The OFFICIAL The Dark Knight thread

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Hooray to that!

I bet it's a D naturel.

[Delorean90 42]

Joker's theme is only 1 note.

Last I heard I thought he had two notes he was working with--and I was understanding he was just working to figure out where to go from that interval.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Quote: "Actually, it's down to one note now."

Apparently, two notes were too hard to handle for The Hans ...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

He does sort of make it easy for people to make fun of him, doesn't he?

- Marc, slightly curious about The Dark Knight, really.

[Romão 2,274]

When I read that an 8 minute Joker suite sounds like orchestral Nine Inch Nails, I can't help but be a little worried.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Quote: "Actually, it's down to one note now."

Apparently, two notes were too hard to handle for The Hans ...

You try making a 1 note theme. That's probably the most difficult thing a composer can do. And hey, if JNH was blown away and got jealous like he said, it must be good.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

It's a NOTE, man!

Most difficult thing for a composer to do my ass!

There's still a line that divides the effectiveness of little from the boringness of virtually nothing.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Exactly, it's just a note! Close Encounters must have been such a breeze for John Williams, I mean, it's only 5 notes.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

5 notes is a short motif, one note is nothing, it's a note - you can pick any.

[Morlock 11]

1 note is nothing. If it is experimental, it sounds like another one of Zimmer's interesting-sounding concepts that does not work in practice. And John Williams has said that finding the five notes was hardly a serious, artistically inclined venture on his part. He took Spielberg's instruction, came up with as many combinations as he could, and Spielberg picked one he liked. Not nearly as pretentious-sounding as you're making Zimmer's composition to be.

Morlock- a fan of Zimmer who's a bit irritated at having to add to the Zimmer bashing due to rather dubious porclamations made on Zimmer's behaf by his uber-supporters

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Joker's theme is only 1 note.

I can't wait to learn the sheet music off by heart.

[Red 75]

I was just getting used to the idea of a two note Joker theme. I can't understand how anyone in their right mind could call a one note theme complex in any way. It sounds very lazy on Zimmer's part, actually. Anyone can take a single note and use it thematically, let alone a professional composer. And I liked the score to Batman Begins.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Lazy? Took him 3 months to narrow it down to 1 note. And for all of you that are already saying it's terrible without hearing it, take JNH's advice. Actually listen to an interview, and you would know he was blown away and was jealous of Zimmer.

And who's calling it complex? Zimmer has always been a simplistic composer, all his scores are simple themes and melodies.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

He took Spielberg's instruction, came up with as many combinations as he could, and Spielberg picked one he liked. Not nearly as pretentious-sounding as you're making Zimmer's composition to be.

Strictly, a one note theme isn't even a composition.

I merely pointed out that one note is neither theme nor a motif.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

So 2 notes is the minimum for something to be called a theme or motif?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Three months to narrow it down to one note? Well, there are traditionally just 12 notes in Western music...what did Zimmer do, sit down with a piano (excuse me, keyboard) and a copy of the film, and then play every note one by one against the Joker scenes?

"Let's start with C...hmm, nope. How about C-sharp....not quite..."

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The same can be said with John Williams for Jaws, except it's 2 notes.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The same can be said with John Williams for Jaws, except it's 2 notes.

thats one segment of the Jaws theme actually.

[Morlock 11]

And that is a rather grand statement to make before we've heard the score or seen the film. Two notes can be brilliant, can be acceptable, and can be very, very, stupid. It remains to be seen. Rather ridicules to praise it from the get go.

Oh, and unless one avoids the one note for the other two hours of score, it becomes a meaningless musical gesture. I think it's fair to say that there needs to be a 2-note minimum for something to be a motif. And I think one would be hard pressed to make something very musical out of that (The Shark motif is not especially musical).

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

So 2 notes is the minimum for something to be called a theme or motif?

Two notes is the minimum for being called *anything*.

The same can be said with John Williams for Jaws, except it's 2 notes.

First of all, the marriage between imagery, emotion and descriptive writing in the Jaws motif is a once in a lifetime achievement, much like the shrieking strings from Psycho.

Secondly, Zimmer is not nearly the composer Williams is to make such an idea resonate nearly as much.

Thirdly, no, nobody's heard the album yet, but seeing how Zimmer calls his rubbish two-note motif from Batman Begins "iconic", one is inclined to fear the worst.

[Delorean90 42]

I thought they were trying to avoid iconic or heroic in the first one...?

And I am finding this extremely hard to believe. One note? That's ludicrous. There's got to be more to this than meets the eye. Even a single CHORD would be easier to take, given that you can do inversions, orchestrational things with it, etc. But one note? Fatty's right. That's nothing. And as Morlock said, it's meaningless unless you avoid that note for anything not related to the Joker. And if Howard is truly impressed and jealous of this, then there just has to be more to it than just one note. I remain skeptical, at least until I hear this interview myself.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

To be honest, the decrescending/crescending gesture from Matrix became quite famous, but that's an entirely different affair.

[Delorean90 42]

No doubt--I love that little "Matrix motif." And there are times when I even like the Begins two-note motif, with its statement as Bruce runs to the ship at the dock after talking with Falcone being probably my favorite.

What I meant, though, is that I thought they were trying to avoid all of that stuff for the first film. Maybe I just mistook it, and they meant just heroic/exciting music.

[Red 75]

And who's calling it complex? Zimmer has always been a simplistic composer, all his scores are simple themes and melodies.

I don't think so. He did pioneer the MV (or RC) "wall of sound" technique, after all.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

And how does that contradict the statement of him being a simplistic composer?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It doesn't. All his scores are simple, pretty much all of them are waltzes.

[QMM 4]

pretty much all of them are waltzes.

what

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Actually listen to an interview, and you would know he was blown away and was jealous of Zimmer.

He's just being a good PR man by sticking up for his friend.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

pretty much all of them are waltzes.

Are you sure you're in the right forum? You know, on the right planet?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

O.K. mmmkay tards, are you on the right planet? I've never had to say this to anyone, but this is necessary. If you honestly believe Hans' scores aren't constructed as waltzes, you are physically, mentally, physiologically: retarded.

[Red 75]

You wouldn't mind explaining why, would you? In any case, that comment was out of line.

When I hear "Up is Down" or "Molossus" I don't think simplistic. Maybe it's just me (being mentally handicapped).

[indy4 155]

I have an idea--let's talk about this one note thing after we've heard the score. While it is strange, it is more than possible. The note is not the only thing that goes into a musical composition--there's dynamic, rythmn, artuculation, and I think that a one note theme could be pulled off. Yes, it is strange and rather unheard of, but I see no reason to mark it off as good or bad right off the bat.

And it has increased my curiosity about this score.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

O.K. mmmkay tards, are you on the right planet? I've never had to say this to anyone, but this is necessary. If you honestly believe Hans' scores aren't constructed as waltzes, you are physically, mentally, physiologically: retarded.

No, really, you give me the impression of being hopelessly deaf.

And anyway, are you trying to make Zimmer's opus more bland than it already is?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

When I hear "Up is Down" or "Molossus" I don't think simplistic. Maybe it's just me (being mentally handicapped).

It is.

Seriously? Both are extremely simple. Batman? Dun Dun Dun Dun DUN Dun Dun Dun DUN Dun Dun Dun.

Pirates? Da na na nuh nuh nuh na.

My comment may have been out of line, but it was necessary. Most, I never said all, most of Hans' scores are waltzes. He's stated it in his interviews, and its right there in the music!! The Gladiator Waltz, right there! Matchstick Men, all of it is a waltz. All of the Pirates scores, The Paper House, House Of The Spirits, King Arthur, Crimson Tide, The Road To El Dorado, Muppet Treasure Island, Pearl Harbor. All are structured and contain waltzes. Even The Rock and Peacemaker are waltzes!

[Delorean90 42]

Isn't a waltz in three-four time? I don't think those whole scores are three-four time, dude.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm not talking about the entire scores. More the specific action cues and main pieces are waltzes. Another example: The Arsonist's Waltz from Backdraft. The Banker's Waltz from Matchstick Men.

The Pirates scores are entirely waltzes though. The main theme, Jack's theme, most definitely waltzes.

[Delorean90 42]

Well, that's not what your post indicated...

The Gladiator Waltz, right there! Matchstick Men, all of it is a waltz. All of the Pirates scores, The Paper House, House Of The Spirits, King Arthur, Crimson Tide, The Road To El Dorado, Muppet Treasure Island, Pearl Harbor. All are structured and contain waltzes. Even The Rock and Peacemaker are waltzes!

...but nevertheless, while I won't swear that I have a proper definition off the top of my head, I highly doubt that all of those action cues are waltzes. Anyone with a music dictionary want to help clarify this? How do you define a waltz, Koray?

[Red 75]

Zimmer's themes may be simplistic (or even waltzes), but that doesn't make his cues or entire scores simplistic. The two-note Jaws theme is simple, but the soundtrack as a whole isn't.

[John Crichton 4]

The two-note Jaws theme is simple, but the soundtrack as a whole isn't.

You couldn't be more right my friend. In fact that's true just for the main shark theme, much less the whole score.

[QMM 4]

This thread

facepalm

[Vaderbait1 1]

Seeing people try to defend a single note as a "theme" is ridiculous. It's a note. By definition. There's not much you can do with that.

There was only a short bit of music that was decent in Batman Begins, I'm not sure if that's the "Batman Theme" or whatever, but if htey develop that, cool. But they seem to be taking one HUGE step backwards.

Which I predicted a long time ago. Since I never say anything like this, let me just say: I told you they were blowing smoke up our skirts when they said it would develop further on the old themes and be a "real" score.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Maybe it's one note played in 7 different octaves.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I told you they were blowing smoke up our skirts when they said it would develop further on the old themes and be a "real" score.

Joker's theme was always going to be a few notes. They lived up to their promises. Expect a fully-developed and awesome BATMAN theme. Hell, if the score is getting a standard release, a special edition release, a double LP release, and a deluxe edition release: It must be f-ing good.

Probably will be the best score of the year, definitely better than Indy, which is not that hard to top.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Probably will be the best score of the year, definitely better than Indy, which is not that hard to top.

And you call me an idiot??

[indy4 155]

Most of the BB score is uninteresting to me, I don't see how it could top something as brilliant as Indy.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Probably will be the best score of the year, definitely better than Indy, which is not that hard to top.

And you call me an idiot??

Yes.

Indy 4 is a rehash of old themes mixed with a couple new decent ones. It is definitely not brilliant. The Happening is even a better score.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Most of the BB score is uninteresting to me, I don't see how it could top something as brilliant as Indy.

Probably will be the best score of the year, definitely better than Indy, which is not that hard to top.

And you call me an idiot??

Yes.

Indy 4 is a rehash of old themes mixed with a couple new decent ones. It is definitely not brilliant. The Happening is even a better score.

Between you pair, I now know which one is dimmer.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Between you pair, I now know which one is dimmer.

Good for you. You learned something today!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

A skill that is out of the Kora's reach.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

OHOOHOHOHHOHOHOHOH