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JW reusing music


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I noticed several years ago (before I was a part of this forum) as I was watching HP and the Chamber of Secrets, I noticed something. In the part where Malfoy and Harry are flying around during the Quidditch match, and they go sort of under the stands, JW reuses some music from Attack of the Clones. The music is from "Zam The Assasain and the Chase Through Couroscant," and begins at 2:33, but is heard several more times throughout the cue.

Of course, JW can hardly be blamed, since this was in 2002, and he was trying to juggle Chamber of Secrets, Attack of the Clones, Minority Report, and Catch Me If You Can, but still, just a small note.

This may have been discussed before, and if it has, feel free to lock it. I did a search in this forum, and I didn't see any good results, so as far as I know, this has never been discussed here.

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Yeah he does it a lot. So does every other composer.

I was just listening to The Towering Inferno per the other discussion and realizing just how much of the material in that score I felt like I had heard "before" in later scores. Like Star Wars.

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I don't think any musician actively sits down and goes "Hmmm how can I rip myself off today?"

When I was a technical director or texture arist, I would get CGI scenes to light or textures to create and I would often catch myself setting up lighting rigs that I had used previously on other commercials, with only small differences. Or I would go about creating a texture much in the same way I had made another one. I had to actively make an effort to try different things in order not to end up repeating the same ideas. Even so it happened.

Or when I was writing editorials and news articles I had to make sure that I wasn't reusing the same phrases in every article or editorial. It just happens, it's what naturally comes to you even when you are trying very hard to be innovative and fresh.

It just happens. It doesn't mean you're a hack or detract from your skill.

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I don't think any musician actively sits down and goes "Hmmm how can I rip myself off today?"

When I was a technical director or texture arist, I would get CGI scenes to light or textures to create and I would often catch myself setting up lighting rigs that I had used previously on other commercials, with only small differences. Or I would go about creating a texture much in the same way I had made another one. I had to actively make an effort to try different things in order not to end up repeating the same ideas. Even so it happened.

It just happens. It doesn't mean you're a hack.

Oh...okay, thanks.

And I never said he was a hack ;)

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As it has been said many times before, it is quite likely that particular scene from COS was scored by William Ross.

that's exactly where the Ross debate becomes illogical.Ross was hired to adapt music from the first film,and at the very least try to provide original cues where it applies .Why on earth would he adapt a cue from Attack of the Clones?

Unless Williams said...go ahead,here's my written score for AotC if you need more material.

K.M.

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I'm sure I've heard the seperatist theme before, but I don't know it by name. Which tracks does it appear in?

All over, mostly the Kamino cues (which are on track 1 on the OST I think, it's been so long since I've listened to it unedited) and the second half of Return to Tatooine.

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I'm sure I've heard the seperatist theme before, but I don't know it by name. Which tracks does it appear in?

All over, mostly the Kamino cues (which are on track 1 on the OST I think, it's been so long since I've listened to it unedited) and the second half of Return to Tatooine.

There are many different motifs in the second half of Return to Tatooine. Does it start at 5:52?

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As it has been said many times before, it is quite likely that particular scene from COS was scored by William Ross.

that's exactly where the Ross debate becomes illogical.Ross was hired to adapt music from the first film,and at the very least try to provide original cues where it applies .Why on earth would he adapt a cue from Attack of the Clones?

Unless Williams said...go ahead,here's my written score for AotC if you need more material.

K.M.

Or maybe Williams added that particular AOTC-ish phrase over a cue that Ross wrote for logistic reasons. Or maybe to substitute a less effective idea.

It's pretty safe to assume that Williams didn't consciously set out to re-use the music from Attack of the Clones, or we might as well look for Sean's Theme or "Learning the Robes" in the movie.

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Well, my thoughts...1) Composers do reuse and/or rework fragments of their own music, that's not new. However, in most cases this is completely unintentional. The similarities you can find in two different cues are normally just the natural consecuence of the composer's writing style. JW likes descending triplet thirds, so Hook's Neverland and Prologue theme and Across the Stars have similarities, but they are not intentional. They are not even rip-offs. 2) In this case... It is obvious that both the Separatist motif-Malfoy motif and the Chase Through Coruscant-the Quidditch game are clear rip-offs. And I'm sure that it was Williams, reusing old material because he had no time to write anything else. But it is a conscious move, the Chase Thorugh Coruscant rip-off cannot be just coincidence. I don't want to start the discussion again, but the score of Chamber of Secrets as it appears in the movie, is a complete mess. 20 second fragments of new music together with 30 seconds of music from the first movie and then another 30 seconds of "adapted" music from the firts movie... Most themes are not even used... (and a brilliant sound mix ;) )

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When i saw the movie a year ago, just to see this scene, i was expecting to hear the coruscant music. Note by note.

What i found?

You guys exaggerate a lot.

It was more or less just a repetition of 'Zam the assasin' passage (1:28-1:40).

Anyway the mix is so low you can hardly hear it well :/

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I'm sure I've heard the seperatist theme before, but I don't know it by name. Which tracks does it appear in?

All over, mostly the Kamino cues (which are on track 1 on the OST I think, it's been so long since I've listened to it unedited) and the second half of Return to Tatooine.

There are many different motifs in the second half of Return to Tatooine. Does it start at 5:52?

I think it is - it's almost the same as a short brass motif in the last scene in CoS with Dumbledore, Malfoy and Harry ("Let us hope Mr Potter will always be here to save the day"). Sounds a bit like a moment in Seven Years in Tibet too now I think about it.

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The texture is similar, but the music is actually quite different.

These dizzying figures are simply a Williams archetype for flight.

I don't think so. I don't pretend to see similarities and rip-offs everywhere, but in this case it is pretty clear. not because of the dizzying figures, but because there are same bars (brass chords) that are the same, in the same place, same pitch... And considering that the rest of the quidditch game contains tracked music, I think it was done in a rush.

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The texture is similar, but the music is actually quite different.

These dizzying figures are simply a Williams archetype for flight.

I don't think so. I don't pretend to see similarities and rip-offs everywhere, but in this case it is pretty clear. not because of the dizzying figures, but because there are same bars (brass chords) that are the same, in the same place, same pitch... And considering that the rest of the quidditch game contains tracked music, I think it was done in a rush.

They are very similar, rhythmically, but here is the difference:

The AotC example has winds and strings playing groups of G#-G (B#-C# lower voice+static E's mid voice) over a C#m/B# horn chord, the overall tonality being C#minor with added B# as well as A#.

The CoS example has the same rhythm, but the pitches are different; over a Bb diad with an added Cb, winds play F#-F (C#-D lower voice), the overall harmonic scheme being a double octatonic tonality (Bb octatonic+ F octatonic). Also, the orchestration is different, with the "2 16th notes followed by an eighth rest"-motif also being played by trumpets and violins in AotC, and only winds+ string trills in CoS.

(Actually, he motif could have been notated as a 16th note followed by a dotted eighth,the fast tempo makes it rather difficult to distinguish)

But this rhythmic idea also occurs in the main titles for "Lost in Space", as an accompanimental figure in the middle section of "Fawkes the Phoenix", etc.

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Yeah he does it a lot. So does every other composer.

I was just listening to The Towering Inferno per the other discussion and realizing just how much of the material in that score I felt like I had heard "before" in later scores. Like Star Wars.

how is that possible, John went into the future and stole his own music, is that what you are saying. There's nothing in TI that John borrowed extensively for later use in other music.

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The texture is similar, but the music is actually quite different.

These dizzying figures are simply a Williams archetype for flight.

I don't think so. I don't pretend to see similarities and rip-offs everywhere, but in this case it is pretty clear. not because of the dizzying figures, but because there are same bars (brass chords) that are the same, in the same place, same pitch... And considering that the rest of the quidditch game contains tracked music, I think it was done in a rush.

They are very similar, rhythmically, but here is the difference:

The AotC example has winds and strings playing groups of G#-G (B#-C# lower voice+static E's mid voice) over a C#m/B# horn chord, the overall tonality being C#minor with added B# as well as A#.

The CoS example has the same rhythm, but the pitches are different; over a Bb diad with an added Cb, winds play F#-F (C#-D lower voice), the overall harmonic scheme being a double octatonic tonality (Bb octatonic+ F octatonic). Also, the orchestration is different, with the "2 16th notes followed by an eighth rest"-motif also being played by trumpets and violins in AotC, and only winds+ string trills in CoS.

(Actually, he motif could have been notated as a 16th note followed by a dotted eighth,the fast tempo makes it rather difficult to distinguish)

But this rhythmic idea also occurs in the main titles for "Lost in Space", as an accompanimental figure in the middle section of "Fawkes the Phoenix", etc.

You are right I guess, I don't have the extended CD and you can hear the music clearly in the DVD. However, they are very similar.

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The texture is similar, but the music is actually quite different.

These dizzying figures are simply a Williams archetype for flight.

Quite true. Williams has never, ever, written a piece that is too derivative. He has never borrowed from other works in a rush. He only uses "archetypes"!

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The texture is similar, but the music is actually quite different.

These dizzying figures are simply a Williams archetype for flight.

Quite true. Williams has never, ever, written a piece that is too derivative. He has never borrowed from other works in a rush. He only uses "archetypes"!

This is not really an issue for me, personally.

All great prolific artists repeat themselves to a greater or lesser extent. Look at Bach, Mozart or Haydn!

I believe in craft, and in constantly striving for perfection, which means you always rethread certain types of terrain eventually.

I am more interested in truth, beauty and eloquence, than only originality.

Originality for its own sake is uninteresting, easy, and one of the most boring aspects of the modernist aesthetic.

It alone can never be a measure of quality.

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The texture is similar, but the music is actually quite different.

These dizzying figures are simply a Williams archetype for flight.

Quite true. Williams has never, ever, written a piece that is too derivative. He has never borrowed from other works in a rush. He only uses "archetypes"!

This is not really an issue for me, personally.

All great prolific artists repeat themselves to a greater or lesser extent. Look at Bach, Mozart or Haydn!

I believe in craft, and in constantly striving for perfection, which means you always rethread certain types of terrain eventually.

I am more interested in truth, beauty and eloquence, than only originality.

Originality for its own sake is uninteresting, easy, and one of the most boring aspects of the modernist aesthetic.

It alone can never be a measure of quality.

Uh... Yeah, I agree, but Williams (or Ross or an orchestrator) was clearly in a time crunch and had to pull the material from Clones to get the Quidditch scene scored in time. That's the only issue here.

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Well the what the hell do you do when you're on a time crunch? Have you ever been on a real world time crunch?

Do you pop a brand new innovative idea on a real world time crunch? Ever had to meet a deadline by staying awake for 48 hours straight?

Or do you fall back on what you know works?

There is no issue. It's just a bunch of people who think you can cast a spell and come up with a fresh brilliant idea when 20 parties are riding your ass to get something done by 8:00 am the next morning.

You can't say anyone involved (Williams/Ross/Orchestrator) is a thief or incompetent or creatively defunct because they simply did not have time.

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You can't say anyone involved (Williams/Ross/Orchestrator) is a thief or incompetent or creatively defunct because they simply did not have time.

hehehe... that's the big problem. William Ross HAD time to score the movie properly. Williams began working on the movie in June i think, the same as with the first movie. They recorded both soundtracks in september. Ross had enough time to do a decent score.

If it was written by Williams in the last minute to substitute something Ross did, then he had literally no time, and it's logical that he wrote the sequence "based one" Chase Through Coruscan".

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I don't think even he notices that he's doing it.

There's people out there who repeat ideas/thoughts/words without realizing it...thanks to their wicked unconscious/subconscious.

He admitted to repeating the danger motif, as a way to "tie all his work together".

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The danger motif I don't have a problem with. It's just a short sequence that acts as a sort of musical signature for Horner.

What I have a problem with is copying his whole pieces (Bicentennial Man/Beautiful Mind), or even worse, copying other composers' whole pieces (Honey I Shrunk the Kids).

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