Ollie 1,059 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 That's not quite what I meant, but I'll make it simple.Menken can write good/great songs but Goldsmith is far superior composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Menken is just a tunesmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I want reasons. I have given you plenty of reasons why Menken's scoring is superior. I am not talking about the songs at all. Obviously, we cannot compare them. I am talking about the scoring. Tell me WHY Goldsmith is better (or why Menken's scoring is junk). I found Mulan to be much less original than Beauty and the Beast. I know you all think it is a recycled sound, but it is Menken's sound, no matter how many people copy it, and it is a brilliant sound (when coming from its master). Mulan did in no way originate any of its style. Beauty and the Beast really started something. I know The Little Mermaid came first, but that was a little more experimental, and Beauty and the Beast was the result of that experimenting. And I am talking about the scoring.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh12 0 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I think Alan Menken's work for Disney has been absolutely fantastic and deserving of his Oscar wins. Plus, even he wishes he could score films like Goldsmith and Williams: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKhtZ7F13UQ- A user who'd listen to Hunchback's "Out There" when stuck in the library for months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I have no idea how you could come up with idea that I'm calling Goldsmith's music generic. If you want generic Disney music listen to Hans Zimmer's Lion King because it has music that was typical of MV.You totally missed the point.As I said take away the songs from those Disney films and you have very little substance left as far as underscore goes. Goldsmith wrote a powerful score that does not really on songs to carry it. An animated movie does not have to have "child Like" music nor does it need an film score that sounds like it was composed just for a cartoon. My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film. At the end of The Little Mermaid the music for the ship ramming Ursula is weak and anti-climatic. I felt no energy coming from the music, it was just there serving no purpose. The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music. Now take the scene in Mulan were the Huns are charging down the hill, Goldsmith's music is perfect for that scene. The scene of hundreds of Huns charging backed by Goldsmith powerful score gives the scene energy that was lacking from Menken's score.There are many animated films that don't rely on cartoonish scores or songs and succeed very well. Secret of Nimh, Land Before Time, The Incredibles, Treasure Planet, Heavy Metal and Ratatouille come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 All of them superiour to the limp, syrupy and obvious music composed my Mr. Menken.He always sounded to me like he would be big on Broadway, but he just doesn't cut it for the movies.Outside Disney, Menken's resume for film music is pretty darn poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I have no idea how you could come up with idea that I'm calling Goldsmith's music generic. If you want generic Disney music listen to Hans Zimmer's Lion King because it has music that was typical of MV.You totally missed the point.As I said take away the songs from those Disney films and you have very little substance left as far as underscore goes. Goldsmith wrote a powerful score that does not really on songs to carry it. An animated movie does not have to have "child Like" music nor does it need an film score that sounds like it was composed just for a cartoon. My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film. At the end of The Little Mermaid the music for the ship ramming Ursula is weak and anti-climatic. I felt no energy coming from the music, it was just there serving no purpose. The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music. Now take the scene in Mulan were the Huns are charging down the hill, Goldsmith's music is perfect for that scene. The scene of hundreds of Huns charging backed by Goldsmith powerful score gives the scene energy that was lacking from Menken's score.There are many animated films that don't rely on cartoonish scores or songs and succeed very well. Secret of Nimh, Land Before Time, The Incredibles, Treasure Planet, Heavy Metal and Ratatouille come to mind.I consider Ratatuille to be cartoon-ish. But never mind. I know you would never say the Mulan's music was generic, but what you did say was "Mulan sounds like a very good music and whatever genre it was composed for shouldn't matter". I know you didn't mean generic, because that is a soap word. It just sounded that way to me. But I think both of you are dismissing for too quickly the power in 'children's' (for lack of a better term) music. I understand totally what you are saying about The Little Mermaid. But I have not been defending that one, as I think it is one of Menken's weaker efforts and far below Beauty and the Beast.I just don't quite understand how the phrase "My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film" could be considered anything but generic. Does this mean that there is no need for style? All the types of film you are refering to require dramatically different styles of music, and one would not usually fit the other. OK, maybe I see where you are coming from, in that animated music doesn't need to sound animated to work. I just love the fantasy sound. But what I want you to understand is that the Menken style is just as valid as the Goldsmith style. They are different, and both well done. Mulan, however, sounds to my ears as a normal smattering of oriental, child-ish, and intense music. It is an entertaining listen, for sure. But it lacks the spark that one can find in Beauty and the Beast. In Menken's scoring we find really what I consider to be the origination of the Disney 'magic', if you will. Perhaps the only incarnation of that magic that ever came out of the Disney studios.Certianly you will enjoy Mulan's music more than Beauty and the Beast's if you don't appreciate good fantasy music. I would say Mulan is an absolutely fine example of a type of writing which was there long before Mulan. But Beauty and the Beast began a whole new phase in the fantasy genre, and Menken is still being copied for what he wrote then. And yes, I am talking about the score. The fact is, it makes people believe in a utopian-type fantasy world, and it works undeniably well. But you would of course say that you have no interest in utopian music, as it lacks conflict, thus lacking any depth, in which case you would be very correct. This is why Menken's danger music is so effective. It puts in danger the perfectness of what he has created, thus causing the listener to feel the anxiety of the characters in the movie. Sure, I can listen to the Huns attacking music, and say 'good job, Goldsmith'. But I can listen to 'Battle on the Tower' and feel the emotion of the characters.Which brings me to another point. "The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music.". The music is the ONLY reason that this scene is dramatic. Otherwise it would be your normal everyday fight with the bad guy, think you beat the bad guy, happy to have won, stabbed in the back, all hope is lost, bad guy falls hundreds of feet to his death scene. The music first brings excitement to the fighting in some fine intense and emotional scoring, but then comes back to the beginning theme which represents the spell on the Beast and that time is running short to break it. This is played as the Beast begins to climb to Belle, thinking Gaston is gone. From there the music changes to what is used as a sort of a love theme for the Beast and Belle, and builds to an amazing climax of wonderfulness just in time to be hurled back into the dissonence and harshness of Menken's brass scoring as Gaston stabs the Beast in the back. The percussion comes back in for a few measures, driving home the point just before Gaston is hurled from the Beast's back to the depths below, with the appropriate music to go with his fall. How in the world could you listen to this masterpiece and call it 'weak' music?In the interest of fairness, I have been giving Mulan a good listen. I think you should consider spending 3:05 minutes of your time listening to the end of Battle on the Tower, from 2:23 to the end. Listen to it with the realization that this is unashamadly fantasy writing, and must be judged as such.Enjoy!Colin ThomsonI think Alan Menken's work for Disney has been absolutely fantastic and deserving of his Oscar wins. Plus, even he wishes he could score films like Goldsmith and Williams: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKhtZ7F13UQ- A user who'd listen to Hunchback's "Out There" when stuck in the library for months. Nice clip. I would love for Menken to have a chance to do some scoring outside of the little niche to which he has been confined. Sounds like he would too. We can always hope.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I've heard enough of Menken's music to form my own opinion, and that's that his underscore lacks the emotion and power without the songs. I'll also repeat that I have two kids who grew up during Menken's height of scoring Disney tunes so I am very, and I mean very, familiar with his music. We had all the CDs and as a film score fan I gave them all a listen and walked away with my current opinion.Menken writes wonderful songs but without them his scores wouldn't be anywhere near the same quality.I seriously doubt if he was given a film like Star Wars or Planet of the Apes he would be able to come close to capturing the same quality music that was composed for them.I'm not telling you not to like him, I'm just telling you why I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 OK, that's cool. I just can't help but go to extreme measures when defending Menken. You go right ahead and keep on enjoying Mulan. Very nice score, that.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 OK, that's cool. I just can't help but go to extreme measures when defending Menken. You go right ahead and keep on enjoying Mulan. Very nice score, that.Colin ThomsonI'm with you totally on Menken being the s--t, but I've got to ask after scanning the posts on this page:Have you seen Mulan, or just dowloaded and listened to the music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I've heard enough of Menken's music to form my own opinion, and that's that his underscore lacks the emotion and power without the songs. I'll also repeat that I have two kids who grew up during Menken's height of scoring Disney tunes so I am very, and I mean very, familiar with his music. We had all the CDs and as a film score fan I gave them all a listen and walked away with my current opinion.Menken writes wonderful songs but without them his scores wouldn't be anywhere near the same quality.I kind of agree, unless we are talking about Pocahontas and Hunchback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 It saw Mulan once a few years ago, but I don't really remember any of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I kind of agree, unless we are talking about Pocahontas and Hunchback.Those films signaled the downward spiral of Disney animation films. After the Lion King Disney could never re-capture that magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 With a few caveats, I think both Pocahontas and The Hunchback of Notre Dame are terrific movies, but you're absolutely right that they were responsible for Disney's downward spiral. People did not then, and do not now, want self-important history lessons from Walt Disney animation. Give Disney credit for trying to not stagnate, but they probably ought to have found more accessible topics. The crap-fest that was Hercules didn't help matters any (although it sort of anticipated the irreverance that made Shrek so popular), so by the time Mulan rolled around, people couldn't care less about going to see Disney animation. Which is a shame, because Mulan was one of their best of the decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 If only they were still making traditionally animated films. Leave the CG to Pixar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal_Ozzel 36 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 They're going back to it now.http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780521/No Menken this time, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think that is smart. I don't know if that movie will be worth anything, but I do agree that they should leave CG to Pixar.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Yes, I heard about that. It's a step in the right direction I think, but I don't think it will reach what Mulan or Lion King were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The quality of his song writing is undeniable. BUt I find his underscore efforts in Pocahontas and specially Hunchback to be particularly fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 With a few caveats, I think both Pocahontas and The Hunchback of Notre Dame are terrific movies, but you're absolutely right that they were responsible for Disney's downward spiral. People did not then, and do not now, want self-important history lessons from Walt Disney animation. Give Disney credit for trying to not stagnate, but they probably ought to have found more accessible topics. The crap-fest that was Hercules didn't help matters any (although it sort of anticipated the irreverance that made Shrek so popular), so by the time Mulan rolled around, people couldn't care less about going to see Disney animation. Which is a shame, because Mulan was one of their best of the decade.As bad as Hercules was I will admit James Woods as Hades was hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Definitely. Probably the only really good thing to come out of that movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hercules is the Menken movie I will never try to defend. I just don't quite understand how something like that happened. Very sad.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 I haven't seen Hercules in years, but I remember it being fairly competent and enjoyable. Do we all at JWFan hate it because it's a poorly made film or because we disagree with its tone? Do we all just not like gospel music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 It could be that we all just don't like black gospel music. Or it could be that that genre of music in general is not on the same level musically with some others. It could be that it is boring and repetative. Perhaps it is a good example of that sort of music, probably done better than most. But still not good.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I have nothing against gospel music, but what Menken did with Hercules was just bad. Which in a weird way was appropriate for the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Regarding Hercules, the music is actually the only element of the movie that I can tolerate. I don't love any of it (though both "I Won't Say I'm In Love" and "Go the Distance" tempt me), but I don't hate any of it, either.As for the movie, it a case of me feeling as if the people who made thought it was the wittiest, sharpest thing ever put on film, and yet I found that 99 out of every 100 jokes fell flat. To me, it was like being told a joke by someone who absolutely CANNOT tell a joke, but is somehow convinced that he is the best teller of jokes ever to draw breath. In other words, not only wasn't it funny, it was also smarmily convinced that it was. Like the Shrek movies, in other words. I just can't abide the damned thing.However, humor is entirely subjective, so I've got no trouble believeing that plenty of people love Hercules. I'm just not one of them.Still not the all-time worst Disney animated feature, though. That will probably always be The Sword in the Stone, which is just lamentable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgaFlippinMan 7 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I Won't Say and Go the Distance are great songs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The lyrics of "From Zero to Hero" are also great.I find Hercules quite funny now, after working for two months on a book about greek mythology. Obviously, Disney tried to hide the darker aspects of the hero and mythology overall, but whenever they hint at them (they didn't really removed them from the character), the way of sugar-coating it is quite funny. And everything is just easier to swallow if you just know that Hera (his divine mom in the movie) is going to make him go insane and kill Megara with his own bare hands pretty soon after the end credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I saw it once or twice but it didn't leave a lasting impression on me, Wood's character was the only thing I really remember as enjoying.Didn't Menken win or was nominated for an Oscar for one of the songs from Hercules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Go the Distance was nominated for an Oscar, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Nominated for the Michael Bolton song. Woods is definitely the best thing in that movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 In other words, not only wasn't it funny, it was also smarmily convinced that it was. Like the Shrek movies, in other words. I just can't abide the damned thing.The first Shrek film was great. The second was okay, bordering bad. And I haven't seen the third yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Don't bother with the 3rd Shrek.Completely worthless and un-neccessary film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 What was the third Shrek about? I don't remember honestly. All I recall is seeing a bunch of little Shreks...and then the end credits...oh and the Frog King dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The funeral with "Ye Olde Foot Locker" box was the only moment that made me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I would even say not to bother with any Shrek movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Who narrates "Prologue" from Beauty and the Beast? I have been looking and can't find it. And if you could show a reliable source for that info too, that would be great. Thanks.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 David Ogden Stiers (also Cogsworth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Wow. That is...Impressive.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 David Ogden Stiers (also Cogsworth).Otherwise known and the man most likely to play John Williams in a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 You know, when I first saw whoever the white bearded guy in Jurrasic Park is, I thought maybe Williams had made a cameo appearance.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal_Ozzel 36 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 We usually consider him (Richard Attenborough) the second most likely to play John Williams in a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyprod 86 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 hey, what you guys think about Enchanted ?????the whole thread is about alan menken and nobody speak about it ? and my favorite song is Go the distance. and my favorite pop song : Go the distance version by Mr Bolton . (but i'm a afanasieff Freak, so i'm not that much objective). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 hey, what you guys think about Enchanted ?????the whole thread is about alan menken and nobody speak about it ? and my favorite song is Go the distance. and my favorite pop song : Go the distance version by Mr Bolton . (but i'm a afanasieff Freak, so i'm not that much objective).I liked Enchanted. It's a bit short of being a masterpiece, but it gets close: Amy Adams deserved an Oscar nomination, she was brilliant. Patrick Dempsey, not so much; he's a complete stiff, and I do not for one second believe the romance between his character and Giselle (although, to be fair, this is more the fault of the screenplay than it is of Dempsey). James Marsden, like Adams, is close to perfect; between Enchanted and Hairspray, he had a great year.I liked all of the songs, but I think "That's How You Know" was probably my favorite. I think they mostly stand up very well in relation to Menken's other Disney work.Which reminds me: I need to buy the Enchanted soundtrack, as well as the Broadway version of The Little Mermaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyprod 86 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 hey, what you guys think about Enchanted ?????the whole thread is about alan menken and nobody speak about it ? and my favorite song is Go the distance. and my favorite pop song : Go the distance version by Mr Bolton . (but i'm a afanasieff Freak, so i'm not that much objective).I liked Enchanted. It's a bit short of being a masterpiece, but it gets close: Amy Adams deserved an Oscar nomination, she was brilliant. Patrick Dempsey, not so much; he's a complete stiff, and I do not for one second believe the romance between his character and Giselle (although, to be fair, this is more the fault of the screenplay than it is of Dempsey). James Marsden, like Adams, is close to perfect; between Enchanted and Hairspray, he had a great year.I liked all of the songs, but I think "That's How You Know" was probably my favorite. I think they mostly stand up very well in relation to Menken's other Disney work.Which reminds me: I need to buy the Enchanted soundtrack, as well as the Broadway version of The Little Mermaid.A friend of mine is a friend of Dempsey, and he told me he was very prentensious about his film career.the guy really thinks he is a great actor and that his future in cinema will be great ........... well ... after seeing his performance in enchanted, who is kind of ruined the whole romance part of the movie, i can only say to him "good luck" LOL i have both, the enchanted soundtrack, and the new broadway version of the little mermaid (i have the demo disk as well with piano/vocals).i love very much the enchanted soundtrack. i only saw the movie few weeks ago. but i started to listen to the soundtrack when it was released last year. well, beleive it or not, but i only started to like the soundtrack very much when i saw the movie for the first time seeing the song and the score with the picture is really a thing to do at first !!!! (i'm speaking to the ass**** who don't want to see E.T to not ruin his listening of the soundtrack LOL !!)...speaking about the broadway version of the mermaid, i really need more listening before giving any judment.thanks for reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I like to watch musicals.I don't have a problem with movies. I just in no way need to see everything out there.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Are the two Beauty and the Beast demos that appear on the Special Edition (Be Our Guest and Beauty and the Beast demos) on The Music Behind The Magic cds?I just got The Music Behind The Magic set, and am really looking forward to giving it a listen.Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted March 26, 2008 Author Share Posted March 26, 2008 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmo Lewis 6 Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Congratulations, Colin. You just got yourself a wonderful set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desplat13 1 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm lovin' it, that's for sure. I didn't realize so many songs were taken out of Aladdin. They did some serious story changes. And it is amazing to see the one-liners that got passed over. Ashman was an amazing person. Here is something that got left out of the "Gaston Reprise":Gaston: "Yes, I'm endlessly, wildly resourcefull"Lefou: "As down to the depths you descend"Gaston: "I won't even be mildly remorseful Just as long as I get what I want in the end"All: "Who has brains like Gaston? Entertains like Gaston?"Lefou: "Who can make up these endless refrains like Gaston?"All: "So his marriage we soon will be celebrating..."And that got cut...Colin Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now