Conservatism in film music

[nicholas 1]

There was an interesting article by Norman Lebrecht in yesterday's London Evening Standard. He is a highly regarded music critic in the UK and is very influential in contemporary classical music circles. The article was about Korngold's fall from favour and eventual rejection by the 'serious' musical community when "Hollywood success had blighted his high-brow reputation."

To quote: "The line [Korngold] crossed remained inviolate until the past decade when, facing audience crisis, orchestras took up the Steven Spielberg scores of John Williams and the Lord of the Rings suite by Howard Shore ... Yet listening to current movie scores (Patrick Doyle's fine work, for instance, for the forthcoming Sleuth) you realise how little the art of movie composing has advanced since Korngold gave up in 1946, how struck directors have become in the expectations of action and emotion that he cultivated, major themes for love, minor for loss.

"Korngold ... richly deserves to be welcomed back to the concert hall. But he deserves even more to be recognised as a pioneer of an allied art, an art that now cries out for a new Korngold to rejuvenate its methodology. The time has come to erase the line between movie and conert music, to encourage the likes of John Adams, Thomas Ades and Mark Anthony Turnage to try their hand at lifting film tracks out of the Korngold groove and into 21st-century modalities."

It sounds to me as if Mr Lebrecht is somewhat misinformed about John Williams. For all his clear intelligence, he seems to only have been listening to Star Wars. Or do you agree with his implication - that Williams, and most film composers, are hopelessly stuck in the past?

[Jeshopk 8]

Film music has always included the most modern techniques, but unlike concert music, film music never went through a period where old styles were discarded by modern composers. This is not saying film music was stuck in the past, but that concert music was hopelessly flung forward by the guardians of 'Originality'. We got some interesting sounds out of that, but it was almost a scientific field rather than an artform for some time. Planet of the Apes could only utilize serialism because the film called for a desolate and alien coldness. As Herrmann said, you can use the most avante garde techniques out there as long as it serves the drama of the film. I don't know if this guy is suggesting that modernism has some sort of hidden code in it that there's a 'modern' equivalent to all the feelings invoked by Romanticism, but John Adams himself would deny that methinks.

You can't reinvent the wheel when it comes to the link between music and emotion. For now, scores like AI and Titus are as close as they will come to sounding like modern concert music. And let's look at Altered States - basically a horror score which would not imply that emotion on the concert stage. Film music is about emotion, but concert composers are often trying to describe something else entirely with their music - like 'media noise'. Takemitsu described dream like states, but used his signature 'dream' sound to convey suspense and disorientation in "Rising Sun."

John Williams works very modern concert stage sounds into most of his scores, but only at the moments where it supports the drama. When we see the mechanical beast that is Grievous accompanied by all those "random notes" as so many tune lovers have put it on these boards - it gives a feeling of cold, mechanical, relentlessness, mindless, etc. Basically, that is one of the few feelings modern music has found new ways of effectively expressing.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I can't really read much into this concerning this man's opinion of John Williams.

[King Mark 2,924]

Mr Lebrecht,i know that name.

i think he bashed Williams in another article a few years ago

[nicholas 1]

He seems to be associating "low brow" with Hollywood, and including Williams in that generalisation.

Of course, I do realise that Star Wars wasn't a Spielberg film!!!

[pixie_twinkle 44]

It sounds to me as if Mr Lebrecht is somewhat misinformed about John Williams. For all his clear intelligence, he seems to only have been listening to Star Wars. Or do you agree with his implication - that Williams, and most film composers, are hopelessly stuck in the past?

I think that is fairly obvious, yes. And I agree! But I wouldn't use the word "Hopelessly". Williams has always written in a 1930s/40s style, mixing large scale romanticism with a slightly jazzier approach. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's glorious music, it doesn't have to push boundaries and forge new musical frontiers. That's not the nature of John Williams' style.

Danny Elfman's music is more obviously contemporary than Williams because of his use of pop and certain minimalist ideas. Even so, pop and minimalist could be seen as being 30 years old by now as well.

[Datameister 1,394]

I understand where he's coming from, and I agree that most film music has stagnated lately...but not Williams. While his recent scores lack some of the "iconic" edge that some of his earlier hits had--ultimate hummability, high-profile films, material he'd never written before--I'm with the group of listeners who really enjoy his recent efforts, too. They are different. I do like them. In a way, though, they do demonstrate to me the limited effectiveness of what Lebrecht is suggesting. You can't just flop the idea of musical emotion on its head and hope everyone will hang on for the ride. It's a slow process and it's one that continually does occur...but slowly. I agree that Lebrecht needs to stop whining and actually listen to some of the music he's so flippantly dismissing. If he really doesn't like how Korngoldian it is after listening, he can go ahead and start composing the music for this revolution of his.

[Marcus 385]

I find Mr. Lebrecht's comments ill-informed, presumptious and fairly unmaginative.

And it is insultingly stupid to mention Shore and Williams in the same context, or Shore and Korngold, for that matter.

I also think he has blinder faith in contemporary clasical composers than he ought to; there's very little in Thomas Adés' or Turnage's production to really suggest them being potentially very good film composers.

Film music is about music as a communicative art, about music as a language that engages us emotionally, and for that, it needs dramatic and contextual clarity, and a total sense of selflessness.

Very few contemporary concert composers are really able to capture anything extra-musical very poignantly, often due to a complete dismissal of the notion that music is a language of meaning ( of course beyond what is culturally inherited/learnt).

Also:

There's nothing in Williams' music that is outdated. His music couldn't have been writen in he 30's or 40's;

His particular style is an amalgamation of so much more than that, and his orchestrations (as well as melodic and harmonic constructions) are very different from those of Korngold and Strauss!

Williams is probably the one composer who more than anyone else as been able to prove the possibiliy of a completely modern, yet completely traditionally based contemporary romantic musical language.

[Hitch 55]

At least he mentioned John Adams. I like him already. More Joby Talbot please.

[scissorhands 16]

Only one brittish guy could mention Turnage and Adès. I second all that Marcus said.

Williams has always written in a 1930s/40s style, mixing large scale romanticism with a slightly jazzier approach.

Well, "War of the Worlds" comes to my mind. That doesn't match your description.

[Jeshopk 8]

And lets not fo'get all da Phat Beatz Williams krunked out in AI. Yo man that was sweeeeeeet. And Missouri Breaks? Take that Moby! You wanna talk modern? Look no further than Cantina Band 2! Yo baby that shyatt was the shiiiiiiiizzzznaaaaaaaattttt!!!!

[Henry B 49]

Hard to believe as it may be, there's more to non-orchestral music than gross caricatures of black people.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

There's nothing in Williams' music that is outdated. His music couldn't have been writen in he 30's or 40's;

His particular style is an amalgamation of so much more than that, and his orchestrations (as well as melodic and harmonic constructions) are very different from those of Korngold and Strauss!

Williams is probably the one composer who more than anyone else as been able to prove the possibiliy of a completely modern, yet completely traditionally based contemporary romantic musical language.

I beg to differ. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Williams. BUT the harmonic language he uses is the epitome of 30s/40s style post romanticism. Name a single film score he has written (not counting the electro stuff in Sleepers/AI) that doesn't have it's harmonic/melodic roots in the 30s or 40s.

[Jeshopk 8]

Hard to believe as it may be, there's more to non-orchestral music than gross caricatures of black people.

You are taking me far too seriously my friend. Yes, I enjoy a good Patsy Cline, or a good King Oliver. I just don't see why we have to forge forth all the time into an abyss of crappy. Modern more often than not is a reduction of harmony and technique. In the case of orchestral music, it is a template that excludes.

There's nothing in Williams' music that is outdated. His music couldn't have been writen in he 30's or 40's;His particular style is an amalgamation of so much more than that, and his orchestrations (as well as melodic and harmonic constructions) are very different from those of Korngold and Strauss!Williams is probably the one composer who more than anyone else as been able to prove the possibiliy of a completely modern, yet completely traditionally based contemporary romantic musical language.

I beg to differ. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Williams. BUT the harmonic language he uses is the epitome of 30s/40s style post romanticism. Name a single film score he has written (not counting the electro stuff in Sleepers/AI) that doesn't have it's harmonic/melodic roots in the 30s or 40s.

Meh! Listen with ears, not ass! I do enjoy your compliments to my music, but Williams can not be 1940's music.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

I'm not trying to be argumentative (well maybe just a little) but what makes the language of Williams' music so different from, say, Howard Hanson, or Stravinsky, or Prokofiev, or Vaughan Williams? He has a style all his own, of course. BUT he uses a very traditional musical language. That's actually one of the reasons I love his music so much.

[Henry B 49]

Hard to believe as it may be, there's more to non-orchestral music than gross caricatures of black people.

You are taking me far too seriously my friend. Yes, I enjoy a good Patsy Cline, or a good King Oliver. I just don't see why we have to forge forth all the time into an abyss of crappy. Modern more often than not is a reduction of harmony and technique. In the case of orchestral music, it is a template that excludes.

Sometimes less is more.

[Jeshopk 8]

Hard to believe as it may be, there's more to non-orchestral music than gross caricatures of black people.

You are taking me far too seriously my friend. Yes, I enjoy a good Patsy Cline, or a good King Oliver. I just don't see why we have to forge forth all the time into an abyss of crappy. Modern more often than not is a reduction of harmony and technique. In the case of orchestral music, it is a template that excludes.

Sometimes less is more.

Well, then my brain must be f*cked because I love Williams' complexity.

[Marcus 385]

There's nothing in Williams' music that is outdated. His music couldn't have been writen in he 30's or 40's;

His particular style is an amalgamation of so much more than that, and his orchestrations (as well as melodic and harmonic constructions) are very different from those of Korngold and Strauss!

Williams is probably the one composer who more than anyone else as been able to prove the possibiliy of a completely modern, yet completely traditionally based contemporary romantic musical language.

I beg to differ. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Williams. BUT the harmonic language he uses is the epitome of 30s/40s style post romanticism. Name a single film score he has written (not counting the electro stuff in Sleepers/AI) that doesn't have it's harmonic/melodic roots in the 30s or 40s.

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't have roots in 30's/40's film music, which is to say that it has roots in a late romantic classical idiom, which is to say that it has roots in a Western classical tradition, but I'm simply saying that harmonically/melodically/texturally/formally, nothing of it could have been written in the 30's or 40's. For that, it includes and expands on so much more:

It's rather like the entire plethora of 20th century techniques (including more avantgarde type of writing) has been seen through a neo-romantic lens.

Williams' orchestrations belong to a late 20th century style that is distinctly American, and can be heard in the works of John Adams, John Corigliano, Richard Danielpour, etc., and which does come out of Bernstein (which is to say Mahler) (and certainly also the entire Hollywood tradition).

A feature of this style that is very different from, say Strauss/Korngold, is it's compactness, and also the way it uses doublings (and indeed the doublings themselves). This allows for a "brighter" and louder sound, where each component of a texture comes through very clearly.

An example could be Williams' wood-wind flourishes; he will typically first of all have a lot of unisons and octaves (where Korngold or Strauss are likely to have a more heterophonous texture, with a lot of 6 against 5 against 4, etc., and also doubling some in 3rds, etc.), and will also frequently enhance the gesture with a wind-chime gliss., a cymbal swell, and high piano, creating one "giant" composite instrument.

A feature of Williams' harmonic writing that places it much later than Prokofiev or Bartok or Walton,etc., is the way he constructs his polychordal expansions.

For a composer in an earlier part of the 20th century, such techniques would be used to create dissonance and tension, or simply just color. But it was always an "opposite" idea to more traditional harmony. Williams, however, will use these sonorities spectrally (overtonally), creating the modern romantic equivalent to

what composers like Grisey or Tristan Murail would do in the 70's/80's/90's. Williams treats his polyharmonies as natural expansions and embellishments of a more traditional/ (neo-) romantic fundament.

There's so much more I'd like to say about this, but I will have to come back to it a little later, I'm late for rehearsal. Have a good day, everybody!

[Datameister 1,394]

where Korngold or Strauss are likely to have a more heterophonous texture, with a lot of 6 against 5 against 4, etc., and also doubling some in 3rds, etc.

A feature of Williams' harmonic writing that places it much later than Prokofiev or Bartok or Walton,etc., is the way he constructs his polychordal expansions.

I'm sorry, Marcus, but do you think you could explain these two statements a little more? I know the basics of music theory--a little more than that--but this is terminology I'm unfamiliar with. Thanks!

[GoodMusician 53]

maybe the reason the genre "lacks originality" is because people are so stuck in the past and in theory...

rather than trying to feel the music, one must "analyze" the music...

Natural talent is something I think is lacking...

But there is no lack of sounds... Williams has a million... although all the other composers combined I can think of, excluding a few greats, don't really have that many and do start to sound the same after a while sadly...

I hate people who complain about this stuff though... what was the point? what was he trying to say? All he was doing was being overly critical about something, making statements about composers...

nothing of much substance. It's about as bad as reading a tabloid or watching one of those religious programs saying that the end times are upon us really lol

[Henry B 49]

Hard to believe as it may be, there's more to non-orchestral music than gross caricatures of black people.

You are taking me far too seriously my friend. Yes, I enjoy a good Patsy Cline, or a good King Oliver. I just don't see why we have to forge forth all the time into an abyss of crappy. Modern more often than not is a reduction of harmony and technique. In the case of orchestral music, it is a template that excludes.

Sometimes less is more.

Well, then my brain must be f*cked because I love Williams' complexity.

Sigh.

No. I said that sometimes less is more. How about Williams's vocal theme from Munich? That's just three or four string chords and a singer. Does that make it inferior to his more complex music?

[Marcus 385]

where Korngold or Strauss are likely to have a more heterophonous texture, with a lot of 6 against 5 against 4, etc., and also doubling some in 3rds, etc.

A feature of Williams' harmonic writing that places it much later than Prokofiev or Bartok or Walton,etc., is the way he constructs his polychordal expansions.

I'm sorry, Marcus, but do you think you could explain these two statements a little more? I know the basics of music theory--a little more than that--but this is terminology I'm unfamiliar with. Thanks!

Greetings!

First:

Heterophony: Can best be described as "micro-polyphony", where many voices combine in almost similar fashion, with slight/slighter discrepancies.

The example I gave, 6:5:4, denotes for instance sixtuplets against quintuplets against a group of four notes, in other words, something that creates a somewhat blurred effect.

This is often a technique used to create an "out-of-focus" effect, or simply a layered texture.

The music of Ligeti is a good example of this, and also, at the other end of the spectrum, some of the music of Perotin, and other medieval contrapuntal composers.

Second:

Polychordality is simply the stacking of one chord on another; say G#minor on Aminor (a frequent sonority in Williams' music!).

For Williams, these sonorities are typically seen as functional (as part of a harmonic scheme, and not only coloristic effects, although they certainly also serve that purpose), whereas in earlier 20th century music, such harmonies where often likely assigned a more "percussive" role (as in early Stravinsky and some works of Prokofiev).

Hope this is now a little clearer!

[Datameister 1,394]

Thanks, Marcus! Makes sense now. This was more or less what I guessed you were talking about. Incidentally, I'd been wondering for a while if there was a term for the sort of polyrhythmic figures you're talking about. Heterophony...gotta remember that. Thanks again!

And now that I think about it, you're right...that whole G#m on Am example does come up a lot in Williams' music. Works quite well, too...