What exactly did William Ross do in Harry Potter the Chamber of Secrets

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

can someone please dial me in about the details of reuse fees, orchestras used and locations recorded at?

[Luke Skywalker 1,791]

Helgii hasn't earned any credibility here.If he really works for Williams Ross he sounds like someone convering up his boss' ass

Good God, that's paranoid.

Anyway he or she said Ocelot's words were bullshit, without giving any proof of him/her to the Ross connection. A photo with Ross for example?

We know ocelot works in the industry and is a composer/orchestrator.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

You're presumptuous in believing Ray Barnsbury has sufficient gravitas to offend. But thank you for the disingenuous welcome.

I like this guy!

Anyway he or she said Ocelot's words were bullshit, without giving any proof of him/her to the Ross connection. A photo with Ross for example?

We know ocelot works in the industry and is a composer/orchestrator.

This is what happens when you type "Hellgi" on Google. Check the other entries if you want.

[Luke Skywalker 1,791]

Oh OK. It seems more feasible. But proof could still have been provided.

I could be named Conrad Pope and that doesnt not make me him...

[King Mark 3,624]

Hmmm.More feasable but how does hellgi bring up that guy in google?I don't see the name hellgi in that guys website

And this guys job seems to make his boss look good.Maybe they protect each other 's rep in that industry.I'm sure John Williams doesn't read this place,but I wouldn't be surprised more minor composers like Williams Ross would

[Elmo Lewis 6]

So Ross was pissed that we, the JWFan forum members, had found out his secret about Chamber of Secrets and sent a minion of his under a screenname that'll link to a proof-worthy page... just to protect the smoke screen, but thank God we know better?

[King Mark 3,624]

Yes

[jw_researcher 0]

Researcher Bill Wrobel has written a paper on the first two Harry Potter scores, having seen the written scores for both films.

His paper is at this site:

http://www.filmmusic.cjb.net/

Go to "Williams" and then "Harry Potter".

On page 3 of the paper, he mentions a copy of the sketches was laid in with the COS score and all the cues are in JW's hand. This seems to suggest JW wrote all of the cues for the film in sketch form.

In any event, this paper is valuable because it's from someone who physically handled the actual score and saw what's in it (apparently the sketches and full scores for the first two films were made available to Bill).

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Did KM pay you to post that?

Just kidding...thanks for the info, I think that's actually what KM based his argument on a few years ago.

Ray Barnsbury

[Luke Skywalker 1,791]

Well i think Williams composed all the score in sketches.

Then Ross got all that and the full orchestrated new themes and possibly original action cues found in the CDs. (20-40 minutes)

As Hellgi said (there is diference between writing and composing) Williams Ross wrote down all the music and the complete orchestrated papers -> the actual ones used in the recording sessions.

So yes, he wrote the whole score but did not compose a new sole note of it.

So he told us no lie, but neither the whole thruth.

I mean, almost most composers now just have the 'Music by' credit in their scores. But you they dont have in big letters who orchestrates nad adapts it.

Lets say COS is 'Music by John Williams'. And Ross is credited because he was hired to score, but in the end, he did not.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

In the end, I don't really care about the specifics of who exactly did what. It's a John Williams score regardless.

Ray Barnsbury

[Elmo Lewis 6]

In the end, I don't really care about the specifics of who exactly did what.

You know, the sad part is that, even two pages later, neither do I.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Indeed. Here we are....again.

Ray Barnsbury

[Ollie 1,059]

William Ross was never hired to compose a score, he was hired to adapt and arrange the music from Williams' first score and work in the new material written.Is it so difficult to comprehend?

In the end, I don't really care about the specifics of who exactly did what. It's a John Williams score regardless.Ray Barnsbury

Correct, I don't loose any sleep worrying about it. All the music was written by Williams and based on his material.

I'd hate to see the reaction if the subject of ghostwriting ever came up.

[tharpdevenport 4]

I recall a couple things:

Williams was busy with something else and I guess it was him that gos Ross the job. Then a former board member said Ross's score was rejected. So they must have asked Williams in, but probably still being busy he must have had Ross help him out, or either some of Ross's score was left in.

[Neimoidian 14]

William Ross was never hired to compose a score, he was hired to adapt and arrange the music from Williams' first score and work in the new material written.Is it so difficult to comprehend?

In the end, I don't really care about the specifics of who exactly did what. It's a John Williams score regardless.Ray Barnsbury

Correct, I don't loose any sleep worrying about it. All the music was written by Williams and based on his material.

I'd hate to see the reaction if the subject of ghostwriting ever came up.

Imagine that Zimmer fans have to go through this with each and every score - half a dozen of additional composers behind one and none will ever know what material came from Zimmer and what did not. Poor fellows. :cool:

[Red 75]

You're presumptuous in believing Ray Barnsbury has sufficient gravitas to offend. But thank you for the disingenuous welcome.

Welcome,you seem to fit right into the board

That's an insult it my book.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Everyone sure seems grouchy lately.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I like utilizers of commodious and nubilous language, you can very facilely determine that they are flipping through a thesaurus as they type.

It's how you weed out the wise from the clueless.

[loveydovey 0]

I like utilizers of commodious and nubilous language, you can very facilely determine that they are flipping through a thesaurus as they type.

It's how you weed out the wise from the clueless.

That you somehow found my straightforward, if descriptive, vocabulary demanding and affectedly florid speaks more of your fluency than of my language. And yet I would never intimate you as clueless.

[Ollie 1,059]

So did we welcome you to the board yet? :cool:

[John Crichton 4]

Everyone sure seems grouchy lately.

Indeed. Hot summer?

Nice work on the sig Mark, but it needs to flash or something. :cool:

[Ollie 1,059]

Eh, it wouldn't do any good.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

You can have my abandoned signature.

[Salacius 7]

I found it very easy hearing the music that was written based on previews ques and new music by Williams. It's like night and day. Dunno what is this debate all about. Most music is Williams'.

Could you please jot down a list of the music you think is absolutely by Williams, and the music that you think isn't?

Sure

I can only tell you from the CD:

1. Prologue: Book II And The Escape From The Dursley's/Ross

2. Fawkes The Phoenix/Williams

3. Chamber Of Secrets,/Williams

4. Gilderoy Lockhart /Williams

5. Flying Car /Willams

6. Knockturn Alley / Ross

7. Introducing Colin / Ross

8. Dueling Club / Willams

9. Dobby The House Elf / Willams

10. Spiders / William

11. Moaning Myrtle / Willams

12. Meeting Aragog / Willams

13. Fawkes Is Reborn / Willams

14. Meeting Tom Riddle / Ross

15. Cornish Pixies real / Ross

16. Polyjuice Potion / Ross

17. Cakes For Crabbe And Goyle/ Ross

18. Dueling The Basilisk / Williams

19. Reunion Of Friends / Ross

20. Harry's Wondrous World /well....

[Damo 0]

Whatever what Williams Ross did to the CoS score still sounded great even though it is still a John Williams score after all...

[Elmo Lewis 6]

the CoS score still sounded great even though it is still a John Williams score after all...

Hmmm....

[Salacius 7]

Whatever what Williams Ross did to the CoS score still sounded great even though it is still a John Williams score after all...

Oh yeah man, for sure

[Hitch 57]

Shall I quote Rhett Butler's final line from "Gone with the Wind" at this point???

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes please do.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

"Frankly my dear... I love you, let's remarry"

[John Crichton 4]

16. Polyjuice Potion / Ross

17. Cakes For Crabbe And Goyle/ Ross

Horsefeathers. If Ross wrote either of those I'll eat my hat. Any hat, you choose.

John- sick of this debate but couldn't let that pass

[Elmo Lewis 6]

[John Crichton 4]

A hat that I own. I've managed to pass up the medieval armor in all the clothes stores so far.

[Guest macrea]

can someone please dial me in about the details of reuse fees, orchestras used and locations recorded at?

It has to do with the American Federation of Musicians (AFM). Basically all major orchestra players in L.A. are members and they are contracted and paid for their performance on one recording - namely, what's heard in the film itself. If the music is used again, such as on a soundtrack album, then every musician who played on the recording gets paid a second time. This is the reuse fee.

There are also "mechanical" royalties that have to be paid to the composer and publisher for every cue used, and licensing fees that have to be paid to whomever owns the recording. Hence it is very costly to put out a soundtrack album that was produced under AFM restrictions. So costly, in fact, that this is why there were re-recordings of scores like "Jaws," "The Fury," etc... because it was actually cheaper to produce another session with a different contract (recorded more quickly) than it would be to pay to reuse the original recording over again. In the case of "The Fury" the rerecording was done in London where it was more cost effective to book the LSO for 2 days than to repay American musicians their salaries for 10 days or whatever. (Mixers, copyists, editors, etc. can also be AFM members, so you could be talking about 100 people or more to pay again.) So for Williams (or anybody's) scores done in London (whether by a named orchestra or not) the studios and record labels do not have to worry about reuse payments. It's done as a work for hire and the studio owns the recording. This is why we got an expanded "Raiders" but not its 2 sequels.

Remember too that on top of all that there are costs for mastering, manufacturing and marketing. It isn't cheap and orchestral soundtracks generally don't sell well enough to offset all of these factors. As an aside, in general it is exorbitant union and guild fees that have led to so many productions going to Canada, Australia, etc.

[Henry B 50]

16. Polyjuice Potion / Ross

17. Cakes For Crabbe And Goyle/ Ross

Horsefeathers. If Ross wrote either of those I'll eat my hat. Any hat, you choose.

John- sick of this debate but couldn't let that pass

"Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" doesn't include much more than permutations of existing themes: Nimbus 2000, the Sorcerer's Stone motif, the Spiders motif and the Chamber of Secrets theme. Speaking of the Stone motif, most would agree that it is misused in Chamber of Secrets, with the music schizophrenically alternating between it and the new Chamber theme. Williams doesn't generally mess up his themes like this; however, all uses of the Stone motif are recycled, so Ross was probably the culprit. "Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" includes the Stone motif as well as other reused Sorcerer's Stone music ("The Arrival of Baby Harry"). That only leaves Nimbus 2000 on tuba and the Chamber theme, and it seems like no great feat for somebody other than Williams to have written them.

I don't remember much from "Polyjuice Potion" other than some use of Nimbus 2000, but I do remember it (haha) being unmemorable.

[Marcus 390]

I should think this debate has been settled by now, but cannot resist the temptation to add:

William Ross does not possess the technical facility to write in an "authentic" Williams style; any original Ross material would probably be limited to simpler, blander writing... Again, it isn´t easy writing in a truly williamsesque idiom, which is why most who attempt it fail.

Ross wouldn´t have the chops to so seamlessly blend with anything penned by Williams. Adapting already existing material (fully "syntaxed" music) is a different matter.

[Richard Penna 3,664]

I'll just put in my 2p: Cakes for Crabba and Goyle sounds 100% Williams, not someone trying to imitate him. I've only heard one score by Ross (T-Rex imax score), and nothing came even remotely close to what Williams is capable of. I always put the slightly lacking quality of some cues in CoS simply down to the lack of time Williams had to write it.

I guess some of the other cues labelled as Ross in that list do sound a bit more of a mish-mash - the opening track for example has never sounded to me like a complete, smooth composition, as there are a couple of transitions between themes that I've never thought completely work. But the idea that someone other than Williams wrote these is a little hard to comprehend... they just have that sound.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

can someone please dial me in about the details of reuse fees, orchestras used and locations recorded at?

It has to do with the American Federation of Musicians (AFM). Basically all major orchestra players in L.A. are members and they are contracted and paid for their performance on one recording - namely, what's heard in the film itself. If the music is used again, such as on a soundtrack album, then every musician who played on the recording gets paid a second time. This is the reuse fee.

There are also "mechanical" royalties that have to be paid to the composer and publisher for every cue used, and licensing fees that have to be paid to whomever owns the recording. Hence it is very costly to put out a soundtrack album that was produced under AFM restrictions. So costly, in fact, that this is why there were re-recordings of scores like "Jaws," "The Fury," etc... because it was actually cheaper to produce another session with a different contract (recorded more quickly) than it would be to pay to reuse the original recording over again. In the case of "The Fury" the rerecording was done in London where it was more cost effective to book the LSO for 2 days than to repay American musicians their salaries for 10 days or whatever. (Mixers, copyists, editors, etc. can also be AFM members, so you could be talking about 100 people or more to pay again.) So for Williams (or anybody's) scores done in London (whether by a named orchestra or not) the studios and record labels do not have to worry about reuse payments. It's done as a work for hire and the studio owns the recording. This is why we got an expanded "Raiders" but not its 2 sequels.

Remember too that on top of all that there are costs for mastering, manufacturing and marketing. It isn't cheap and orchestral soundtracks generally don't sell well enough to offset all of these factors. As an aside, in general it is exorbitant union and guild fees that have led to so many productions going to Canada, Australia, etc.

Ah...now I understand. Thanks mate!

[King Mark 3,624]

I should think this debate has been settled by now, but cannot resist the temptation to add:

William Ross does not possess the technical facility to write in an "authentic" Williams style; any original Ross material would probably be limited to simpler, blander writing... Again, it isn´t easy writing in a truly williamsesque idiom, which is why most who attempt it fail.

Ross wouldn´t have the chops to so seamlessly blend with anything penned by Williams. Adapting already existing material (fully "syntaxed" music) is a different matter.

there,that's what I'm trying to say

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'll just put in my 2p: Cakes for Crabba and Goyle sounds 100% Williams, not someone trying to imitate him. I've only heard one score by Ross (T-Rex imax score), and nothing came even remotely close to what Williams is capable of. I always put the slightly lacking quality of some cues in CoS simply down to the lack of time Williams had to write it.

Maybe that's because Ross was writing in his own style for the IMAX score, and not an intentional mimic of Williams' style.

I'd bet that at least 50% of film composers are well aware of Williams' style and would be quite capable of imitating it (though how well they do it is of course a completely different matter). I listen to Giacchino's early Medal of Honor scores and the similarities to Williams are obvious. But then I listen to LOST or ALIAS and his own style completely takes over - in fact there's nary a trumpet to be heard in either of those shows.

I still don't understand why people are so upset at the idea that Ross could imitate Williams' style. People like John Debney have made their careers out of it.

[Henry B 50]

Also, why try so hard to defend such mediocre music? Chamber of Secrets is not exactly the smartest score Williams has done (or hasn't!). Bumbling tuba for comic mischief, twinkling mark tree for every slightest instance of magic. It's music for five year olds.

Some of Williams's new material, like "Dueling the Basilisk," is excellent, though.

[Ollie 1,059]

Wake me when reality finally sets in.

[King Mark 3,624]

Another explaination is that some very short cues were recorded by Williams,like RotS which has recording session cues lasting 1 minute or less.The way the album was assembled ,Ross took those cues and put HHPS material between them to assemble the album tracks.That would explain that cues like Cake for Crabbe and Doyle might contain both original Williams material and Ross filler.Or that most of Prologue:Book 2 and Escape from the Dursley seems like re-hash except the end,where Williams might have scored the car flying away.Or Reunion of Friends,Williams would have written a short cue for Hermione arriving back to the great hall(it's the exact cue showing WILLIAMS explaining the music on the DVD featurette),then Ross just re-recorded The House Cup(slightly modified).

Yes,I like this.

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

KM, you are a very insecure person, aren't you?

[King Mark 3,624]

obviously

[mahler3 478]

In the case of "The Fury" the rerecording was done in London where it was more cost effective to book the LSO for 2 days than to repay American musicians their salaries for 10 days or whatever.

Pretty sure The Fury re-recording was only as a result of Superman sessions finishing early so Williams wisely utilised the time well.

However you are of course right in what you state, many British musicians actually get screwed in comparison to our American friends, the UK musicians union were always miles behind - many UK musicians that played before the 1980's do not get any royalties at all as no records were kept as to which musician played during which session. Believe it or not the legendary Sid Sax was a culprit of fiddling (errr so to speak! ) some freelance musicians out of money that played with him.

Anyway, what were we talking about again?! Oh yes that's right, the usual Ross & Doyle bashing judged upon limited knowledge of their scores - come on people open your minds!

[Jim Ware 525]

Or Reunion of Friends,Williams would have written a short cue for Hermione arriving back to the great hall(it's the exact cue showing WILLIAMS explaining the music on the DVD featurette

That footage is from the Philosopher's Stone sessions. It shows Williams conducing at Air Lyndhurst - Chamber of Secrets was recorded exclusively at Abbey Road.

Pretty sure The Fury re-recording was only as a result of Superman sessions finishing early so Williams wisely utilised the time well.

Williams' memory is faulty on this point: The Fury was recorded in February 78, but Superman sessions didn't start until July.

[mahler3 478]

Ok cheers Jim for clearing that up, knew I had read that somewhere. Did he really go all the way to London just to re-record it with the LSO or was it recorded when he finished the Dracula sessions then perhaps?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If so them why does The Fury sound great and Dracula like shite?