Close Encounters 5 note sequence?

[ChuckM 1]

I've always wondered, did Williams compose the five note sequence, or did Spielberg decide on the sequence and Williams based the score off of that?

[Ollie 859]

Williams composed several combinations, then he and Spielberg settled on the sequence they wanted. If my memory is correct Spielberg wanted a 5 note sequence, Williams thought it might be better with 7. They consulted a number expert who told them that there were basically way too many combinations they could come up with so they went back to the sequences already composed and picked one from there.

I'm sure it's on the DVD.

[Sergeant 1,093]

Yep , and I think they decided that more than 5 notes is a melody , they needed more a signal.

[Quintus 5,391]

Williams tried to persuade Spielberg to have 6 or 7 notes, but Spielberg argued that more than 5 would sound more like a melody, when all he wanted was a signal, or "hello". Williams wrote over 300 permutations and after a while they finally settled (still unsure) on the notes we hear in the movie.

They certainly didn't think it would have the effect on the audience it turned out to have.

[ChuckM 1]

So it was kind of a joint effort between both of them. Cool.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

No, John Williams was the composer, it was not a joined effort!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

So they had to go to a "numbers expert" to multiply 5 numbers together?

[Morlock 9]

Yes. It is not easy to come up with every single combination of 5 notes possible. It's not like they only had each note twice. That is every single kind of combination of 5 notes, where you could have any one note appearing up to 5 times in the sequence. It's hard for me to think how one would start computing that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

And this was the 70's, remember, before computers were invented

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

It's basic combinatorics if all you want to do is find out how many ways you can put a bunch of same length notes into 5 slots.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Yes but then you have to consider what key you want them to be in.

[Morlock 9]

And what does John Williams know about basic combinatronics? he specifically stated that he did something like 700 combinations on his own, he thought he exhausted it.....and then this mathematicion told him there was something like 15,000 combinations (I may off on the numbers, but you get the picture).

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Restricting it to the range of two octaves (as the final motif spans more than one), it would be 25 to the power of 5. You don't need a numbers expert for that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Yes, but they probably did not restrict it to 2 octaves when they consulted an expert, that's just the finished product. And then there the length of the notes, and the multitude of variations you can have with that.

[gkgyver 1,638]

To answer another thread: yes we are geeks.

[John Crichton 4]

Sheesh, why do the math yourself when you can pay someone else to get the headache?

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Yes, but they probably did not restrict it to 2 octaves when they consulted an expert, that's just the finished product.

If Morlock's "15000" is correct (I'm too lazy to get up and fetch the booklet to check), the number came from an even smaller selection of notes. 2 octaves give you nearly 10 million possibilities.

And then there the length of the notes, and the multitude of variations you can have with that.

All five notes are the same length, so I figured they didn't take that into account. Otherwise you'd probably end up with billions.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Restricting it to the range of two octaves (as the final motif spans more than one), it would be 25 to the power of 5. You don't need a numbers expert for that.

Isnt this high school math?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I actually find this type of threads (about logic behind well-known anecdotes) very interesting.

[AC1 3,565]

The mathematician said, "Approximately 134.000"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

All five notes are the same length, so I figured they didn't take that into account. Otherwise you'd probably end up with billions.

Isn't the last note longer?

[Quintus 5,391]

Apparantly not, when played down a phone line.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Isn't the last note longer?

Williams' symphonic arrangement has some variations on note lengths, obviously. But the "original" signal as presented in the movie seems to be based on just intervals, not durations.

[skyy38 21]

Technically,it's a 6 note theme,with the pick-up note....

[ChuckM 1]

Pick-up note? All I hear is Bb, C, Ab, Ab, Eb.

[AI 0]

Isn't the last note longer?

Yes it is, in the sketches, which is how it was concieved, the whole phrase is 2 bars, 4 crotchet notes in the first bar, 1 whole note in the second bar.

When it comes to the possible combinations of notes, you have to take in to account that Williams could have figured it out himself, roughly, he already had parameters, it was going to be only diatonic scale notes, of a basic rythym. So he wrote 300 or so, but I doubt he actually wrote them all on paper. They were in his head, and he could play them on the piano for Spielberg, improvising on the fly, just making different patterns.

The asking the math guy was really just a lark. It didnt take into account repeated notes, or scales. You can't calculate a music phrase that way unless it's purely a hypothetical calculation.

God I sound like such a geek saying that. But it's not geeky, it's just a problem that needed to be solved. All kinds of jobs have problems that need to be solved in a logical and practical way.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Well, at least some of them had to be written down, because somewhere in the liner notes there's the comment from Williams, "let's just play again the one we circled yesterday". And you just can't circle what's inside your head. Well, maybe just the one time.