew all getting lobotomies, I don't see how we could really find ourselves with a film that is dramatically worse in quality than Begins and TDK.

True. It's just that after TDK improved upon Begins the natural next step would be for something to be better than TDK, which is a tall order. As much as I liked Begins (and still do), to have the next sequel just be on the level of that would be disappointing coming off of TDK.

[crocodile 7,990]

My thoughts exactly. I can't see much potential in Catwoman, or Penguin. They worked already in Batman Returns, in a somewhat twisted sort of way. And it was very different from their comic book counterparts. And it was the most interesting take on these characters as you can get. There is no point of doing that again. Riddler is not a very interesting character. Mr. Freeze? Poison Ivy? Clay Face? It is another genre altogether. I can't seem them in this modern version. The Joker is a different beast, and so is Two-Face.

Karol

[Delorean90 42]

First off, I think you can make the Riddler character interesting. They did a good job with him on TAS. Secondly, I think that they should bring Harvey/Two-Face back. I think the ending, though leaning toward him really being dead, is gray enough for it to work. I also think that they should take his character in a direction along the lines of TAS, with Bruce/Batman really trying hard to bring him back to himself.

I think Penguin would be a great character to introduce in a fashion more similar to the comics/TNBA. He should start to head up more of the organized crime sect of the city, since Falcone and Maroni are both out of the picture. Rupert Thorne could possibly come in as part of the last wave of the traditional organized crime, and Penguin representing that gray area between him and criminals like the Joker and other stranger members of the Rogues Gallery. You could really go somewhere with this. Perhaps deal with a true war breaking out between the different types of lawbreakers.

Catwoman I would like to see done in Nolan's universe. I can kind of see what you're saying, but I think the character could work, and take on an additional significance due to the new standing Batman has in society. There could be an interesting struggle: Batman trying to pull her to the side of good (and her at least helping to some degree), and Catwoman trying to pull Batman further to her side, playing on the fact that Gotham will now be convinced that he killed the people that Harvey did.

Clayface definitely shouldn't be in the Nolan films, but I've heard ideas for Mr. Freeze, like giving him some kind of liquid nitrogen gun if you didn't want to go all-out with the freeze gun. I really would like to see the character done in a film that doesn't shame him. Ahnold was even fairly good when given the opportunity, but he was stuck in Schumacher's funhouse. But I thought part of the point of the "escalation" dialogue at the end of Begins was that we'll be seeing more theatrical villains and such--even if not as fantastical as something like Clayface. So I wouldn't mind stretching out a bit more.

Now, just those ideas for Penguina and Catwoman, especially if you throw in Harvey, threatens to overload. But that's kind of my point: there's still a lot of ways you can go in this franchise.

[Red 75]

I could see Riddler, Penguin, or Catwoman in the third film fairly easily. I don't know, I suppose we'll just have to see. Nolan seems very reluctant to talk about a possible sequel.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think Catwomen is still damaged goods after the Halle Berry debacle.

[crocodile 7,990]

You can't blame Nolan for being reluctant. It was Goyer, who planned sequels, not Nolan. He said he wanted to make TDK as complete and as finished as possible.

It's not that I don't want another film. I'm just afraid of it.

TDK, for me, is a standalone movie. I never thought of the ending as a cliffhanger. For me it just suggests what Batman is: a vigilante. At least to general public. He's the ultimate rebel, never compromising. His quest never ends, much like Superman's, but in a dark way. Gordon sums up it perfectly at the end. I like it being that way. It was more mature to have a character do his stuff at odds with everyone. I thought it was brave to end a summer movie on that very note.

As for Harvey Dent surviving... I don't really see the point. You can make him continue his "battle", of course, but the most important thing about this character has benn already said in TDK. Can you really picture him, as portrayed here, being a full blown criminal? I can't. He's a broken man with no motivation at all and trying to piece together his life again. Making him a typical villain at this point would be cliche. Unless you make it a redemption story. But then again this is noir Batman film after all, and those just can't end on a happy note. It would be cheating.

Did anyone noticed that we're referring to the Eckheart character as Harvey Dent and not Two-Face?

Oh, and the Wayne Manor is mentioned early on by Alfred.

Karol - noticing that the only true heroic character in the film is the black guy from the ferry.

[Delorean90 42]

You can't blame Nolan for being reluctant. It was Goyer, who planned sequels, not Nolan. He said he wanted to make TDK as complete and as finished as possible.

It's not that I don't want another film. I'm just afraid of it.

I understand to a degree.

TDK, for me, is a standalone movie. I never thought of the ending as a cliffhanger. For me it just suggests what Batman is: a vigilante. At least to general public. He's the ultimate rebel, never compromising. His quest never ends, much like Superman's, but in a dark way. I like it being that way. And I thought it was brave to end a summer movie on that very note.

Well, that's what I was saying--partially. What you said about him never compromising, and his quest never ending--that's the way it's been. TDK doesn't do that, though. TDK pushes his reputation over the edge: the public sees him as a killer now.

If it did nothing beyond what your words just said, then I would be far more inclined to agree. But this goes beyond that, and that needs to be dealt with.

As for Harvey Dent surviving... I don't really see the point. You can make him continue his "battle", of course, but the most important thing about this character has benn already said in TDK. Can you really picture him, as portrayed here, being a full blown criminal? I can't. He's a broken man with no motivation at all and trying to piece together his life again. Making him a typical villain at this point would be cliche. Unless you make it a redemption story. But then again this is noir Batman film after all, and those just can't end on a happy note. It would be cheating.

A redemption story was exactly what I was thinking of. Have you seen The Animated Series? That's what I was referencing.

And I don't see it as cheating at all. Actually, what's interesting is that Begins actually had me (despite being a Batman fan and accepting the status quo that it presents) rooting for Bruce to come out of his quest victorious. With the setup that Begins has, I think it would be an unsatisfying slap in the face to not let it either A) end the series with Bruce seeing a light at the end of the tunnel or B) have him in the place that he essentially is in in the comics. I don't think it would be cheap at all to have Batman cleared of the murder charges. Then end it with him determined to maintain his quest as Batman for as long as it takes, but hopeful, and declaring he will never give up on the people of Gotham. Something like that would strike a good balance, I think.

Oh, and the Wayne Manor is mentioned early on by Alfred.

Ah, okay. I forgot about that. Nonetheless, I want to see the new Wayne Manor and the improved southeast wing foundation. Others have mentioned it, and it's true that that did take something from it to not have the cave. If anything, it gave more the feeling that this cannot be the end.

[Red 75]

Ah, okay. I forgot about that. Nonetheless, I want to see the new Wayne Manor and the improved southeast wing foundation. Others have mentioned it, and it's true that that did take something from it to not have the cave. If anything, it gave more the feeling that this cannot be the end.

The penthouse Wayne stayed in and the "Batbunker" were references from the comics as well. But I agree I definitely want to see the mansion and the cave again.

[crocodile 7,990]

Maybe you're right.

There will be another film, there's no question. Warner won't just let it go. We have to wait and see. But, for now, I'll stay cautious with my enthusiasm.

Karol

[Delorean90 42]

I understand.

Ah, okay. I forgot about that. Nonetheless, I want to see the new Wayne Manor and the improved southeast wing foundation. Others have mentioned it, and it's true that that did take something from it to not have the cave. If anything, it gave more the feeling that this cannot be the end.

The penthouse Wayne stayed in and the "Batbunker" were references from the comics as well. But I agree I definitely want to see the mansion and the cave again.

Really? What were they in?

[Red 75]

Really? What were they in?

There was a run in the 70's where he stayed in a penthouse in the middle of the city, and had a makeshift bat-cave there as well. I believe it was also because Wayne Manor was destroyed just like in Batman Begins.

[Delorean90 42]

That's interesting! I oughta look into those. Do you have any idea as to who or what caused the destruction?

[Red 75]

That's interesting! I oughta look into those. Do you have any idea as to who or what caused the destruction?

No, I don't know many specifics about it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I came back from my second viewing, and I'm fairly positive Two-Face is alive. His chest is moving continuously on the long shot of him on the ground. Also a little deeper thought: When Batman tackles him off the edge, the close-up of his coin is heads. Not sure if it's referencing to Gordon's son, but it could have a double meaning and refer to Two-Face.

[Vaderbait1 1]

I came back from my second viewing, and I'm fairly positive Two-Face is alive. His chest is moving continuously on the long shot of him on the ground. Also a little deeper thought: When Batman tackles him off the edge, the close-up of his coin is heads. Not sure if it's referencing to Gordon's son, but it could have a double meaning and refer to Two-Face.

I'm positive he's still alive. So far some "insider reports" (who knows how reliable these are) say Catwoman and the Riddler are pretty much ruled out. Which would add up if Two_Face is returning.

[QMM 4]

Coin was referencing Gordon's son

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yeah I think that's most likely what it was.

[David Coscina 3]

"Watch the World Burn" from this score is one of the most effective and chilling cues I have heard in a while. Credit JN Howard for this polyphonic string exercise in tension. It's those string suspensions that really work. The low ground bass in the double bass section reminds me of some Polish avant garde composers like Lutaslowski or maybe even Bach if he was a psychopath. I even like Zimmer's expansive The Dark Knight track even if it is merely an extrapolation of his original heroic theme from BB. The scene between Dent and Gordon which Howard's music accompanies is also one of the most inspired bits of filmmaking I have seen of late.

Pacing is too rushed but otherwise The Dark knight is a pretty damn great film.

[crocodile 7,990]

It was the only cue that I remember from the film and the only one that had any emotional impact whatsoever. I don't know, I really can't hear JNH in it. It's a typical Zimmer string adagio. It reminded me of Gorecki's Symphony of Sorrowful Songs, first movement to be exact. But that one lasted for something like 30 minutes! Zimmer is rewriting this piece all his life, if you ask me.

Karol

[David Coscina 3]

It was the only cue that I remember from the film and the only one that had any emotional impact whatsoever. I don't know, I really can't hear JNH in it. It's a typical Zimmer string adagio. It reminded me of Gorecki's Symphony of Sorrowful Songs, first movement to be exact. But that one lasted for something like 30 minutes! Zimmer is rewriting this piece all his life, if you ask me.

Karol

Karol, definitely this cue is inspired by Gorecki's use of the cantus firmus in his Symphony #3 but if you listen to the way the strings move within the section, it's more evident of Howard's contrapuntal technique over Zimmer's more homophonic string writing. Zimmer also does not use harmonic suspensions like JN Howard does. Put this cue up against parts of Unbreakable and you will hear similarities in the approach. I love the ground bass that is used in this cue too.

I agree that this music has the most dramatic impact and resonance of the entire score. But I do like parts of Zimmer's work (I know, I should be shot) especially in the final track The Dark Knight which has some small variations on his Batman heroic theme.

As a whole, the score is a little too schizophrenic. John Powell's HANCOCK is a better crafted hero score because there's consistency, dramatic build, and a timbral character to the music that identifies it as music to this movie. not a slew of other ones which is what I get from hearing Zimmer's work often.

Anyhow, I like your assessment of The Dark Knight being a self contained film. It ends very interestingly. and for what it's worth, most films I see these days totally mess up in their third act. Many start off well but just don't have the endurance to finish well. The Dark Knight finishes amazingly. If anything, its 3d act is its strongest. The Joker is more self actualized, as is Harvey Dent/Two Face. Batman becomes more of a specter and a symbol than a man which is the whole point of what Wayne was after in Batman Begins. and the socio-political underpinnings of this story are far reaching.

Anyone who thinks the Spiderman franchise is anywhere close to the quality of the new Batman Nolan vision is deluded. Spiderman is fine for kids and pop culture. Batman is becoming more like high art. I don't think the Dark Knight is brilliant in its totality but it has more than its share of brilliant moments which is more than I can say for anything I have seen in the past few years.

[Vaderbait1 1]

It was the only cue that I remember from the film and the only one that had any emotional impact whatsoever. I don't know, I really can't hear JNH in it. It's a typical Zimmer string adagio. It reminded me of Gorecki's Symphony of Sorrowful Songs, first movement to be exact. But that one lasted for something like 30 minutes! Zimmer is rewriting this piece all his life, if you ask me.

Karol

Karol, definitely this cue is inspired by Gorecki's use of the cantus firmus in his Symphony #3 but if you listen to the way the strings move within the section, it's more evident of Howard's contrapuntal technique over Zimmer's more homophonic string writing. Zimmer also does not use harmonic suspensions like JN Howard does. Put this cue up against parts of Unbreakable and you will hear similarities in the approach. I love the ground bass that is used in this cue too.

I agree that this music has the most dramatic impact and resonance of the entire score. But I do like parts of Zimmer's work (I know, I should be shot) especially in the final track The Dark Knight which has some small variations on his Batman heroic theme.

As a whole, the score is a little too schizophrenic. John Powell's HANCOCK is a better crafted hero score because there's consistency, dramatic build, and a timbral character to the music that identifies it as music to this movie. not a slew of other ones which is what I get from hearing Zimmer's work often.

Anyhow, I like your assessment of The Dark Knight being a self contained film. It ends very interestingly. and for what it's worth, most films I see these days totally mess up in their third act. Many start off well but just don't have the endurance to finish well. The Dark Knight finishes amazingly. If anything, its 3d act is its strongest. The Joker is more self actualized, as is Harvey Dent/Two Face. Batman becomes more of a specter and a symbol than a man which is the whole point of what Wayne was after in Batman Begins. and the socio-political underpinnings of this story are far reaching.

Anyone who thinks the Spiderman franchise is anywhere close to the quality of the new Batman Nolan vision is deluded. Spiderman is fine for kids and pop culture. Batman is becoming more like high art. I don't think the Dark Knight is brilliant in its totality but it has more than its share of brilliant moments which is more than I can say for anything I have seen in the past few years.

I agree. There is nothing in the Spiderman films that comes even close. The Nolan Batman movies have all-star actors, careful script-work, great and memorable dialog. The villains in Begins and TDK are better than any in the Spiderman verse (Venom is a great villain but wasted), and the darkness is treated much better in the Batman films. But these films are even better from the technical standpoint. Raimi's camera angles catch actors at their worst angles, make action look amateurish.

It sounds weird to say, but yes, Nolan's Bat-films are "high art" when we're talking about popular cinema.

[crocodile 7,990]

Karol, definitely this cue is inspired by Gorecki's use of the cantus firmus in his Symphony #3 but if you listen to the way the strings move within the section, it's more evident of Howard's contrapuntal technique over Zimmer's more homophonic string writing. Zimmer also does not use harmonic suspensions like JN Howard does. Put this cue up against parts of Unbreakable and you will hear similarities in the approach. I love the ground bass that is used in this cue too.

It might be true. After all, JNH was musically responsible for the Harvey Dent storyarc. Maybe the idea was to somewhat emulate Zimmer style for this cue. It was the bass writing you mention that led me to think it was composed by Hans. As you well know he used this type of low-register writing quite a bit in his career. But you're right, the cue is probably a little too dense for him.

Where in the film was this grand statement of Wayne family theme from the end of track 3 on the album? I don't recall hearing it.

As, for Hancock... Actually I thought it sounds quite schizophrenic. But I know where you're coming from.

Karol

[Koray Savas 2,251]

How does something sound schizophrenic?

[crocodile 7,990]

Well, when you use too many elements and the end result is all over the place. In the case of Hancock that would be too broad collection of styles and genres. I know it was part the concept, but you can't feel the progression. Or, at least, not to the same extent. Same with Prisoner of Azkaban. I like things being more coherent.

Karol

[Ollie 1,059]

Dent's not alive, he wasn't breathing. If you think he was it's just your imagination.

Although I could see the having to resort to that for the next film if the Joker was to be a major part. Which would be rather lame since they already had one die/comeback character in the film. To do it twice would be rather pointless and over doing it.

Dent's death is a flaw with this film.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Dent's not alive, he wasn't breathing. If you think he was it's just your imagination.

Although I could see the having to resort to that for the next film if the Joker was to be a major part. Which would be rather lame since they already had one die/comeback character in the film. To do it twice would be rather pointless and over doing it.

Dent's death is a flaw with this film.

If they bring back Dent -- which I don't think they will -- it will feel like a major cheat. At the end of The Dark Knight, he's dead; that's just all there is to it. If we were meant to think otherwise, Nolan would have done something to indicate it. He did no such thing; therefore, Dent is dead.

[Delorean90 42]

I think that being able to work with the character and explore the possibilities that remain for him (both from the perspective of character arc/development and that of the story) is worth bringing him back. If they do it right, I don't think it will feel like a cheat--or at least, not as much as it could.

[Neimoidian 14]

They were not the semi-finals!

It seems I have that memory loss too...

------------

As for the potential sequel, I am looking forward to it, though I worry that it won't stand up to the TDK. From the bunch of villains, I'd certainly like to see what Nolans and Goyer could make out The Riddler. In their story he could become somebody like Zodiac - a twisted psycho who takes fun in toying with these who chase him. It'd be interesting to see Catwoman again, however I cannot imagine how else the character could be explored if they don't want to follow Batman Returns track. On the other hand, she would easily fit the story as a

new love interest of Bruce Wayne, since Rachel is dead

.

I also noticed that

Dent wasn't breathing at the end of the film, so there is no chance of him coming back

.

Regarding score, I think that comparing it to the music of Górecki or Lutosławski is a bit of exaggeration.

[crocodile 7,990]

The Riddler might work that way indeed.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

But maybe the riddler, with this Nolan realism on real world would just make sudokus...

[David Coscina 3]

Regarding score, I think that comparing it to the music of Górecki or Lutosławski is a bit of exaggeration.

I only said that Howard took a compositional technique from the 20th Polish composers who had a penchant for writing dense string passages in the lower register. If there's more than one line going on below middle C in the string section, it stands to reason it's a Gorecki piece.

[Ollie 1,059]

I can't say I noticed much of JNH's music. Most of the score just felt like it was there, not obstructing the film but not doing much to enhance the film either. Of course the scene in question had my attention focused solely on the acting.

I also found myself lost in the cinematography. After 5 films of the gothic look of Gotham, it was nice to see a the city portrayed as a normal looking one.

[David Coscina 3]

I can't say I noticed much of JNH's music. Most of the score just felt like it was there, not obstructing the film but not doing much to enhance the film either. Of course the scene in question had my attention focused solely on the acting.

I also found myself lost in the cinematography. After 5 films of the gothic look of Gotham, it was nice to see a the city portrayed as a normal looking one.

Yeah, I agree. The Dark Knight felt much more grounded in realism than its previous installments. And how about that heist at the film's opening with William Fichner as a mob banker? Funny thing is, well before the Joker was revealed in that scene, I knew it was him when the truck picked him up and on the street. Based on the trailers, I could identify Ledger's posture for his character. I mean, how cool is that when an actor can make his character recognizable down to how he stands? Superb.

I want to see this again since it was a late showing when I first saw it with the wife (she liked it too BTW). The editing seemed very rushed to me and I found it hard to digest everything that was happening. Mind you, I loved the sound effects and sound effects editing. And the visual effects. Personally, based on the sub-par or lackluster Best Picture nominees from the past few years, I would love to see a summer click nominated. Remember Braveheart captured the prize back in 1996 (for Best Picture of 1995).

[Ollie 1,059]

Yeah I mentioned the visuals in my review. I thought the CGI/special effects and live action blended together well. In fact with the exception of Dent's face one might have a hard really picking out the CGI shots.

There was a time when the top grossing or summer blockbuster was nominated for best film come Oscar time. Grnated now it seems or feels like most of the Oscar films aren't released until November/December but I wonder if TDK has a chance because it is a well done film, even with several flaws.

Yeah I recognized Ledger in the opening as well.

[Red 75]

I also found myself lost in the cinematography. After 5 films of the gothic look of Gotham, it was nice to see a the city portrayed as a normal looking one.

Batman Begins had a gothic look?

[Ollie 1,059]

It had a similar look to the previous 4 films. Perhaps I shouldn't have used gothic in such general terms, but it had the same cluttered look with monorails and too many buildings. The city always felt like it smothered you.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Batman Begins looks similar to Batman & Robin to you?

Wow.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Only The Narrows looked cluttered, but i guess that was the point of the story.

[Ollie 1,059]

Here's a short video of JNH & HZ performing live at the premiere of TDK.

[John Crichton 4]

I see Zimmer is performing with his favorite orchestra.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Funny thing is, well before the Joker was revealed in that scene, I knew it was him when the truck picked him up and on the street. Based on the trailers, I could identify Ledger's posture for his character. I mean, how cool is that when an actor can make his character recognizable down to how he stands? Superb.

I recognized him based on the music.

[Red 75]

Only The Narrows looked cluttered, but i guess that was the point of the story.

Nolan said that he tried to model it after Blade Runner, the way it was so cluttered and rain-soaked.

[Richard Penna 3,676]

Funny thing is, well before the Joker was revealed in that scene, I knew it was him when the truck picked him up and on the street. Based on the trailers, I could identify Ledger's posture for his character. I mean, how cool is that when an actor can make his character recognizable down to how he stands? Superb.

I recognized him based on the music.

I did after he was revealed.

What I loved about that opening scene was not just how he was revealed, but how that grenade thing kind of foreshadowed how he would play with others' lives for the rest of the movie. He has a kind of random humanity about him that really reflects modern society.

It really is the Joker's movie. I could easily watch that character for a whole nother movie, which just makes Ledger's untimely death even more tragic.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He ha ho ha he ho ha, and I thought my jokes were bad.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It really is the Joker's movie. I could easily watch that character for a whole nother movie, which just makes Ledger's untimely death even more tragic.

Well I sort of disagree there, Eckhart was just about as good and as interesting. Bale did very well, with a little less to do this time and Gary Oldman was superb.

Thinking about it, I think the best choice madfe in this movie was not not reveal anything about the Joker or his motivations.

The last few years cinema's 2 most memorable villians, Darth Vader and Hannibal Lector have been virtually neutered by misguided attempts to show us exactly how and why they became so evil, and we were even asked to pity them or at least feel some symphathy.

[Red 75]

I agree with Steef. Although Joker is a big presence in the movie it has a lot more going for it then just that.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Not trying to pee on the yard here, but Burton's Joker had a background story that didn't evoke any pity or sympathy, it just added another layer of horror.

A layer that Dark Knight can't afford with so many story threads, I am aware.

[Ollie 1,059]

Ledger's Joker didn't need a backstory.

Steef is correct, Once we find out Vader's history he becomes less evil and less interesting. I don't need to know if The Joker was indeed assaulted by his dad or did it to himself.

The only thing we are witness to with Nicholson's Joker is how his face changed and that he was the catalyst for Wayne becoming Batman. He was already a killer.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

that same thing that neutered Vader and Lecter, ruined Michael Myers in the new Halloween, and what ruined a hero in Indiana Jones and the last crusade.

[crocodile 7,990]

I agree.

Well I sort of disagree there, Eckhart was just about as good and as interesting. Bale did very well, with a little less to do this time and Gary Oldman was superb.

I would say that The Dark Knight is more of a ensemble piece. It's not about Batman or Joker film, or even Harvey Dent. Nolan, in one of the interviews, told that he envisioned it as a film about city and its citizens. It could be as well titled Gotham City. That is the reason it feels so epic, I think.

Karol