The OFFICIAL The Dark Knight thread

[JoeinAR 1,949]

there is one little issue I have with TDK,

I probably should have an even bigger issue with it.

I don't like the scene where the Bat bends the guys rifle barrel.

Superman can bend steel, the Bat cannot.

[Wojo 2,453]

I think I interpreted that as meaning the guy had a fake gun. I'm not sure he did, but what you mention is a pretty serious infraction upon comic book physics, I can't believe they'd have made that mistake.

Without the obvious nod to the camera, "eat your Wheaties, kids, so you can bend steel like Batman."

[Bryant Burnette 654]

No, guys . . . when Batman bends the guy's gun, you can very clearly (assuming your theatre has decent sound) hear some whirring gears. The Batsuit is doing the work on bending the gun; we're not supposed to think it's super-strength or anything like that.

That's one of my favorite touches in the movie, and I would guess that you aren't the only people who have missed it (either due to poor sound or just plain not noticing).

[Delorean90 42]

Yeah, I got the impression there was some kind of device he was using to do that. I didn't think for a second he was just doing that.

[Wojo 2,453]

Fascinating.

[Red 75]

Yeah, I got the impression there was some kind of device he was using to do that. I didn't think for a second he was just doing that.

There was a tool connected to his hand that allowed him to bend the rifle, and he also used it to cut a hole in Scarecrow's van.

[Romão 2,274]

Indeed. He used some sort of hidraulic thingy.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I guess you really do lose your hearing with old age, Joey.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I guess you really do lose your hearing with old age, Joey.

its not hearing, its a matter of intelligence. If you think Batman is a better score than Superman, they your intelligence is seriously in doubt.

besides I was 28 when Batman came out and I was 18 when Superman came out, I knew in 89 the batman score was very good but not Superman great.

[Vaderbait1 1]

I guess you really do lose your hearing with old age, Joey.

its not hearing, its a matter of intelligence. If you think Batman is a better score than Superman, they your intelligence is seriously in doubt.

besides I was 28 when Batman came out and I was 18 when Superman came out, I knew in 89 the batman score was very good but not Superman great.

Maybe the fact that you were younger when Superman came out and it was the first of its kind colors your opinion?

Not that I disagree with you, although I may be more inclined to say Superman and Batman Returns are at similar levels of awesomeness.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Nothing Elfman has composed can touch Superman: The Movie.

[indy4 155]

Edward Scissorhands and The Nightmare Before Christmas are at S:TM's level, if not above it.

Having said that, no single cue from either of those scores beats "Prelude/Main Title March."

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Nothing Elfman has composed can touch Superman: The Movie.

And lets no mention the Zimmer-Howard scores...

I was dicussing in other forums about the score of the dark knight.

One guy said that the scores of both Nolan films was excellent.

I said that they could fit the movie well, but consider them as 'excellect' was excesive. The guy responded that they can be called excellent because they fit the movie. Then they guy says the scores work well on an isolated level and Begins is his favorite score.

Then other guy tells me to hear 'harvey two face' and 'a dark knight' for me to realise how wrong i am. The previous guy says that specially 'a dark knight', labeling the track very beautiful.

I can't believe my eyes and continue saying that I cant believe that a score that is considered by many as 'noise' can be 'very beautiful' or 'excellent'. Then, that they can think what they want but its just another modern score.

Then the guy says he hears more than noise, but melodies, and tells me again to hear 'a dark knight' and if I dont consider it to be very beautiful or excellent my tastes are way off.

Then I make my review of 'A dark knight':

Do you realise that it is basically the same short melody repeated several times for 7 minutes, then it changes to another melody another seven minutes, but with the same snyth beat in the background, then a striddent note and then in the minute 13 return to the 1st motif, ending on a fade out, insetad of a grandiose finale?

You dont call noise what starts at 10:30 and ends (blends in the next part) at 11:30. Joker's 'theme' if i'm not mistaken, a strident chord sustained note for a minute. Flies and mosquitoes do that noise and it's considered very annoying

The structure of the piece basically is that of a Techno session: a background beat, a theme repeated continuously adding things or changing instruments as time progreses.

Appart from that I have already heard this countless of times in movies composed by Media Ventures-Remote Control. And only for that, the score should not be considered excellent since it is not original neither exclusive of the movie.

My tastes are based on real orchestra, real beauty and melodic complexity

And yes the movie can be really good, but it has a great flaw, the score. The film is still good, but that doesnt imply that the score has to be good too.

Bauty? Some examples from several composers:

'Out of Africa' theme by John Barry

'Ilia's theme' from Star Trek The Movie by Jerry Goldsmith

'Love theme' from Superman by John Williams

'For de love of a Princess', from Braveheart by James Horner

'El collar' from Alatriste, by Roque Baños

'Arnhem', from Medal of Honor Frontlineby Michael Giacchino

Excellent Soundtracks (only a few examples from some composers):

King Kong (1933) by Max Steiner

Ben Hur by Miklos Rozsa

Psicosis by Bernard Hermann

Empire Strikes Back, E.T., Schindler's List... by John Williams

Star Trek, Alien, 13th Warrior by Jerry Goldsmith

Lord of the Rings by Howard Shore

Willow by James Horner

Batman, Edward Scissorhands by Danny Elfman

Alatriste, Las 13 Rosas by Roque Baños

Pan's Labyrinth by Javier Navarrete

Medal of Honor, Ratatouille by Michael Giacchino

And yes even from the composers of The Dak Knight:

Dinosaur by James Newton Howard

The Lion King by Hans Zimmer

And the guy responds that whatever the structure of 'A Dark Knight' he finds it very beautiful and an excellent piece. If he likes a melody he doesnt care if its repeated for 7 minutes, and in this case the melody has many variations and changes of intensity. And in end with a fade out, with Joker's theme which is another excellent piece, and this soundtrack end like it started with Joker's theme that starts with a fade in, maybe a stroke of genius, or that is how he saw it. He likes that theme and the score in general very much and for hhim it is a masterpiece like Begins was, never two notes gave so much, like the ostinato en Vespertilio and others, the main theme of that soundtrack. And then end saying that he is a film score aficionado and he knows perfectly the ones i mentioned (and even 'lectures' me that i should have included Powell, Gegson Williams, a little of Morricone. Kamen, Debney, Doyle or Iglesias)

Regarding the 'two notes' i say that when something from batman begis has the same imcapt and popularity as the Jaws theme, that he lets me know. About joker's theme being excellent i say that if he really cannot see a single flaw in the movie, or something that is less than excellent because than theme can me many things, but not excellent, and it's not just me, it the general consensus of soundtrack aficionados.

And then the final blow:

He wasnnt speaking about popularity or impact but fitting the movie is what is important no that people gets crazy about a film score or that it is regarded as one of the most famous and renowmed of film history. At least for him, outside the movie the prefers Batman begins over Jaws, in spite of his beloved (meh) Williams.

And then finishes saying that he doesnt care about that aficionados think, he just cares about his opinion, that is both as spectator as filmmaker.

After saying that i couldnt believe that he thought that Jaws was not as fitting for its movie as Batman. I ended the dicussion. (later he said that i didnt read well, that he regards jaws as sublime but as isolated work he prefers batman. I was wrong, but he still prefer Batman over jaws, which is bewildering)

So, I know this is a williams forum, but I need the reassurance than i'm not wrong in this matter. The other forums are rather Dark Knight biased, (like everyone in the world ) and everyone by the least praises the score in the movie. Nobody really shares my opinion, neither are 'insulted' with the words 'excellent' and 'very beautiful' used to define the score.

[Delorean90 42]

That's seriously jacked up. What forum was this at?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Its on a Spanish forum dedicated to Indiana Jones.

I hope nobody enters there to make trouble , i would be 'embarrased', and there are some nice people there hehe.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Give the link, so me and Babelfish can can visit?

[Delorean90 42]

So I just bought "Harvey Two-Face" on iTunes, and I really love that last section, especially the statement of the Love Theme/Family Theme, and that string phrase and brass fanfare from 5:27. It makes me wonder--why not put that kind of oomph, that kind of musicality, and that kind of stuff that you can actually sink your teeth into, into the rest of the score? It wasn't used in the film, and I wonder if it was intended for the film (and if so, what part), or if it was specifically for the album.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

can can visit?

So I just bought "Harvey Two-Face" on iTunes, and I really love that last section, especially the statement of the Love Theme/Family Theme, and that string phrase and brass fanfare from 5:27. It makes me wonder--why not put that kind of oomph, that kind of musicality, and that kind of stuff that you can actually sink your teeth into, into the rest of the score? It wasn't used in the film, and I wonder if it was intended for the film (and if so, what part), or if it was specifically for the album.

I found that cue to be a little zimmerian for Howard.

[Delorean90 42]

Really? Maybe somewhat in the sound design department, but particularly the segment I mentioned is clearly Howard stuff.

I just now listened to "Like a Dog Chasing Cars," "Introduce a Little Anarchy," and "Watch the World Burn." I'd have to say that at least in certain ways, I'm hearing improvement from Begins. The orchestral elements are more prominent, even when working with electronic elements. I like the Elfman-esque string rhythm from the first two tracks (I say Elfman-esque only because it's somewhat reminiscent of "Descent Into Mystery"), and it just seems like there's more going into it to some degree. I think it gets a little worse when it goes into the music from the climax of Begins (when he jumps off the roof), going back into that rigid feeling that just doesn't seem right to me. It's weirdly enjoyable in its own way, but still feels less than it could be. "Watch the World Burn" is definitely a highlight. It worked excellently in the film, and hearing it on its own makes me appreciate it even more. The steady figure in the low ends gives that sense of tragic doom that sounds less like it's trying to be "fresh" or "realistic" and simply works with the story and the characters and the big picture elements. If the rest of the scores were handled more like that, "Harvey Two-Face," and the better elements of the action cues I mentioned above, I think I would find them quite a bit less disappointing. I don't think that Zimmer and Howard's thought process is inherently wrong, and I actually think they've got good material to work with; it's simply the execution that I find lacking.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I mean that Howard may have try to blend with the Zimmer sound, not that it was a zimmer cue. I was told it was by Howard so I have to believe it.

[crocodile 8,012]

It is the same discussion as with Requiem for a Dream, I think. I gave up these subjects long time ago.

Karol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I like all the compliments Watch the World Burn gets.

It's quintessentially Gladiator, repackaged for Batman.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That good?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

No the Commodus version works better.

[crocodile 8,012]

It's better written, more layered.

Karol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Best scene in the movie: The two ships not blowing each other up.

Given the dark tone of the movie, and the lead-up to the climax of that thread of the plot, that little glimmer of light, was one of the most resounding messages of the film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree,

I like they way it proves The Joker wrong.

[crocodile 8,012]

And yet I've seen a surprisingly great number of people claiming this sequence ruined the movie for them. Because of it being a typical Hollywood cliche. What would be the point of having these ships explode at this point of the film, I ask? Does everything that people call "mature" must be bloody, grim and dark? The film doesn't have a happy ending anyway, so I don't quite understand the uproar about it being "too Hollywood".

Karol - for whom the best villain of the year would be Daniel Plainview

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

A great number of people are idiots.

The only thing that comes close to being cliche is the purported bad guy big black dude being the one that throws the control out the window, doing the right thing. But even that is handled in a refreshing manner.

Sometimes in this day and age I think people take an unrealistically grim a view of humanity. They're usually being tanned by their monitors, watching local news about who killed who, unable to witness the everyday kindness that goes on.

And going back to what Steef said, the reaction on the Joker's face at midnight is priceless. If it is a cliche, then it works beautifully in the greater tapestry of the film.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well I'm one who felt the scene was un-neccessary and felt tacked on to a film that should have already ended, but since that's one of the 2or 3 problems I have to an otherwise fantastic film I can live with it.

I recently had the chance to hear the entire soundtrack to TDK and at first I thought someone was playing a joke on me by looping the music. A very repetative and boring score on it's own.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I recently had the chance to hear the entire soundtrack to TDK and at first I thought someone was playing a joke on me by looping the music. A very repetative and boring score on it's own.

My most sincere condolences

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'm curious where you think the movie should have ended, Mark? For me it was following the Joker's apprehension, following the boat scenes.

[Ollie 1,059]

I've already stated that the film feels like it comes to an end after the Joker is captured and escapes. Harvey Dent should have been carried over to a 3rd film.

If you want to include the boat sequence then Dent's confrontation with Gordon should have been dropped. His turn felt too rushed.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Yeah, it did feel rushed.

[Vaderbait1 1]

Yeah, it did feel rushed.

I don't think so. THere was nothing else for him to do at that point. His turn has always been a shock, not a gradual decline like Anakin. I think he'll be back to finish his story in the 3rd movie.

If you meant his story was rushed, I agree, but it doesn't bother me because I'm sure he'll be back in the third. But his turn wasn't rushed at all. He sought revenge, and it's most logical to assume that uncontrollable rage and desire for revenge would come soon after the tragic loss, not later on in life.

I don't see why people complain about this. It's not like it's a false ending like LOTR, and it only goes a few minutes past the Joker's apprehension. It's not any different from other movies in this regard. One villain dies/captured and then the other meets his fate.

I'd also like to add that most of the critiques of the film are ridiculous. I've read countless posts elsewhere about "plot holes" that weren't plot holes. So many of the complaints could be resolved by just paying attention to the movie. Or complaints like "We didn't see the Joker leave the party!" We also don't see Batman go to the bathroom. Perhaps we should also include a full eight hours of watching a character sleep in the next one? You know, just so we don't have to assume something simple like someone walked out of a room after throwing a person out a window. Some people...

[Ollie 1,059]

Well he's dead so an appearance in a third film is kinda out of the question.

His character was just as strong as the Joker's. He deserved his own film to play out his storyline.

[crocodile 8,012]

But... that was almost entirely his storyline. It was the backbone of the film, as Nolan would put it. Joker has none, he's a shark from Jaws. harvey Dent was the most important character from this film, story-wise.

Karol

[Vaderbait1 1]

Well he's dead so an appearance in a third film is kinda out of the question.

His character was just as strong as the Joker's. He deserved his own film to play out his storyline.

Are you familiar with Nolan's movies? He is very deliberate in dialogue and what he shows (or doesn't show).

Several points in the movie indicate a 3 story fall won't kill you. In fact, it's made glaringly obvious. Then what happens? He falls off a 3 story ledge. He MIGHT be dead, but judging from all the foreshadowing which is frequent in Nolan films there's probably a better chance that he survived.

Couple that with the fact that Gordon lied about Dent dying already once by the end of the movie and you have yourself a solid theory and argument for the return of Two-Face.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Coupled by the fact that we did not see him actually die on screen.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Yeah, I thought the whole "this fall won't kill me" bit earlier in the movie was clear evidence that Harvey was not dead.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well he's dead so an appearance in a third film is kinda out of the question.

His character was just as strong as the Joker's. He deserved his own film to play out his storyline.

Are you familiar with Nolan's movies? He is very deliberate in dialogue and what he shows (or doesn't show).

Several points in the movie indicate a 3 story fall won't kill you. In fact, it's made glaringly obvious. Then what happens? He falls off a 3 story ledge. He MIGHT be dead, but judging from all the foreshadowing which is frequent in Nolan films there's probably a better chance that he survived.

Couple that with the fact that Gordon lied about Dent dying already once by the end of the movie and you have yourself a solid theory and argument for the return of Two-Face.

Well he's lying there, not breathing.

The old, let's pretend we kill a character off and bring him back is cliched enough and hard to pull off. Doing it twice in one film is rather lame.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They would be doing it in the next film.

But Mark, think about it. If you kill your villian in a movie, why would you not show him really dying?

At the very least Nolan must have intended it to be ambivalent.

[Ollie 1,059]

I wouldn't show the body lying there. And I wouldn't do it if I'd already done it earlier in th film with a different character.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lying there....unconscious?

[crocodile 8,012]

No matter what they do with Two-Face in the comic books, he's always going back to the same point. They healed him repeatedly, like in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, in Hush and a few more. Harvey Dent won't be back, just as Gwen Stacy and Bucky (from Captain America). His story won't go anywhere. It's condensed and rushed in TDK, maybe that's true, but that's it. This is as far as you can go with Two-Face in a Batman universe according to Nolan. And I'm completely fine with this.

Karol

[Red 75]

Although I love the character, Two-Face's entire arc was condensed in such an effective way that I'm content with him dying in the film and not being in the next movie (even though I do think he could have his own movie). Plus it led up to one incredible ending (IMO).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Two-Face's story was resolved within the film, and he had a pretty good finish, but I really don't believe he's dead. Batman's impossible survival rescuing Rachel and the fact that he survived the same fall as Two-Face kinda proves this.

"At this height, the fall won't kill me."

"I'm counting on it."

Batman doesn't kill people, Two-Face dying would mean Batman killed him.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Batman doesn't kill people, Two-Face dying would mean Batman killed him.

That's the only argument I've seen that makes me think Two-Face might come back.

On the other hand, if Dent is still alive, then it invalidates the decision made by Batman in the final moments of the movie. The whole movie is building toward Batman having to take the hatred of the public upon himself, so that Gotham can still believe that a Harvey Dent -- a pure, white knight -- can happen. If Dent is still alive, then all of a sudden the entire movie is meaningless from a thematic point of view.

Do you guys really think Christopher Nolan is stupid enough to commit that kind of a blunder?

[Vaderbait1 1]

Batman doesn't kill people, Two-Face dying would mean Batman killed him.

That's the only argument I've seen that makes me think Two-Face might come back.

On the other hand, if Dent is still alive, then it invalidates the decision made by Batman in the final moments of the movie. The whole movie is building toward Batman having to take the hatred of the public upon himself, so that Gotham can still believe that a Harvey Dent -- a pure, white knight -- can happen. If Dent is still alive, then all of a sudden the entire movie is meaningless from a thematic point of view.

Do you guys really think Christopher Nolan is stupid enough to commit that kind of a blunder?

Harvey Dent is dead. Whether or not Two-Face is alive, Batman would still have had to make that sacrifice to save Dent's image. His sacrifice has nothing to do with whether or not Two_Face comes back. He made his decision to protect the image of Harvey Dent, who did die. Two-Face is all that is left. Alive or dead, he must be kept a secret (bring in Gordon already having lied about Dent's supposed demise after the hospital explosion).

So no, having Two-Face survive invalidates nothing really.

I wouldn't show the body lying there. And I wouldn't do it if I'd already done it earlier in th film with a different character.

Then you would be cliched. Doing it twice would be unexpected and fresh.

[indy4 155]

I wouldn't show the body lying there. And I wouldn't do it if I'd already done it earlier in th film with a different character.

Then you would be cliched. Doing it twice would be unexpected and fresh.

So maybe the thing that was missing from Return of the Jedi was Palpatine's confession that he is Vader's father right before he is thrown down the shaft.

Maybe The Sixth Sense would have been a better film if we found out at the VERY end that Malcolm's wife was dead also.

Maybe The Sorcerer's Stone would have been better if we found out that underneath Harry's wig he was hiding Dumbledore's head.

^_^

I agree with Mark on this one.