The OFFICIAL The Dark Knight thread

[Joe Brausam 214]

Hey Koray, I was just curious if you happen to have any pictures of Zimmer/Howard from the signing last month?

Yes I do, but I'm terrible at uploading photos onto this forum.

Okay, that's no problem. If you get a chance, no rush, could you email one or two to joey225@aol.com? Thanks.

[Lurker 5]

Its rather strange that the classic Burton films are now regarded to be from the same bunch as the schummaker (or whatever) films.

Because they have been and always will be pieces of junk. The Burton films are as bad and nonsensical as the Schumacher's.

Neil

[Henry B 50]

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

There was nothing inherently great about Burton's Batman. It was an overly slow-paced undeservedly ultra-praised movie. It fit in with the rest of the pre-BB Batman universe quite nicely in terms of quality.

For once in my life I agree completely with Neil.

[indy4 155]

I dislike Burton's Batman, and he's my second favorite director.

His vision is, as always, dead on, but the films just don't interest me.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

What the hell ...?

[Ollie 1,059]

Tim Burton's Batman is a very good film.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

And for the first time (in a long time anyway ) I disagree completely with Mark Olivarez.

Man, who cares about Michael Phelps, I'm breaking records left and right here!

[David Coscina 3]

There was nothing inherently great about Burton's Batman. It was an overly slow-paced undeservedly ultra-praised movie. It fit in with the rest of the pre-BB Batman universe quite nicely in terms of quality.

For once in my life I agree completely with Neil.

I agree. I remember lining up for three hours to see that steaming pile of crap. I was reading Frank Miller's Dark knight Returns while waiting in line and remember being so disappointed that Burton chose to resurrect the '60s show comedic style rather than the grittier urban edge of the Dark Knight. If I saw Nolan's Batman Begins in 1989 I would have been blown away (aside from the score which is average at best).

Mind you, The Dark Knight is not the masterpiece everyone says it is. It's solid but has editing problems and pacing problems.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Yeah, while The Dark Knight is many notches above Batman (1989), it still suffers from pacing issues. So did Batman Begins as I recall...

For example, the car/truck chase sequence in TDK was an absolute disaster.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Give me Nolan over Burton any day.

Koray - who is starting to realize how Burton is not that great of a director.

[John Crichton 4]

I caught some of Burton's Batman on TV a few weeks ago and it just felt so...pedestrian.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He has his own unique style and vision, but just like Danny Elfman, he's not all that fantastic. The Nightmare Before Christmas is the only thing by Burton that I love, and it's not even by Burton.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Sleepy Hollow is it for me. Otherwise his movies are devoid of dramatic tension, due to their slow nature.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

For example, the car/truck chase sequence in TDK was an absolute disaster.

Nolan has no sense of rhythm (or visual staging, if that is a word). Batman vs The Garbage Bins is just...uncool.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Burton/Elfman/Keaton/Batman '89/Batman Returns > Nolan/Bale/Zimmer/Howard

[Henry B 50]

I liked the car/truck scene. The confusing staging and editing reinforced the Joker's omnipotence. The way it was shot you could tell the police were doomed.

[crocodile 8,006]

Give me Nolan over Burton any day.

Koray - who is starting to realize how Burton is not that great of a director.

His films became what he feared most: soulless and plastic. How sad. I used to like him.

His best film is, ironically, Ed Wood.

Karol

[Neimoidian 14]

I still like enough of his works not to give up on him.

[Delorean90 42]

I liked the car/truck scene. The confusing staging and editing reinforced the Joker's omnipotence. The way it was shot you could tell the police were doomed.

Yeah, I agree. It was actually one of my favorite sequences, if not my favorite--and that includes the aftermath of the chase, with Joker attacking Batman on the ground and the subsequent rescue. I don't understand what people have against it.

[crocodile 8,006]

He desperately needs a fresh approach.

Karol

[Romão 2,274]

Give me Nolan over Burton any day.

Koray - who is starting to realize how Burton is not that great of a director.

His films became what he feared most: soulless and plastic. How sad. I used to like him.

His best film is, ironically, Ed Wood.

Karol

By far.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

The chase sequence worked on a visual level. It was chaotic. On a rythmic level it failed completely. It conveyed neither chaos nor order, but rather boredom. There was nothing unexpectedly chaotic in it...it was just organized badly.

Think about the Joker himself, his appearance is chaotic, but his methods are pin-point accurately planned out, riddled with elements of surprise that bring about his desired chaos. The same cannot be said for the chase sequence.

And as for the Joker, I liked his word choice when he said he was an agent of chaos, because he is actually a man of order whose agency is chaos.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The trailers in Spanish literally kill (no pun intended) Ledger's performance.

I think i'll wait for the DVD to watch this.

[Ollie 1,059]

I thought the truck sequence was well executed, maybe too much of Batman riding on his bat-bike at times, but it was well done.

The only problem I have with Burton's Batman is the special effects. But his film wasn't the only big film that summer to have poor effects, several others also suffered from shoddy work. I thought he balanced a fine line between comic book and camp. One of the things I didn't about the films that followed was loading them with more than one villian. That's one of the reasons I wish TDK would have carried Dent over for a third film.

Elfman's music blows any other Superhero film's score out of the water with the exception of Superman and Superman IV.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Nah, Elfman's Batman is the best superhero score period.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

The confusing staging and editing reinforced the Joker's omnipotence.

It only reinforced Nolan's inability.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Nah, Elfman's Batman is the best superhero score period.

It can't even touch Superman.

[Ollie 1,059]

And I doubt any superhero score ever will.

Most regular film (non-superhero) scores don't even come close to it.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

The Batman score is just more dynamic, varied, and complex in the story it conveys.

[indy4 155]

Give me Nolan over Burton any day.

Koray - who is starting to realize how Burton is not that great of a director.

His films became what he feared most: soulless and plastic. How sad. I used to like him.

Have you seen Big Fish?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I still can't get into the BATMAN score. The main theme is great, and there are a couple of fantastic tracks 'Descent into Mystery'; 'Finale' but I get bored by the rest. And the film.

BIG FISH is a great flick. Burton has made some wonderful films, probably more than we give credit for (BEETLEJUICE, SCISSORHANDS, SLEEPY HOLLOW, BIG FISH) but he does seem very stale now (SWEENEY TODD aside, I loved that). I think the best thing he's ever been involved with was THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS.

[indy4 155]

Great: Big Fish, Sweeney Todd, Edward Scissorhands, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Corpse Bride

Good: Sleepy Hollow, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

Okay: Batman, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure

Bad: Beetlejuice, Batman Returns

[Delorean90 42]

I just flat-out don't understand how people can think the Elfman Batman score is boring overall. There are so many standout tracks. I can see "Roasted Dude," and maybe "Childhood Remembered," but even those have grown on me. But every track has something to go on. And the action is terrific--"First Confrontation," "Batman to the Rescue," "Charge of the Batmobile," "Attack of the Batwing," "Up the Cathedral," "The Final Confrontation"? Come on, this is great stuff!

The chase sequence worked on a visual level. It was chaotic. On a rythmic level it failed completely. It conveyed neither chaos nor order, but rather boredom. There was nothing unexpectedly chaotic in it...it was just organized badly.

Boredom? Yeah, right. It doesn't just work on a visual level, but an emotional level and a story/set piece level. It's loaded with great moments, from "Is that a bazooka?!" to the Tumbler jumping to take that RPG hit, to the Batpod truck takedown and the aftermath with the Joker crawling out and the last second rescue. It's just a terrific sequence.

[Morlock 11]

Burton's best are Sweeny Todd and Ed Wood. That darn Danny Elfman seems to be the ruinous factor with the rest of his films.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Ed Wood.

Gah, how did I miss that one out?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Great: Big Fish, Sweeney Todd, Edward Scissorhands, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Corpse Bride

Good: Sleepy Hollow, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

Okay: Batman, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure

Bad: Beetlejuice, Batman Returns

Beetlejuice is good, very good. I would call it my favorite Burton film, considering he didn't direct The Nightmare Before Christmas. Sweeney Todd would be my #2.

Big Fish isn't anything special, a nice story at most. I watched Edward Scissorhands recently and that isn't anything special. I don't like his Batman films. Charlie And The Chocolate Factory is an utter mess and ruins the original. Corpse Bride wasn't that great. Planet Of The Apes is even worse of a "remake" than Willy Wonka.

I haven't seen Ed Wood, but it gets a lot of good comments around here. I'll have to check it out sometime.

[Red 75]

I just flat-out don't understand how people can think the Elfman Batman score is boring overall. There are so many standout tracks. I can see "Roasted Dude," and maybe "Childhood Remembered," but even those have grown on me. But every track has something to go on. And the action is terrific--"First Confrontation," "Batman to the Rescue," "Charge of the Batmobile," "Attack of the Batwing," "Up the Cathedral," "The Final Confrontation"? Come on, this is great stuff!

Word. That is a truly awesome score.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The Batman score is just more dynamic, varied, and complex in the story it conveys.

more than John Williams Superman???

surely not?

[Delorean90 42]

Yeah, Superman is a rich classic from John Williams. It's definitely the greatest superhero score ever, but Batman is definitely a very close second.

[indy4 155]

The score to Supes kicks Batman's butt, there's no competition (IMO, of course).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Back to the film for a second, but I have to say, whatever the flaws TDK had, it succeeded in the villain department. The Joker is omnipresent, he in some way shape or form dominates in every inch of film. Not since Se7en have I seen a villain so well executed.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Yeah, Superman is a rich classic from John Williams. It's definitely the greatest superhero score ever, but Batman is definitely a very close second.

I admire the score to Batman as much as anyone, but its not repeat NOT a very close second to SUPERMAN THE MOVIE.

JFC is that some kind of bull.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

The Batman score is just more dynamic, varied, and complex in the story it conveys.

Not one single word of that is true. On the other hand, you spelled everything correctly, so kudos.

On a more serious note, I do like Elfman's Batman an awful lot. And Batman Returns, for that matter. But Superman is on the next plane up in terms of quality. The only work Elfman has done that's gotten even close to it: Edward Scissorhands and The Nightmare Before Christmas.

Elfman's Batman probably would be my pick for second-best superhero score of all time, though, so we're at least in agreement that that score is a fine one.

Back to the film for a second, but I have to say, whatever the flaws TDK had, it succeeded in the villain department. The Joker is omnipresent, he in some way shape or form dominates in every inch of film. Not since Se7en have I seen a villain so well executed.

The Joker and John Doe were probably classmates in grade-school. They do indeed have some similarities, not the least of which is that they rivet the attention of the audience.

On a more anal and pet-peeveish note, I hereby put forward a proposal that we put a permanent moratorium on the use of the title Se7en. Because that's just not a word, and nobody will ever convince me that the title of that movie is anything other than Seven. Strange rant now ceases.

[Delorean90 42]

Yeah, Superman is a rich classic from John Williams. It's definitely the greatest superhero score ever, but Batman is definitely a very close second.

I admire the score to Batman as much as anyone, but its not repeat NOT a very close second to SUPERMAN THE MOVIE.

It is as far as supehero scores go, which is what I was talking about. Batman is a classic, iconic, wonderful score. Elfman absolutely nailed the main theme, and the rest of the material is superb. What would you say would be the second greatest superhero score if not Batman?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I see where you were going and yes I'd say its the 2nd best superhero score.

But Batman is still many levels lower than Superman

[Ollie 1,059]

I used to think that until I heard Alexander Courage's Superman IV. Now Batman is 3rd.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is Robocop a Superhero score?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes and no.

He's stronger than a human but he's a cop designed to uphold the law. He works within the society (as depicted in the films) and follows the law, to an extent.

[crocodile 8,006]

Not all superheroes are vigilantes who put themselves above the law.

Karol