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The Official CLASSICAL Thread


Saxbabe

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Beethoven was pretty much romantic.

He is usually considered to be between both styles. He was pretty much classical until 1800. But yes, for most of his life, he was more romantic than classical. Same with Schubert.

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Film music is incidental music, which itself is part of classical music,

But then all music is classical music, which cannot be true.

Also film music that employ more modern types of music like pop, jazz, synth etc...can not be classical music.

That is why I don't mind the medium the music was composed for, but the music itself. Talking about film music you include all kind of music. It can have pop music, jazz music, classical music, electronic music... Lot of styles used in one medium.

That is why I consider JW film scores classical music. I don't care if they were written for a movie. They are classical music (the same as "Cantina Band" is jazz music).

And about your first statement... The first deffinition of classical music is: All traditions (of music) associated with HIGH CULTURE as opposed to popular or folk forms.

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OK are we talking classical as in....western non pop music....starting a thousand years ago....

or classical as in 1700 and 1800s?

If the latter, Williams is not that kind of classical.

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Western-Classical music: high culture music (not folk, not pop).Includes all these different styles in it:-Medieval-Renaissance-Baroque-Classical-Romantic-20th century classical-Contemporary classicalJohn Williams has studied all these styles (as he is a classicaly trained composer), plus jazz music. He usually writes in the Romantic style, but it is still western-classical music (the same as Wagner, Mahler, Berlioz... they all were composers from the romantic period)I hope I explained myself :unsure:

OK are we talking classical as in....western non pop music....starting a thousand years ago....or classical as in 1700 and 1800s? If the latter, Williams is not that kind of classical.
That's why I said there are two deffinitions of classical music.
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Blumenkohl is correct. Though most of the film music discussed here is orchestral, there's a huge quanity of film music that isn't.

Axel F can never be catagorised as Classical.

I never said all film music is classical music. Blumenkohl is correct, film music includes all kind of music. But John Williams is almost always classical (except when he writes jazz -catch me if you can...-, lapti nek... :unsure:

Film music: the music used in a film. Can contain pop songs, electronic music, jazz music, classical music...

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Williams' concert music is "classical" music. That's what concert music by film composers is. As for the type of classical music, it's contemporary classical, which is defined as written post-1975. Or some is even 21st-century classical, a new definition for music written post 2000.

Music from the Classical era would be say, Haydn or Mozart, music written generally in the late 1700s.

Film music is just...film music. :unsure: Because it can be anything, jazz, pop, rock scores....a good deal of it (yay) happens to still be orchestral, which is influenced by western classical orchestral music.

It is kind of a hard definition though, I mean where do you put Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky? Because he's a very famous classical concert composer, sometimes it is lumped in with his classical work. It's still film music though (and great film music) to me, which just describes the medium it was written for.

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That's the problem. Saying film music is film music you're not defining a music style. It can have all kind of music.

Let's put it this way: listen to the Star Wars main title, without thinking what it was written for. Forget it is a soundtrack. Just hear the music, and tell me what kind of music is.

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I have not heard the latter, but can recommend the Colin Davis version with the Royal Concertgebouw (1974 recording, but still available on CD). He's recorded it since with the LSO too.
I have the much-lauded LSO version. It's good, and the lyrical parts really shine, but overall, I still prefer my trusty old Karajan recording. He doesn't phrase the lyrical bits as finely as Davis does, but his finale is bone-chilling.
Also, Film music is media music, not classical music.
Then what about Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream? Grieg's Peer Gynt? Any opera or ballet ever written?
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Okay, making it simple now:

Classical music as in classicist, is the idiom we think of when referring to what came after baroque and roccoco, which, putting it simply, would mean Haydn, Clementi, Mozart,etc., and the early to mid Beethoven.

Classical music as in classical humanistic art is all higher literature, philosophy, art and music up until modernism, when there occurs a separation between classical modernism, which is still rooted in a classical humanist tradition, and the avantgarde, explicitly modernistic break with tradition that led to conceptual art, art installations and performance art. Bacon is a classical modernist, as was Hindemith and Stravinsky and Schönberg. Warhol is a conceptual non-classical modernist, as are Terry Riley and Harry Partch.

John Williams writes in a classical tradition (which includes romanticism, which is a part of Western classical tradition, and most of the idioms of the first fifty years of the 20th century, as well as many of the post 1950's developments that have occured in that tradition).

Williams' craft is classical, his technique and main references are classical, regardless of whatever traditions he might play with at times. The same could be said for Rozsa, Korngold, Goldsmith, Waxman, Herrmann, and even Goldenthal.

Shore, Elfman, Newton Howard, and all the MV composers do not really belong to a classical tradition, but strictly to a film musical tradition. They do not have a classical training, and their craft is not classical, their technique is not classical.

Also, John Williams is not a jazz composer! His training was with Castelnuovo-Tedesco, who was one of pre-Mussolini Ialy's finest composer, sort of in between the aesthetics of Ravel and Prokofiev. The fact that Williams also played jazz is irrelevant; most of his output has nothing to do with jazz.

By that token, one would then absurdly have to claim that Gustav Holst was a dance hall composer, Brahms a composer of light music for brothels, etc.

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Okay, making it simple now:

Classical music as in classicist, is the idiom we think of when referring to what came after baroque and roccoco, which, putting it simply, would mean Haydn, Clementi, Mozart and the early to mid Beethoven.

Classical music as in classical humanistic art is all higher literature, philosophy, art and music up until modernism, when there occurs a separation between classical modernism, which is still rooted in a classical humanist tradition, and the avantgarde, explicitly modernistic break with tradition that led to conceptual art, art installations and performance art. Bacon is a classical modernist, as was Hindemith and Stravinsky and Schönberg. Warhol is a conceptual non-classical modernist, as is Terry Riley and Harry Partch.

John Williams writes in a classical tradition (which includes romanticism, which is a part of Western classical tradition, and most of the idioms of the first fifty years of the 20th century, as well as many of the post 1950's developments that have occured in that tradition).

Williams' craft is classical, his technique and main references are classical, regardless of whatever traditions he might play with at times. The same could be said for Rozsa, Korngold, Goldsmith, Waxman, Herrmann, and even Goldenthal.

Shore, Elfman, Newton Howard, and all the MV composers do not really belong to a classical tradition, but strictly to a film musical tradition. They do not have a classical training, and their craft is not classical, their technique is not classical.

Also, John Williams is not a jazz composer! His training was with Castenuovo-Tedesco, who was one of pre-Mussolini Ialy's finest composer, sort of in between the aesthetics of Ravel and Prokofiev. The fact that Williams also played jazz is irrelevant; most of his output has nothing to do with jazz.

By that token, one would then absurdly have to claim that Gustav Holst was a dance hall composer, Brahm a composer of light msic for brothels, etc.

Hats off... Perfectly explained. That sums up everithing.

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.
Also, Film music is media music, not classical music.
Then what about Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream? Grieg's Peer Gynt? Any opera or ballet ever written?

Marian, you are once again thinking of orchestral film music only.

They're far too event driven rather than introspective.

Which they have in common with film music. However the difference is that in ballet and opera, the music is the most important element, while film music takes on a far more supportive, even subliminal role.

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It has romantic elements in that it is extremely busy without clearly defined boundaries....but it sounds nothing like true romantic works.

Because it is not a true romantic composition. But it is really really far from jazz music.

Let's see:

-Accidentaly in love, from Schrek 2 soundtrack: can we consider it to be a pop song? Yes. Even if it was written for a movie.

-Star Wars Main Title: can we consider it to be a classical work? YES. Even if it was composed for a movie.

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I actually don't consider operas or ballets as genuine classical.

They're far too event driven rather than introspective.

Then you have a very strange perception of classical art! :unsure:

It has nothing to do with being non-event driven!

Actually, you could easily argue the opposite, considering the beginnings of that very tradition was the Greek dramas!

In that sense, opera would actually be the ultimate classical genre.

I don't think you can separate, and subsequently, you cannot rule out classically rooted film music either.

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So explain to me what makes a work classical.

The study of classical composers?

So if I study some classical composers and write some stave music, and throw in references to Holst, I'm writing classical music?

So Sting is a classical composer?

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No one has yet to explain to me the parameters of selecting classical as a genre.

Or could it be that 1000 years of musical sophistication has got us to the point where the rigid classification system for music no longer works?

No way! :unsure:

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So explain to me what makes a work classical.

The study of classical composers?

So if I study some classical composers and write some stave music, and throw in references to Holst, I'm writing classical music?

So Sting is a classical composer?

If Sting were to undergo years of study, building a thorough understanding of craft (as in harmony, counterpoint, orchestration,etc.), and thereby gaining more than a superficial understanding of that tradition, then, yes, he would be a classical composer. Perhaps a bad one. As it is, he is a good pop musician with a better than average sense of musicianship, no more, no less.

At best, he would have to be considered a kitsch composer, as would Paul McCartney. I also cosider most current film music kitsch.

You must study more than just some composers,and throw in a Holst quote or two, I'm afraid! :unsure:

It is a long, long process, and at its core, classical art is about a certain perception of reality, of history, and even ethics.

Classical art is about disciplining yourself, being humble, striving for perfection of craft, depth, truth and beauty (to put it a bit corny).

Very seriously, it is about wanting to have a deeper understanding of a language, and greater eloquence.

The classical ideal is the articulate.

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Some of you seem to arguing the concept of absolute music vs programatic music.

Some film scores are pop music, some film scores are Jazz music, and some film scores are classical music.

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.
Also, Film music is media music, not classical music.
Then what about Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream? Grieg's Peer Gynt? Any opera or ballet ever written?

Marian, you are once again thinking of orchestral film music only.

No, I'm thinking of orchestral film music *also*. My point was that "media music" isn't a classification which either in- or excludes classical music. And in the end, "classical music" has become blurry over the last decades, but taking into account its development over the centuries, you could probably even fit something like The Wall in there - i.e. a larger, consistent composition.

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  • 4 weeks later...

So I went and heard Sibelius's 2nd symphony.

Can anybody tell me why the second part - Tempo andante, ma rubato - was so familiar? (Especially the opening, after the plucking of the strings, or what's the term.)

I'm thinking I knew it from some film or so.

Or did some film composer rip it off perhaps?

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Yes it was great, I rather liked it.

I don't think it's Brainstorm though, didn't see that movie. Although it is possible that Horner ripped it off somewhere I guess.

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I did check Brainstorm in iTunes but I couldn't find that theme from the soundtrack.

I'll find it...

Next I'll check The Death Zone . I'm sure it's paranormal movie from 80's...

EDIT: I found The Death Zone trailer and there it was. Note to note rip-off of that beautiful theme.

If you haven't seen this movie , maybe it is used in some other film too...

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Sibelius' 2nd is one of the best, certainly the best ending to a symphony. I was present in the auditorium of the University of Helsinki when the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra played it. It was the orginal place of the first public performance of the symphony. I count it the best classical experience in my life. I almost could not sit still.

Long live Sibelius!

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Also, John Williams is not a jazz composer!

There is certainly a jazz influence in his music. Easy to hear in the voicings.

That depends on what voicings you refer to, and in what perspective you wish to perceive them.

Also, close-positioned maj7th chords, inverted #9 chords etc. also appear in the works of Prokofiev, Walton and a most 20th century American composers who concern(ed) themselves with tonality.

But I suppose the influence is there more blatantly in certain 50's, 60's and early 70's.

However, to label him a jazz composer is absurd.

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How did I guess that Steef would hijack this thread...

I just want to recommend a wonderful CD to everyone. Benjamin Zander's recording of Mahler's 3rd Symphony is absolutely fantastic. He went to Mahler's original score to use the largest orchestra I've ever heard play this piece. About 8 percussionists, post horn, massive brass section etc etc. There's a bonus 3rd disc in which Zander discusses the piece and defends his tempi and other artistic choices made when approaching this work. So far Zander has recorded 6 of the Mahler symphonies this way (with a discussion disc, and adhering to the composer's tempi), but I think his recording of the 3rd is the highlight.

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So I went and heard Sibelius's 2nd symphony.

Can anybody tell me why the second part - Tempo andante, ma rubato - was so familiar? (Especially the opening, after the plucking of the strings, or what's the term.)

Now go hear his violin concerto and recognise another familiar motif. :unsure:

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EDIT: I found The Death Zone trailer and there it was. Note to note rip-off of that beautiful theme.

If you haven't seen this movie , maybe it is used in some other film too...

Yes, yes!

I have the film and the original soundtrack, that's it! Thank you very, very much! What a relief to find it, it kept bugging me :unsure:

It's indeed note to note, and it's indeed beautiful. Well, I guess it deserved some 'expansion' anyway ;)

Now go hear his violin concerto and recognise another familiar motif.

Hehe one at a time.

I also noticed that Bernstein borrowed a bit from Brahms's Concerto for Piano no 2 (Andante) for The Age of Innocence.

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http://www.furious.com/perfect/classicalversusfilmmusic.html

CLASSICAL Vs. FILM MUSIC Article

"The deaths of Jerry Goldsmith (July 21), David Raksin (August 9), and Elmer Bernstein (August 19) earlier this year was a major news story. News of the "end of an era" echoed across various news sources, very similar to how musicologists interpret the 1750 death of J. S. Bach as the end of the Baroque era."

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I love me some classical music. I'll list some composers that I enjoy a lot, and a few pieces of theirs that I adore. No particular order, just how they come to my mnd.

R. Strauss - Also Sprach Zarathustra, Ein Heldenleben (A Heroic Life), Tod und Verklärung (Death and Transfiguration)

Dvorak - Symphonies 7-9, The Water Goblin, Slavonic Dances Op. 46, Stabat Mater, Cello Concerto, Violin Concerto

Bruck - Symphony No. 4 (Romantic)

Beethoven - Symphonies (especially 4, 7, 9), Piano Concerto No. 4

Mendelssohn - Hebrides Overture, Violin Concerto, Symphony No. 4

Rachmaninov - Variations on a Theme of Paganini, Symphony No. 2, Piano Concerti 2 and 3, Vespers

Copland - Appalachian Spring, Symphony No. 3

Mahler - Symphony No. 2 (one of the best pieces of music ever composed)

Dukas – Sorcerer’s Apprentice, La Peri, Symphony in C Major

Wagner – Tannhauser, Das Rheingold

Brahms – Symphony No. 2, Violin Concerto

Elgar – Cello Concerto, Enigma Variations

Grieg – Piano Concerto, Peer Gynt suites 1 & 2, Notturno and many other Lyric Pieces

Tchaikovsky – Romeo and Juliet, 1812 Overture

Verdi – Requiem

Barber – First Essay or Orchestra

Korngold – Symphony in F Sharp, Violin Concerto

Prokofiev – Piano Concerto No. 2, Romeo and Juliet

Rodrigo – Concierto de Aranjuez

Smetana – Ma Vlast

There are tons of other pieces and composers, but that’s a start.

Tim

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"The deaths of Jerry Goldsmith (July 21), David Raksin (August 9), and Elmer Bernstein (August 19) earlier this year was a major news story. News of the "end of an era" echoed across various news sources, very similar to how musicologists interpret the 1750 death of J. S. Bach as the end of the Baroque era."

Uhm yeah, there were brief notices on Goldsmith's death in a few local newspapers... and those got some of the facts wrong.

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I'm not the biggest Bartok fan, but I'm listening to the "The Miraculous Mandarin" suite from his ballet, which is about 25 minutes. I'm sorta using it as background music as I surf the web, but it sounds pretty good so I'll eventually have to sit down and really listen to it.

I'm also listening to a bit of Ned Rorem, who is an American composer. His symphonies are interesting. I'm also giving Debussy's Nocturnes a spin.

Tim

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