If JW comes up with REALLY complex pieces . . .

[Josh500 1,615]

. . . do you think some orchestra members groan inwardly?

I can imagine some of the musicians going, "Damn! Maestro Williams only gets to write and conduct this, but we have to play it! How the hell are we gonna do this? What is he thinking?"

I've read that some percussion-heavy pieces from The Lost World were so complex (I think Sarah's Rescue was mentioned) that they had to play it over and over again, until they finally got it right! And I imagine The Mine Car Chase or Hedwig's Theme would be a similiar arduous playing experience.

I'm not talking about ordinary pieces (or even ordinarily complex pieces), but ESPCIALLY complex pieces that at first sight might appear like no mortal musician could ever play! And you have to remember that most of these players have to play them right away, not after rehearsing for hours!

What do you think?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I'm sure the piccolo players were not best pleased when they got their parts for Mine Car Chase!

[Ollie 1,059]

If Williams manages to write anything as exciting as TOD I'll eat my shoe.

[Josh500 1,615]

If Williams manages to write anything as exciting as TOD I'll eat my shoe.

TOD is not exciting, it's the end of all excitement!

[Datameister 2,042]

The extended double-tonguing brass passages in ROTLA's "In the Idol's Temple" also come to mind, as well as the quick rhythmic horn figures in "Fighting with Grievous." Honestly, though, I don't think the players mind too much. While this sort of material is definitely a technical challenge, it's not as if they've never played anything of that level of difficulty. Try studying Stravinsky conductor's scores, for instance.

And you have to remember that most of these players have to play them right away, not after rehearsing for hours!

Well, they do get some rehearsal. They aren't brought in and forced to record while sight-reading; they're given a few days of rehearsal, typically. That also gives them time to practice at home if necessary.

I've read that some percussion-heavy pieces from The Lost World were so complex (I think Sarah's Rescue was mentioned) that they had to play it over and over again, until they finally got it right!

That's what rehearsal is.

I can't directly relate to players of that caliber, since my own virtuosity is seriously lacking, but I've interacted with professional-level musicians and many of them just take such passages...well, like professionals. They methodically attack the difficult parts and usually achieve good results pretty quickly, thanks to their years of experience.

[A24 4,331]

I've heard that the musicians sitting in these world-class orchestras play almost everything without any effort. And Williams is not exactly the most complex composer out there.

[robthehand 3]

I shouldn't imagine they get it perfect the first time, but I can't see the world's top musicians having too much difficulty with that sort of thing.

I've heard that orchestras used to struggle with Korngold's tempos (tempi?).

[TownerFan 4,983]

I've heard that the musicians sitting in these world-class orchestras play almost everything without any effort. And Williams is not exactly the most complex composer out there.

Surely he isn't the most complex, but he's really demanding at the least. I had a talk with some players and conductors who performed Williams' music and they all say the same thing: Williams's music is so finely crafted that it's very natural to play.

L.A. and London session musicians are among the best in the world, so I guess they're never scared by a demanding part. Instead, it's very likely they enjoy very much to play music which calls for the best of their performing skills. I must say you can hear the happiness and the joy of them in many Williams scores. I could only imagine for example the fun the woodwind players had when they performed selections from Hook... or the joy of the LSO brass section when they received their Star Wars parts. Sure, maybe some of them were initially a bit scared, but in the end it's so gratifying to see that a great composer you respect put down a very demanding part just for you.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

"You can write this John but sure you cant play it!"

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I've always thought complex pieces were the most fun.

[Josh500 1,615]

I've always thought complex pieces were the most fun.

I'm not talking about simply complex pieces--that's just a challenge to these professional players. I'm talking about really complex pieces, the kind that make you feel like your arm is falling off when you're done.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I wonder how long it will take this time until this takes a nasty turn ...

[Josh500 1,615]

Three . . . two . . . one. Here we go!

[gkgyver 1,645]

And here we go ... what the bleep do you know which pieces are complex?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I think there should be a distinction between "complex" and "challenging to perform," where Josh is referring to the latter.

Ray Barnsbury

[Morlock 11]

Indeed.

[Red 75]

"Battle of the Heroes" is not a very complex piece, but it is a pain to play (viola, that is).

[Marcus 390]

And here we go ... what the bleep do you know which pieces are complex?

Well, there are many types of complexities, but we seem here mostly to refer to a "surface-complexity", which is to say a complexity of texture and technically challenging writing for instruments.

It should be said that Williams' writing is extremely idiomatic, which makes even his most demanding passages not only feasible, but also pleasurable and fun for musicians. It is a joy when a composer shows his love and respect for the performers by truly understanding how their instruments work, and what really makes them sound great.

This is where Williams truly excels so much more than any other film composer, and indeed more than most contemporary classical composers as well:

His instrumental writing is so expertly executed, so beautifully crafted and intelligent, that it inspires not only fantastic sonic results, but also a satisfying experience from the point of view of the performer.

Another prominent aspect of complexity is the pure musical content: Williams writes in a harmonic and melodic idiom that is fairly challenging, by tonal standards. A different way of putting it, is to say that he has a very rich musical vocabulary (whereas film composers in general have a very limited vocabulary).

There is also architectural and structural complexity to Williams' work, and finally a contextual complexity, which all contributes to Williams' music having a greater sense of "seriosity", a greater depth, if you will, all of which will tend to have performers accept the challenges that face them more readily, seeing that the musical mind that governed these demands, is one that truly understands what it will take on the part of the performer.

Williams' writing is, however, never unecessarily difficult. And the results make the effort more than worthwhile.

Granted, there are tons and tons of more technically complex music out there, but quite a lot of it is (sometimes intentionally) often very unidiomatic, and far, far less effective.

[indy4 155]

General Grevious sure sounds complex enough.

If Williams manages to write anything as exciting as TOD I'll eat my shoe.

Then start eating. You see, a year or two after Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom came out, a movie called Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade came out, perhaps you've heard of it....

[TownerFan 4,983]

It should be said that Williams' writing is extremely idiomatic, which makes even his most demanding passages not only feasible, but also pleasurable and fun for musicians. It is a joy when a composer shows his love and respect for the performers by truly understanding how their instruments work, and what really makes them sound great.

This is where Williams truly excels so much more than any other film composer, and indeed more than most contemporary classical composers as well:

His instrumental writing is so expertly executed, so beautifully crafted and intelligent, that it inspires not only fantastic sonic results, but also a satisfying experience from the point of view of the performer.

Totally agree! That's what I was trying to say in my post, but you've said it much better than me

[gkgyver 1,645]

And you all walked into the trap ...

forgetting a smiley can be lethal.

[Ollie 1,059]

General Grevious sure sounds complex enough.

If Williams manages to write anything as exciting as TOD I'll eat my shoe.

Then start eating. You see, a year or two after Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom came out, a movie called Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade came out, perhaps you've heard of it....

Sorry I don't live in a fantasy past life where Williams still writes like he did 20 years ago.

Getting back to the subject I've heard stories about orchestras struggling to play some of Goldsmith's compositions due to the complex material.

[indy4 155]

General Grevious sure sounds complex enough.

If Williams manages to write anything as exciting as TOD I'll eat my shoe.

Then start eating. You see, a year or two after Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom came out, a movie called Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade came out, perhaps you've heard of it....

Sorry I don't live in a fantasy past life where Williams still writes like he did 20 years ago.

You're right.....he's writing better than he did 20 years ago.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I prefer "Jazzy" John Williams (my nickname for him) over a lot of his work. Cinderella Liberty and M-Squad are spectacular!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

You're right.....he's writing better than he did 20 years ago.

No. Not really.

[Ollie 1,059]

Like I said I don't live in some fantasy world.

Apparently some people do.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I was right after all, didn't take long.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams is just as good if not better, the only reason most people think he's doing worse is because he's not doing stand-out spectacular adventure themes anymore. This is the serious side of John Williams.

[Datameister 2,042]

I was right after all, didn't take long.

I should have known how futile it was to hope you'd be wrong.

[Ollie 1,059]

John Williams is just as good if not better, the only reason most people think he's doing worse is because he's not doing stand-out spectacular adventure themes anymore. This is the serious side of John Williams.

So don't go expecting a score written in the same exciting style that Raiders, TOD and to an extent TLC.

You're going to get the current version of John Williams.

[Henry B 50]

John Williams is just as good if not better, the only reason most people think he's doing worse is because he's not doing stand-out spectacular adventure themes anymore. This is the serious side of John Williams.

I'm pretty sure Images, Close Encounters, Monsignor, etc. represent a "serious" side of Williams as well.

[indy4 155]

John Williams is just as good if not better, the only reason most people think he's doing worse is because he's not doing stand-out spectacular adventure themes anymore. This is the serious side of John Williams.

So don't go expecting a score written in the same exciting style that Raiders, TOD and to an extent TLC.

You're going to get the current version of John Williams.

But honestly, what adventure type scores has JW scored recently? War of the World's would be the closest, and that would be worse if it had the same type of fun, light-hearted adventure mode that Indy had.

His work may not be as iconic, but that's just because the films he's doing don't require as iconic of a score. I mean, Star Wars and Minority Report were both sci-fi adventures, but could you really imagine a big, brass, bold fanfare for Minority Report? It just wouldn't fit. He's become much more varied - who else could pull off great scores to the prequels, Potters, Munich, Memoirs, CMIYC, A.I., and more, and make them all good scores. If he was scoring a movie such as POTC, we could expect an iconic score. But the fact is, his movies don't require these types.

You could argue that Potters did require those, but I think they are the most iconic score in the 2000s.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

John Williams is just as good if not better, the only reason most people think he's doing worse is because he's not doing stand-out spectacular adventure themes anymore. This is the serious side of John Williams.

That ranks among the silliest comments I've seen posted on here. Williams wrote serious music throughout his entire career, and while it is not his primary strength to dabble in heavy underscore, he did outstanding work in the 70s 80s and early 90s. He did it again one more time in Prisoner of Azkaban. But other than that, the worst of his works in the last 10 or 15 years couldn't touch the worst of his works with a 30 meter baton. Even the best of his works, excepting 3 (TLW, PoA, TPM) works are extremely shabby, all reiterations of the dull underscore materials we've already heard before.

How many times can we have "rolling strings" from Nixon to denote tension or tragedy in a movie?

At least Horner and Herrmann and Goldsmith had/have sense enough to copy the best of their past works.

But the fact is, his movies don't require these types.

I smell a crock of...yeah.

Go watch a movie like the Godfather. Go watch Requiem for a Dream. Go watch Vertigo. Iconic scores, through and through, and hardly "the type of movies" that would "need iconic scores"

To say that just because a movie isn't bombastic it doesn't need an iconic score...is the next silliest comment I've seen around here. It's apologetic nonsense.

[indy4 155]

Go watch a movie like the Godfather. Go watch Requiem for a Dream. Go watch Vertigo. Iconic scores, through and through, and hardly "the type of movies" that would "need iconic scores"

To say that just because a movie isn't bombastic it doesn't need an iconic score...is the next silliest comment I've seen around here. It's apologetic nonsense.

Those are not iconic scores. I don't know anybody who could tell me what movie they're from after hearing some of their music.

[Ollie 1,059]

Go watch a movie like the Godfather. Go watch Requiem for a Dream. Go watch Vertigo. Iconic scores, through and through, and hardly "the type of movies" that would "need iconic scores"

To say that just because a movie isn't bombastic it doesn't need an iconic score...is the next silliest comment I've seen around here. It's apologetic nonsense.

Those are not iconic scores. I don't know anybody who could tell me what movie they're from after hearing some of their music.

You obviously don't know enough people. There are plenty of people who could pick out Rota's Godfather theme and Herrmann's music from Vertigo.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

And probably more people who could pick out the Requiem for a Dream music than most of the film music output in the last decade.

Don't believe me? You haven't been to any forums with endless people asking for "Requiem of a Dream sheet music plz!!!". It's up there with PotC in recognition by "everyday" people.

[Ollie 1,059]

Now Requiem For A Dream would be one I wouldn't know.

[Red 75]

"Requiem for a Dream" has become extremely popular. It's practically the modern "Adagio for Strings".

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I never said Williams never did serious work before. But his 80's days were prime for iconic adventure themes, which he no longer does this time around. Everyone here is usually comparing the 80's to now when talking about which Williams is better.

"Requiem for a Dream" has become extremely popular. It's practically the modern "Adagio for Strings".

Requiem For A Dream is only popular because of its over-use in trailers. No one knows who the f**k Clint Mansell is.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Oooh subtly changing one's argument...the sign of fallacy!

Juicy!

[Frosty 0]

Well, they do get some rehearsal. They aren't brought in and forced to record while sight-reading; they're given a few days of rehearsal, typically. That also gives them time to practice at home if necessary.

They do NOT get the music ahead of time. They will sight read at the session, rehearse and then record. They might record a piece 6 or 7 times. Most of the time they get it in 3 or 4 attempts, but there is also splicing and such and pick-ups where you might start in the middle of a piece and record to the end. Most of these musicians are getting upwards of $250-300 an hour to record these scores. Union regulations require a minimum of one 3-hour session. Since most scores have an hour or more of music, and you might get 8-12 minutes of music per day of recording, you can see how long it takes to record a score, but you also want to keep your costs down. Obviously the level of difficulty can vary, but 100% of the time you won't see these musicians practice the music before hand because they are busy. Most of these players are recording every day on various projects, so they don't have the time to practice new music.

These players are PHENOMENAL!!! They can sight-read new music with 90-95% accuracy the first time! Thats why they get the gigs. First call Hollywood musicians can play rings around an average symphony-orchestra player. Plus the fact that they might not play with the same ensemble with every project, sometimes a different ensemble within the same project. If you look at the players used in some soundtracks, you might end up with more players per section than normal; not because that many players were used a a particular cue (although it is possible), but because you have different people sitting in on different days.

Short story long, Hollywood musicians will make your eyes fall out because of their musical and technical ability.

The LSO is one of the best sight-reading orchestras in the world. The thing that makes them sound phenomenal is the fact that they play together each day as an ensemble. Most Hollywood orchestras vary. Although it might be subtle, you can hear the difference between the two.

Frosty

[Datameister 2,042]

Are you sure about this, Frosty? I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the world of film score recording itself, so I could be mistaken. You seem very familiar with the process--do you work in this field?

[Marcus 390]

Are you sure about this, Frosty? I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the world of film score recording itself, so I could be mistaken. You seem very familiar with the process--do you work in this field?

There is no time for rehearsal in this field.

In film music, music preparation (and often composition as well) will not be completed until the first day of recording (often even during recording), so sight-reading is how it's done. Read (as in run through), record, and record again till satisfactory result is achieved.

These players (Hollywood studio musicians) are the best in the world.

Period.

[Datameister 2,042]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the info, guys!

::appreciation for studio orchestra musicians increases even more::

[Damo 0]

I was wondering if John William might even do a grand version for any of the themes from Indiana jones like he did with The thrown room for Star Wars Revenge of the Sith End credits...

[Datameister 2,042]

I hope not, for two reasons:

1. This has already been done to death on multiple rerecording albums. Honestly, I don't need to hear another fundamentally identical rerecording of the Raiders' March, even though I love the piece.

2. This gives them an excuse to put less new material on the OST. There was so much other good NEW material that the extended end credits replaced on the ROTS OST. I'd rather not see that incident repeated.

[publicist 4,643]

I was wondering if John William might even do a grand version for any of the themes from Indiana jones like he did with The thrown room for Star Wars Revenge of the Sith End credits...

Let's hope not. Another 13 minutes wasted on a new album....

[Damo 0]

I hope not, for two reasons:

1. This has already been done to death on multiple rerecording albums. Honestly, I don't need to hear another fundamentally identical rerecording of the Raiders' March, even though I love the piece.

2. This gives them an excuse to put less new material on the OST. There was so much other good NEW material that the extended end credits replaced on the ROTS OST. I'd rather not see that incident repeated.

Proven a valid point there for the Original Soundtrack Albums. Not just ROTS. But for any movie like what they did for Mischief Managed in POA. I don't really like it either. They don't need to repeat things, considering we can manually repeat the one track ourselves as many times as we want. It a waste to repeat the same thing over and over on more then one track!

Anyway John Williams is known for concert suite for the End Credits on OST...

[indy4 155]

I hope not, for two reasons:

1. This has already been done to death on multiple rerecording albums. Honestly, I don't need to hear another fundamentally identical rerecording of the Raiders' March, even though I love the piece.

2. This gives them an excuse to put less new material on the OST. There was so much other good NEW material that the extended end credits replaced on the ROTS OST. I'd rather not see that incident repeated.

The best case would be if they released the complete Indy 4 soundtrack, with a newly arranged Raiders March.

indy4 - who knows this will not happen

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The best case would be if they released the complete Indy 4 soundtrack, with a newly arranged Raiders March.

It'll be a 2-cd set and be released along with the 2-disk sets of the original trilogy. With new liner notes, photos from the recording sessions, and a ticket to have lunch with Mr Williams at a restaurant of your choice! Well, we can dream can't we?