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My re-mastered Empire Strikes Back score


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Williams never looks back on his projects. And he really can't get bothered to get into re-releases of his music.

I doubt he ever heard the Star Wars SE releases.

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I can't complain about how the actual set sounds.

I can.

Me too. Just listen to the CD vs. the iso score on the DVD and the difference is remarkable.

Fine, let me rephrase that as: "Given the circumstances, I can't complain how the actual set sounds". It's a job done right with the material available.

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I did want to give an update... I've been working on this set now and I think I finally have disc 1 finalized... I was playing with the mixes and everything.

I have to admit, I didn't give the SE enough credit, but I still stand by my statement that if it came to it, I'd prefer to listen to a properly mixed score that I could clean up to sound almost as good as a good sounding score that's mixed horribly.

It's been give and take... trying to find a good balance. I've allowed the harp to go a little bit closer to the center than i'd like, but not as much as it had been before. I've always managed to restore some of the room sound that the digital recording seemed to completely strip away.

Not much in track wise has changed... mostly cue lengths have changed... but I did want to post that disc 1 is finalized and what it will look like.

So anyways, here's the track list for disc 1

Disc 1 (58:55)

01) 20th Century Fox Fanfare - [0:27]

02) Main Title - [1:35]

03) Probe Droid - Echo Base - [6:42]

04) Wampa Ice Lair - [3:35]

05) Visions of Obi-Wan - [3:30]

06) Speeders Take Flight - [1:51]

07) Probe Droid Reconnaissance - Aboard the Executor - [3:09]

08) Attack Positions - [2:08]

09) Ion Cannon - [1:57]

10) Imperial Walkers - [3:43]

11) Beneath the AT-AT - [4:15]

12) Escape in the Millennium Falcon - [3:05]

13) Asteroid Field - [4:16]

14) Arrival at Dagobah - [3:38]

15) Setting Up Camp - [1:21]

16) Luke's Nocturnal Visitor - [2:31]

17) Han Solo and the Princess - [3:28]

18) Jedi Master Revealed - Mynock Cave - [5:44]

19) The Training of a Jedi Knight - [1:43]

20) The Magic Tree - [3:36]

I'll update you on Disc 2 soon... if anyone would like to hear some of disc 1 to compare, let me know.

I for one would love to hear your work on this score.It is by far my favorite score ever,and i really agree with what you said about the mixing.In many cues you barely hear the strings and they have very busy parts to play.I'm sure the result that is on the SE is not what Williams had in mind.Why would he bother write complicated parts for the strings if they're only going toget buried in the mix.

Anyway,i would gladely listen to your remixing.

Thank

Richard

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I for one believe that John Williams cares about mixing.

One of the things I've slowly learned over my years of studying Williams brilliance is just how in-tune he is with the whole aural experience.

When he mixes instruments, he does it in such a way as to know exactly where the instruments are and how they will mix. Would the sound of the clarinet and the flute mix he often uses be the same if the two instruments were on opposite sides of the sound field?

You need but listen to his releases to know he knows his stuff. Remember that cd re-release of the LP "Rhythms in Motion?"

If you read the reproduced liner notes, it says that "its as if Stereo were created for John Williams, not the other way around."

In that time, no one cared about the sound field, but even BEFORE stereo was around, Williams was composing in such a way as to create a complete spacial field of sound, with melodies jumping from instrument to instrument groups, from left to right, quiet to loud...

I don't think Williams just let people do what they wanted when it came to the original releases. He is said to have produced them, and looking at ALL of them, you get a good feel for what he does, and what he doesn't do.

Instruments are mixed certain ways in the sets he oversees.

Then you have sets like the SE's that are mixed completely different. That don't fit that and it becomes Obvious that Williams had little to nothing to do with them.

Williams ability to mix instruments and instrument sounds, and synth and the whole mixing of sounds wouldn't be HALF as effective as it is if Williams didn't understand, spatially, what was going to happen... and that's why I have a very firm belief that Williams is keenly aware of how scores are mixed and how his scores are to be mixed.

For moments like In Duel of the Fates, where, right as the orchestra is starting to build, and the sound field narrows slightly and the horns are moved...that's intentional... because right after that, and it returns to normal, it makes the build seem that much more intense have grown and swollen out into the full field of sound.

And moments where he mixes certain sounds in certain areas to get an effect... if they were just anywhere, it wouldn't have the same effect.

That's why I get upset with the mixing so much because It's great to have his music... all of it... and have it sound this good... but what's the point if it's a mosh of problems... with things where they're not suppose to be. To me,that's as distracting as the orchestra flubbing notes, or the tempo being wrong, or the whole thing being out of tune.

The irony is when I first joined here, none of this was that important or noticeable to me (which some of my old old sets show) but as I've grown, I've actually adapted and have achieved the ability to know exactly where an instrument was based on the position in the sound field, and I can see the instrument and feel it... which is why mixing is important to me. When it's wrong, the whole effect is lost on me....

my techniques and my programs have become gradually more sophisticated. I use to have great trouble re-mixing 5.1 because none of the programs I had could adequately reproduce the surround sound and place all the channels where they needed to be, and so DVD rips sounded very narrow and dead a lot. The program I have now allows me to mix directly into 5.1. Just place the channels, say which one, and output as wav and it's done....

So it's not just a learning curve, it's also the technology involved...

So... anyways...

If people are interested, just PM me...

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I can't complain about how the actual set sounds.

I can.

Me too. Just listen to the CD vs. the iso score on the DVD and the difference is remarkable.

Fine, let me rephrase that as: "Given the circumstances, I can't complain how the actual set sounds". It's a job done right with the material available.

I won't argue with that. I know they did the best with what they had, and the best masters weren't found until after the set was finished.

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I won't argue with that. I know they did the best with what they had, and the best masters weren't found until after the set was finished.

Actually the masters weren't found for Superman until the time of the 2000 DVD release was being worked on from what I remember reading.

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that set did only have a short release... Wonder if they'll ever re-release it from the better masters...

Well, just wanted to give an update, Disc 1 is finished and uploaded.

Disc 3 I also have "finished" but I'm still wondering if there isn't something out-there I could add to it. Any recommendations?

Right now the track list for Disc 3 is:

Disc 3 (50:53)

01) Probe Droid (Film Alternate) - [1:14]

02) Imperial March - [2:59]

03) The Asteroid Field (Boston Pops) - [4:16]

04) Luke's Nocturnal Visitor (Film Ending) - [0:44]

05) Han Solo and the Princes (LSO) - [4:49]

06) Yoda's Theme - [3:30]

07) City in the Clouds (SE Alternate Take) - [2:19]

08) Han Solo in Carbonite (Alternate) - [0:43]

09) End Credits (Film Alternate) - [4:27]

10) Imperial March (Rage Mix) - [2:27]

11) Star Wars Disco - [3:34]

12) MECO Darth Vader/ Yoda's Theme - [4:18]

13) MECO The Battle in the Snow - [4:14]

14) MECO The Force Theme - [4:42]

15) MECO The Asteroid Field/Finale - [6:30]

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I for one believe that John Williams cares about mixing.

One of the things I've slowly learned over my years of studying Williams brilliance is just how in-tune he is with the whole aural experience.

Really... yet he continues to work with Shawn Murphy. What does that say about Williams and how tuned in he is with the whole aural experience?

-Erik-

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Sorry, was confusing him with another guy... this is the guy who records the orchestra...

I don't understand what your point is...

Murphy records AND mixes his scores... and for the most part they sound terrible!

-Erik-

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I dunno about them sounding terrible.... but ok...

They are all mixed live as they go... with very little mixing done after the fact...

He also uses a bit of automation which may be why certain things don't mix quite well..

But again, I'm not sure what you mean by most of them sounding terrible. Yes the albums have a certain sound to them but it doesn't take much to adjust them and make them a bit more present.

eh...

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I dunno about them sounding terrible.... but ok...

Check "The Moon Rising" from A.I. And I'm far from an audiophile.

Also, Seven Years in Tibet sounds... funny.

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Sorry, was confusing him with another guy... this is the guy who records the orchestra...I don't understand what your point is...
Murphy records AND mixes his scores... and for the most part they sound terrible!-Erik-

The good FAR outweighs the bad when it comes to Shawn Murphy's skills. The majority of his engineering sounds superb.

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Sorry, was confusing him with another guy... this is the guy who records the orchestra...I don't understand what your point is...
Murphy records AND mixes his scores... and for the most part they sound terrible!-Erik-

The good FAR outweighs the bad when it comes to Shawn Murphy's skills. The majority of his engineering sounds superb.

Superb? Nah. I say that Dennis Sands, Bruce Botnick, Jeff Vaughan, Stephen McLaughlin and Casey Stone... as well as a few others... are superb. But Murphy... well, he is the only engineer that can make a 90 piece orchestra sound like a chamber orchestra. His recordings and mixes are thin, heavy on the bass with the lower brass sounding weak. Now, I will admit that for other composers he does a really good job... Some of James Newton Howard's latest, early Horner (The Rocketeer IS superb) and one of my favorites Jeepeers Creepers 1 and 2 are some fine examples. But when it comes down to Williams he misses the boat consistently.

-Erik-

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well, seeing as he didn't do empire... I think that we could probably talk about other things...

I do like and am interested in what you have to say, but perhaps you could make another thread about it?

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just wanted to let you all know, if you're trying to get disc 2 or any of the flac for this set, they are not up. I said I'd announce when they're up and I haven't so they're not up yet so if you're getting error messages, that's why.

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GM,

I decided to check out Disc 1 of your ESB set. I must say that you definitely did a lot better job this time around the cues do sound better with ESB.

The only things I didn't like were the separation of "Main Title / Probe Droid / Echo Base" that should have been one continuous cue. Others that should have not been separated are, the first "Battle Of Hoth" cues which you labeled as "Attack Positions" and "Ion Cannon", "Arrival At Dagobah" and the Dagobah cue is just one cue, it's not two separate cues.

Two more cues I think you should have left as a whole was "Wampa's Lair" and "Visions Of Obi-Wan" simply because there is really no true clean opening for "Visions Of Obi-Wan". The Anthology set was missing the opening for "Visions Of Obi-Wan", I believe but that's just me on that one. I mean I know that they are supposed to be separate cues but just am saying...

As I said the music does sound better than before and I love what you did with The Asteroid Field cue. I will be using some of these cues to replace on my ESB set for sure.

You know the thing with the Special Edition sets is that a lot of cues there's too much hissing going on especially in ROTJ of how they were mixed. I wish they would remix them properly like how the Asteroid Field is mixed on the Musical Journey DVD which is perfectly and re-release them. Even when trying to fiddle around with mastering I guess of the OT scores it's just too hard to do it with some cues because as I said there's too much hissing going on and it's nearly impossible to get rid of.

Let us know when Disc 2 is up please, I'd love to check that out as well.

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if you want them please PM me.

As for the separations... I kinda prefer them that way. I suppose some of them are left overs from the use of the Anthology tracks... which are separated in a lot of cases this way.

The separation of Main Title and Probe Droid was done simply because that's how it was recorded.

I also toyed with the idea of placing the other Probe Droid there but decided against it as there was no way to cut back to the Echo base material.

I simply prefer the tracks edited this way... the way they were recorded and in some cases used. Certain parts of tracks aren't used and others are.

While cleaning these, a lot of times it would become obvious when another take was placed into a track because there'd be some difference in the mix... some different sound or noise or something that would say "this is different." I didn't use that as a guide, but if I could separate the tracks, I would.

If you don't like it, you're more than welcome to do the small task of layering the last few moments and resaving them.

As for the FLAC's, I'm going to upload those once I finish Disc 2.

I've kinda taken a small break simply because I'm a bit tired of hearing the same things over and over again. You don't catch as much that way... so I'm going to take a short break, get back onto disc 2 and really make sure it's fine.

I know I checked it the other day and for the most part, I only had to do small fixes or some small error corrections so disc 2 shouldn't be long.

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I don't want this to come off as a complaint, because I do appreciate everything you've done for us thus far GM, but the bit rate varies on the ESB disc 3 (which dosen't particularly bother me, 'cause the lowest is 128 and that's what I convert everything to - I'm not a pompous ass about 320 AAC or MP3-sourced CDs or whatever, like some people...). Just letting you know. Disc 1 is consistent and that department, and I'm excited for disc two (don't listen to the naysayers, you're doing a fine job).

Now get Disc 2 up there ya wanker! ROTFLMAO

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I don't want this to come off as a complaint, because I do appreciate everything you've done for us thus far GM, but the bit rate varies on the ESB disc 3 (which dosen't particularly bother me, 'cause the lowest is 128 and that's what I convert everything to - I'm not a pompous ass about 320 AAC or MP3-sourced CDs or whatever, like some people...). Just letting you know. Disc 1 is consistent and that department, and I'm excited for disc two (don't listen to the naysayers, you're doing a fine job).

Now get Disc 2 up there ya wanker! ROTFLMAO

"Pompous ass"? Sound quality isn't about elitism; it's about preserving the true sound of a recording. Saying lossy compression is okay is like saying that a digital scan of the Mona Lisa is as good as the original painting.

One of the reasons that LPs have intrinsically better sound quality is that they do not digitize (compress, essentially) sound. If you were to look at a waveform up close, here's how the formats might compare:

waveform.jpg

Unfortunately, LPs are rarely produced these days, and since they are not digital cannot be edited (recording/transferring LPs to digital form introduces its own losses in sound quality), but CDs give a decent approximation in detail of their sound, and formats like SA-CD bring us further back to the perfection of the LP. However, with apathy toward sound fidelity increasing, even CD sound quality may become obsolete.

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When you refuse a CD because it's MP3-sourced, yeah as a matter of fact.

Hmm, depends what you are talking about. In this case, it completely defeats the point to make considerable efforts to improve sound quality only to downgrade it with MP3 compression. Fortunately, GM says he will be offering FLAC (lossless) downloads as well, so there is no problem. As far as music purchases go, I always seek the highest sound quality; however, I will settle for compression if necessary (examples: Casino Royale complete score, Jeremy Soule's Harry Potter game soundtracks).

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The flac will be available soon. As for disc 3, a lot of the material comes from varying sources. I'm not sure what quality some of it started out in, but do realize, the lapse in quality you're talking about is, I'm guessing, to do with the disco versions of the themes..

I think you'll survive ;-)

I know some of the concert suites were saved in MP3 format when people gave them to me, so if those are low I apologize. I had a few versions to choose from but these sounded like the best performances to me so I choose them. If anyone knows what CD's there or on has higher quality, I'd be willing to trade out what I have now for higher quality.

But yea... disc 3 will vary simply because it's from many sources. The actual "score" music should remain the same along with Yoda's theme and Imperial March and the end credits... the rest might vary though.

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yea...hah...

the rest is from as high of quality as possible... but you are right... they are a little lower in quality. lol

They guy who uploaded them a while ago gave us the link and thought MP3 was "da bomb" and we all tried to persuade him otherwise, but never got much results lol...

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I vaguely remember seeing something like that a while ago... I like MP3 though, I don't care what anyone says. For my purposes (listening to music, and that's it), it works just fine. And the disco tracks may be lower in quality, but again, they sound just fine.

On a lighter note, the Imperial March (Rage Mix) sounds like something Eric Serra would be responsible for, and the Meco tracks are hilarious. JW approved of those? lol

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John Williams didn't "approve of" either. Star Wars music belongs to Bantha Music and is licensed to other composers/arrangers/editors for a price.

There's a certain cult catchiness to the Meco music... I like it. The Force Commander tracks aren't bad, either (the only effect I really don't like is the robotic "One, two, three, four!"). Why is all this stuff being included in a "remastered" Empire Strikes Back set, though.

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Hey, just wanted to let you all know that I'm currently working on the set...

I did have a question though.

Is there an Alternate to "Rebel Fleet?"

I noticed the two performances from the Anthology and the SE are extremely different performance wise, and also the Anthology has a small omission near the end before the final loud statement of the Han and Leia Theme (which then goes into the end credits).

I'm going by the Album breakdown that a was mentioned earlier in another thread and I noticed it's not listed.

I thought that perhaps it was simply a small edit, but I noticed that the SE has a harp glissando over the strings as they re-enter to do the final statement which isn't at all heard on the Anthology.

Can any shed some light on this? If it's an alternate that's fine... just curious.

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This seems self-explanatory. Alternative take is correct (and with the aforementioned omission before Han and Leia's theme). There's also a difference in the editing of the end credits: on the Anthology, the final violin note of Yoda's theme is sustained into the Imperial March, while on the SE it merely cuts off. However, on the Anthology, the edit is clumsily made, whereas on the SE, it is smooth, despite the lack of string continuation.

Or maybe it's the other way around.

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I think it's the other way around but I get your point ;-)

Thanks for the response. I wanted to be sure before I did anything definative.

That just means I'll figure out how to present it... one on disc 2 and one on disc 3... If only there were a clean ending. I have a clean opening for the end credits...

Anyone know of one? I know how much you all are against such a travesty though. I may present it both ways for you to decide.

lol

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Well Disc 2 is done.

Ill be uploading it to the index tonight. I'll also get the FLAC's up.

I will also include a link to download the replacement track for Disc 3. I've decided to add the SE Alternate for "Rebel Fleet" to the "Film Alternate" of the End Credits...track 9... So that'll be up to download and replace that track.

The final track list for the set is as follows:

EDIT:

SCROLL DOWN FOR CORRECTED TRACK LIST

As much as I love my set, it would be negligent of me to not say that you should get or have the SE first. This is just meant as a fan edit and by getting it, you're saying you already have the SE...

I'd be lying if I were to say this isn't meant to replace it lol... because it is lol... but you should still have the SE for good measure.

Just message me if you don't have the link.

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Someone sent it to me... I'll ask where it came from next time I get a chance.It was between that one and another recording, but that one was a bit better sounding performance wise...so I choose that.

EDIT:

Actually I take that all back!There is a track I want to add to Disc 3 as well...The Story of Empire Strikes Back as told by C3P0... I COMPLETELY forgot about it lol...I'm gonna add that to disc 3...so if you haven't downloaded it yet, wait till I say it's up.I'll also have it as something you can download separate as well.

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Oh, so it probably isn't the London Symphony Orchestra. City of Prague did a decent recording, but Gerhardt's is better regarded.

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No, I have confidence in the person who sent it to me that what it was labled as is what it is.

I have three recordings:

01) Prague (which is the one I almost had on the set)

02) LSO (The one on the Set. It sounds like them though...

03) Gernhardt (which is nice, but the instruments are mixed oddly and I don't like how it sounds)

I ended up making a few changes to Disc 3 as I said I might.

Here is the final track list. If you want the two new tracks for disc 3, the links for the separate files are up on the Index.

As for the change, I forgot to include the "Story of Star Wars as told by C3P0"... it completely slipped my mind. I decided to put it at the end then put the finale/end credits track after that. So if you've downloaded disc 3 already, you'll have to delete track 9 End Credits.mp3, and move all the tracks back one, and then download these and place them at the end.

If you haven't downloaded disc 3, don't worry, these will be included in Disc 3.

Anyways, Disc 1, 2, and 3 are uploaded.

Disc 1 FLAC is up, I'm uploading Disc 2 and 3 will be after that. It says it will take about 50 minutes for Disc 2 do finish... then I'll do Disc 3

Here is the final track list:

STAR WARS: The Empire Strikes Back - Definative Edition - 3 Disc Set

[3:01:28]

Disc 1 (1:02:20)

01) 20th Century Fox Fanfare - [0:27]

02) Main Title - [1:35]

03) Probe Droid - Echo Base - [6:42]

04) Wampa Ice Lair - [3:35]

05) Visions of Obi-Wan - [3:30]

06) Speeders Take Flight - [1:51]

07) Probe Droid Reconnaissance - Aboard the Executor - [3:09]

08) Attack Positions - [2:08]

09) Ion Cannon - [1:57]

10) Imperial Walkers - [3:43]

11) Beneath the AT-AT - [4:15]

12) Escape in the Millennium Falcon - [3:05]

13) Asteroid Field - [4:16]

14) Arrival at Dagobah - [3:38]

15) Setting Up Camp - [1:21]

16) Luke's Nocturnal Visitor - [2:31]

17) Han Solo and the Princess - [3:28]

18) Jedi Master Revealed - Mynock Cave - [5:44]

19) The Training of a Jedi Knight - [1:43]

20) The Magic Tree - [3:36]

Disc 2 (54:46)

01) Attacking a Star Destroyer - [3:06]

02) Yoda and the Force - [4:01]

03) Imperial Starfleet Deployed - [1:17]

04) City in the Clouds - [4:46]

05) Lando's Palace - [3:53]

06) Luke Leaves Dagobah - [1:00]

07) Betrayal at Bespin - [1:44]

08) Putting Together 3P0 - [1:01]

09) Deal with the Dark Lord - [2:35]

10) Carbon Freeze - [2:42]

11) Han Solo in Carbonite (Film) - [1:37]

12) Luke Pursues the Captives - [3:21]

13) Departure of Boba Fett - [3:41]

14) Clash of the Lightsabers - [4:14]

15) Rescue from Cloud City - [5:20]

16) Hyperspace - [4:03]

17) The Rebel Fleet - End Credits - [6:17]

Disc 3 (1:04:21)

01) Probe Droid (Film Alternate) - [1:14]

02) Imperial March - [2:59]

03) The Asteroid Field (Boston Pops) - [4:16]

04) Luke's Nocturnal Visitor (Film Ending) - [0:44]

05) Han Solo and the Princes (LSO) - [4:49]

06) Yoda's Theme - [3:30]

07) City in the Clouds (SE Alternate Take) - [2:19]

08) Han Solo in Carbonite (Alternate) - [0:43]

09) Imperial March (Rage Mix) - [2:27]

10) Star Wars Disco - [7:30]

11) MECO Darth Vader/ Yoda's Theme - [4:18]

12) MECO The Battle in the Snow - [4:14]

13) MECO The Force Theme - [4:42]

14) MECO The Asteroid Field/Finale - [6:30]

15) Story of Empire Strikes Back as told By 3P0 - [8:48]

16) Rebel Fleet (Alternate) - End Credits (Film Alternate) - [6:25]

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great stuff!

Like the 3rd disc, but i like listening to the imperial march with the rest of the music, but fair enough it aint in the movie really untill the end credits.

:)

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