Why The Imperial March is Darth Vader's Theme

[Lurker 5]

There is no doubt that John Williams' concert piece "The Imperial March" is one of the most recognizable pieces of film music ever written. The cue, described as "Darth Vader's Theme", is a driving march that perfectly describes the relentless pursuit Vader was on searching for Luke Skywalker and ultimately, the rebels. Cold and mechanical, the piece is the total opposite of Williams' own "March from Superman" which makes sense, as Superman stands for everything Darth Vader is not.

The march was first heard (tracked) in The Empire Strikes Back, when the Imperial fleet is first seen. After the introduction of a new spacecraft, the unimaginatively named "Super Star Destroyer", we get our first glimpse of Vader in the new film. Apparently, a lot has happened to the character since the last time we saw him, flying away in a damaged TIE fighter, possibly the only survivor of the Imperial fleet stationed at the Death Star. In Star Wars Vader seemed to be almost a body guard to Grand Moff Tarkin aboard the Death Star. Vader was always by his side, doing Tarkins dirty work, such as torturing Princess Leia and actually going out in a TIE fighter to fight against the rebels. All of the big decisions, such as destroying Alderaan, were the work of Tarkin. Vader was clearly not the decision maker of the two, regardless of his relationship with the emperor.

Once Tarkin was killed at the "Battle of Yavin" (when the Death Star was destroyed), Vader seems to have moved up in rank and in power. While it was never really clear what Vader's military status was in Star Wars, by the time The Empire Strikes Back came around, Vader had clearly gained some prominence, as no decision is made without his approval. In Star Wars Vader took the orders ("Terminate her, immediately").

Also demonstrating Vader's lack of authority in Star Wars, note the conference scene. Admiral Motti stands up to Vader, even calling the Jedi "an ancient religion". Vader eventually sways Motti to change his attitude, through the use of a "force guided" choke hold, but it's clear that people are not afraid of standing up to Vader. Contrast this with The Empire Strikes Back. When we first see Vader walking across the platform to discuss what the probe droid has found in the Hoth system (a shot that is actually from the end of the film, only reversed), look at the faces of the men in the control pit. They have fear in their faces. Vader has clearly changed, from being Tarkin's bully to being someone not to be messed with. This is an important change, and it perfectly explains why Vader now has his own theme. He has become an important character. That is why it's critical that "Darth Vader's Theme" not be heard until those early moments of The Empire Strikes Back.

There are those that think "The Imperial March" should be incorporated into Star Wars to provide some sort of continuity, but this is not correct. The Vader in Star Wars doesn't deserve his own theme. In that film he's part of the much larger Imperial fleet which has its own musical theme, which was supplanted once Empire came out and the series essentially shifted the focus to being the life and death of Darth Vader.

Even the filmmakers of the Star Wars films seem to have forgotten what this piece is really meant to represent. In the latest film, Attack of the Clones, a grand Imperial army of clones is seen while "The Imperial March" plays. This is wrong in every sense of the word. Vader isn't even a character yet in the series, and Anakin Skywalker isn't even in the scene. A much more appropriate idea would have been to go back to the "Imperial motif" that Williams wrote for Star Wars. This would provide the correct continuity for the series, and it would further show the evolution of the Empire and Darth Vader's position in it. Also hearing "The Imperial March" this "early" in the series robs the "later" films of some of their power. Williams carefully included musical hints of Vader's theme in "Anakin's Theme" from the score to The Phantom Menace, the idea being that this little boy will grow into Darth Vader and this theme will grow and evolve with him until he becomes the Vader of The Empire Strikes Back. Well that idea has been rendered completely useless, by the careless placement of the theme in Attack of the Clones.

Neil

[Big John 3]

Well written, Neil. I agree completely. The subtle Vader them in the Anakin theme sent chills down my spine when I first heard it.

Seems all the advances in Digital special effects have spelled the end of meaningful collaboration between Lucas and Williams. Without actual scenes completed when Williams needs to do his thing, it seems he's less likely to carry the established kind of forward-thinking and cohesion that we've come to expect.

And can you blame him? Maybe that's why he's bowing out of Harry Potter so early in the franchise. Establish some themes, and then let others develop them further. Why invest the time in something he can't give his full attention to?

I'll still wait with bated breath, though, for whatever he churns out.

BigJohn

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Neil, I agree completely. That was an excellent piece.

I think that there are several here who will disagree, but they will be wrong.

EAJ.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

VERY interesting points, Neil. I had never really given that much thought before. Too bad Williams listened to Lucas' "suggestion" about using the March at the end of AOTC.

Ray Barnsbury

[Morn 8]

Good points, but it's too late now.

[Beowulf 4]

I agree.....However, I just hope this doesn't turn into some sort of prequel-bashing; because uh...that happens alot around here. Quite commonly without much merit and evidence I might add.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I dont want to argue, only say that when Darth Vader Appears, the theme is more bass and slow than when the fleet/army appears, which is more full blown and has more grandeur.

But of course my opinion is wrong.

PS: Colonel Maximilian Veers survived the Death Star, he was promoted to general and assigned to Vader's SSD as Ground troops chief. But of course it is EU and doesnt count anything I know. And i kinda agree, sometimes.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Yes the Imperial March doubles as Vader's theme just in the same way as The Force Theme doubles as Ben Kenobi's theme. I thought this point was rather obvious and well known??

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I dont want to argue, only say that when Darth Vader Appears, the theme is more bass and slow than when the fleet/army appears, which is more full blown and has more grandeur.

Do you mean the version in the film, basicly the first 30 or 45 seconds of the concert arrangement of The Imperial March.

Or the cue Williams actually wrote for that scene but went unused?

Stefancos- who thinks Indysolo makes a good point.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I dont want to argue, only say that when Darth Vader Appears, the theme is more bass and slow than when the fleet/army appears, which is more full blown and has more grandeur.

Do you mean the version in the film, basicly the first 30 or 45 seconds of the concert arrangement of The Imperial March.

Or the cue Williams actually wrote for that scene but went unused?

Stefancos- who thinks Indysolo makes a good point.

They both, and in fact in that track we can hear the loud part for the fleet and the low part for Vader. I was refering also for example the beggining of 'the asteroid field', 'the emperor arrives,'

When i said full-blown i meant also loud.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Yeah it just performed differently when its for Vader because the "Imperial March respresents the might of the grand Imperial army".

[Morn 8]

I think the same effect that Indy is talking about can be achieved with less grand thinner orchestrated versions of the imperial march.

[Lurker 5]

Yes the Imperial March doubles as Vader's theme just in the same way as The Force Theme doubles as Ben Kenobi's theme. I thought this point was rather obvious and well known??

The point is, the way the music was intially presented, it seems to have symbolized Darth Vaders rise to prominence. He's an important figure to the Empire in The Empire Strikes Back, so it's fitting that he gets his own theme. The idea of using it in Star Wars and the prequels is not correct and hurts the musical tapestry of the series and diminishes the importance of the theme when it's first heard in Empire. And this "well known" point was lost on even the filmmakers.

Neil

[Romão 2,274]

I think the Imperial March when played in the form of a march, represents the Empire and its might. When it's played more subdued, I think it represents Vader.

For ex, when the Emperor Arrives in ROTJ, that full blown statement of the Imperial March clearly represents the Empire and its might and not Vader. It's more or less as in AOTC.

BUt some of you have a problem with the Imperial March in AOTC, so, besides the alterante that was writen, Williams could've used the Droid Marhc as he did when Obi-Wan saw the clones. It would've porbably worked out pretty well.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

BUt some of you have a problem with the Imperial March in AOTC, so, besides the alterante that was writen, Williams could've used the Droid Marhc as he did when Obi-Wan saw the clones. It would've porbably worked out pretty well.

Merkel, The Trade Fed March was up then *thanks* to lucas or ben burt. Williams idea was putting it when obi-wan sees the control ships on Geonosis from his Jedi Starfighter.

Indy, what about putting the Imperial March when Star-Destroyers appear? I mean not using it with Vader

[Lurker 5]

Indy, what about putting the Imperial March when Star-Destroyers appear? I mean not using it with Vader

"The Imperial March" should only be heard in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. That's because now Vader is critical to the Empire, thus justifying his new theme. Before Empire he was not a decision maker, but more of a bully. His influence is not felt throughout the Empire yet, which is why his theme should only be introduced once Darth Vader really rises to power in Empire.

For Attack of the Clones, the best alternative would have been to use a variation of the "Droid March", perhaps evolving it into the "Imperial Theme" heard in Star Wars instead of using the "The Imperial March". This would show the evolution of the Empire, and would allow the original "Imperial Theme" to be the central bad guys theme for the "next" 2 films (Episodes III and IV for you saga completists).

Neil

[King Mark 3,626]

The Imperial March is both a theme for the Empire and a theme for Vader,Williams said so depending on what part of the piece."Approaching the Death Star"in ROTJ before we see the shuttle landing probably is an expansion on the middle part of the Imperial March,and probably the actual Vader's theme.I think he stated in the Star Wars LP liners that the "Rebel Fanfare" was an imperial theme....so sometimes he contradicts himself.

K.M.Who wishes Alan would dig up my translated article from the EZ board archives

[Guest]

Why don't you post this as a letter to Williams? Indysolo?

I'm sure after he realizes how much effort you put into it, he will feel obliged to respond!

When he responds, you can scan the letter and post it on here.

[Lurker 5]

Why don't you post this as a letter to Williams? Indysolo?  

I'm sure after he realizes how much effort you put into it, he will feel obliged to respond!    

When he responds, you can scan the letter and post it on here.

I don't have a scanner.

And as you can see, Williams did all the work. It's a pity that it seems now that his musical ideas will not be properly displayed.

Neil

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Hey its not entirely impossible to believe Big John might respond if the letter was wel written enough. Long shot maybe, but its possible.

[CYPHER 1]

So whatever happened to the "Imperial Theme" first introduced in Star Wars: A New Hope to represent both Vader AND the Empire? It's never heard again in any of the other movies is it? It strikes me that there's a bit of inconsistency here too. The liner notes in the 1997 Special Edition CD release refer to it as both an Imperial theme as well as Vader's. I think it's precise purpose should have been clarified and following that, used subtely in some of the prequels to foreshadow Anakin's tragic destiny and/or the rise of the Empire. Any thoughts?

CYPHER

[Guest macrea]

I agree with Indysolo completely. I don't think Vader's rank was even an issue in EpIV. It seemed like the political/military running of the Empire was one thing, with the Emperor either not as interested or perhaps not really having direct power (the prologue to the novel suggests this). This means that Vader is basically Palpatine's eyes and ears in Star Wars. It's not until he knows about his son and pursues him that he needs a theme of his own.

As for AOTC, I'm confused. The trade federation march used for the clones makes no sense. After all the clones are going to FIGHT the trade federation later in the film. And at the end, when the separatists are defeated, not only is the Imperial March inappropriate, but shouldn't it be victorious (with perhaps a bit of ominous undercurrent)? It seems like musically this film assumes that the audience has already knows what's going to happen in later episodes (i.e. Emp replaces droids with clones, the clone army becomes the Empire, etc.). The whole thing is frustrating beyond imagination.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Indy, what about putting the Imperial March when Star-Destroyers appear? I mean not using it with Vader

"The Imperial March" should only be heard in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. That's because now Vader is critical to the Empire, thus justifying his new theme. Before Empire he was not a decision maker, but more of a bully. His influence is not felt throughout the Empire yet, which is why his theme should only be introduced once Darth Vader really rises to power in Empire.

For Attack of the Clones, the best alternative would have been to use a variation of the "Droid March", perhaps evolving it into the "Imperial Theme" heard in Star Wars instead of using the "The Imperial March". This would show the evolution of the Empire, and would allow the original "Imperial Theme" to be the central bad guys theme for the "next" 2 films (Episodes III and IV for you saga completists).

Neil

Neil, that's becasue you are asuming that Imperial March is Darth Vader exclusive theme.

And putting an evolved Trade Federation March to the Clones IS worst than putting Imperila March on ANH. (i dont like the part when obi sees the clones in AOC, althought it is breathtaking)

Luke, who thinks that the Alternated ending sounded like the stortroopers theme in ANH, but He is not sad about the Imperial march in AOC, since it has more grandeur and is less obscure than in EPV and VI.

Isnt 'The Arena' an evolved trade Federation March? I though it was changed for the Confederation

[Guest]

I don't have a scanner.   Neil

That's no excuse! Just send it to him, I guarantee you will get a reply within 6 weeks.

[Lurker 5]

that's becasue you are asuming that Imperial March is Darth Vader exclusive theme.

Luke, the entire point of my intitial post was to prove that "The Imperial March" is indeed "Darth Vader's Theme". I used several examples to prove that this is the case using specific examples to show how the character of Darth Vader has changed to warrant such a theme. So far you haven't shown any examples to show that I'm wrong.

Neil

[Romão 2,274]

The Imperial Marhc is mostly Darth Vader's theme, but when, for example, the Emperor Arrives at the Death Star in ROTJ, we hear a fully devoloped statement of the Imperial March, ad I think that in this particular scene, the theme relates to the Empire and its might rather than the character of Darth Vader.

I don't think it's by accident that the theme is named Imperial March (Darth Vader's theme). It can be related to both concepts and ideas.

[Lurker 5]

And Merkel, I've already said there are no problems with the theme appearing after Empire.

Neil

[Romão 2,274]

I was not talking about the appeatence of the Imperial March after ESB is legitimate or not, I was only giving an example where the Imperial March does not represent vader but rather the Empire.

[Morn 8]

"The Imperial March" should only be heard in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.  That's because now Vader is critical to the Empire, thus justifying his new theme.

A whole new theme? Not necessary, maybe you could argue that it is the first time the theme should be as big as it is at the end of AOTC.

And any how. It would be better to have a single theme for Vader throughout the saga for continuity.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

that's becasue you are asuming that Imperial March is Darth Vader exclusive theme.

Luke, the entire point of my intitial post was to prove that "The Imperial March" is indeed "Darth Vader's Theme". I used several examples to prove that this is the case using specific examples to show how the character of Darth Vader has changed to warrant such a theme. So far you haven't shown any examples to show that I'm wrong.

Neil

I SAID:

I dont want to argue, only say that when Darth Vader Appears, the theme is more bass and slow than when the fleet/army appears, which is more full blown and has more grandeur.

in that track (ESB, The Imperial Probe/Aboard the Executor) we can hear the loud part for the fleet and the low part for Vader. I was refering also for example the beggining of 'the asteroid field', 'the emperor arrives,'  

When i said full-blown i meant also loud.

But of course , all my words are senseless or imposible to read

And we know Vader is a more important person in ESB/ROJ. Or at least he didnt seemed it on ANH. The thing Leia said to Tarkin (about vader being a dog) could have been said to tease Vader, who in nevertheless a second one. That goes a lot with Leia's Character. Vader could be catching an eye on Tarkin, as an envoy of the Emperor.

And About if Lucas-Williams decided not to make a character from an evil character in ANH? You know, as important as Tarkin is, and he has no theme.

[King Mark 3,626]

Grr.Williams explained it in a very simple way how The imperial March is both the Empire's theme and Darth Vader's theme in my lost translated Starfix article.No need for a 20 paragraph analysis.

K.m.

[Yoda Claus 0]

I, too, agree with you Neil. Very good article/post.

-St. Yodes

[Trumpeteer 302]

Neil, I enjoyed readig your analysis of the theme. It brings up a lot of interesting points, but I'm only going to bring up one right now:

The Imperial March is played a few times in Return of the Jedi representing the Empire. First, when the Emperor arrives. Second, listen to the music as the stormtroopers are going to capture C3PO and R2D2 (before the Ewok attack). That's the Imperial March.

I am in agreement that ANH should not have any references to that theme. Not just for sake of preserving the original score, but for the fact that this is not Vader's movie. It is Luke's movie. It is Leia's movie. It is Ben's movie. I think JW would have written something for Vader if he had felt that Vader had enough presence in the film to warrant one.

As far as using it in AOTC, it just shows how Williams and Lucas both feel that the theme, while obviously developed (or the starting point for) from Anakin's theme, also should represent the restrengthening of the Empire under Vader's command in ESB. As Neil said, Vader is the one in control in ESB.

So what am I saying? That its presence at the end of AOTC is not good. Its presence when Anakin confesses his slaughter to Padme is good. When the Emperor takes over in #3 and declares the Empire functional, it's a good place. When Anakin becomes Vader, it's a good place.

Jeff -- who likes the duality of the theme

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Vader is the one in control in ESB.

Following Neil's way, NO HE IS NOT. We can see the Emperor this time, and Vader dropping to his knees before him. Palpatine is THE ONE in control this time.

[The Five Tones 302]

Neil, great opening to this thread. I agree about reusing the Imperial/Vader motif from ANH. So many people, including many JWFan.net members not to mention the powers that be, seem way too hung up on the Imperial March to realize how debased it has become since AOTC.

[Guest]

I don't quite agree with you, Indysolo. I read your opinion, I respect it, but I don't share it. In my opinion, the Imperial March is not only "for Darth Vader", in a certain sense it represents all the Empire and, since in the scene in Attack of the Clones we can feel in a terrible way what will grow up from the clones, its use there is right. When I went to the cinema to see the film, it made on me a very strong impression, I think that the deep contrast between the March and the following Love theme (when Anakin and Padme get married) is one of the most emotional things in the film. The imperial theme from SW wouldn't have reached the same effect (however, I want to point out that I absolutely am not one of the people who would like to see SW re-scored, I think it doesn't need it).

And you shouldn't forget one important thing: from an historical point of view, all the people who saw AOTC already KNEW the "future" development of the saga! All of us knew the Imperial march, there is no reason to avoid using it. If the films were realized in the correct cronological order, I would agree that the I. March would better have come as a "strong surprise" in the 5th film, but, actually, there isn't that element of surprise. In other words, the new films are not strictly supposed to be seen before the original three, it is a sort of flash back, and we already know how it will end (I should say "how it ENDED"). I don't know if I clearly explained my mind, but, if you want, I'll be happy to debate with you about this, because it is a problem about which I thought a lot.

Score (who forgot to login!)

[tpigeon 3]

that is a very interesting perspective, Neil, and i believe you make many good points. However, i still think that the Imperial March is indeed the Theme for both Vader AND the Empire. i always did. there are times in ESB when we see Vader without the presence of the Empire and hear the music an vice versa, we see the Imperial Fleet and Vader won't even be in the scene. i think it is just as much a theme for both Vader and the Imperial Army. i think it was used properly in Attack of the Clones and agree with Score in regards to the contrast with the Love Theme and all. what i like about the concept of the prequels is that the Republic is being corrupted just like Anakin is. The Republic will evolve into the Empire, just like Anakin will evolve into Darth Vader. and that part of the film in which we see the Clone Army in its full glory is essentially the birth of the Empire, or the downfall of the Republic. i believe the same goes for Anakin. the end represents the sealed fate of both of them. sure, the Republic isn't really the Empire yet, but like Anakin, its fate is sealed. it's only a matter of time now until both the Republic and Anakin crumble. For the Republic, the Imperial March is heard. For Anakin, the bittersweet and tragic Love Theme is heard. i could go on to expland on all of this, but i believe i've said enough.

Ted

[Romão 2,274]

I'm one of those in favor of the usage of the Imperial March in the end of AOTC. As some already have said, it's a theme for both vader and the Empire, so it was more than adequate to put it in the movie when the Empire is born (in a kind of subdued way).

[Uni 306]

Excellent thread. One of the best I've read in a good while. I'm not one of those who believes that we should only discuss film scores to the exclusion of all other subjects, but it does seem like we get fewer and fewer threads that pry into the primary topic of this forum the way that this one did. Kudos to everyone who's contributed all these intelligent responses.

You deserve particular praise, Neil, for starting things off so well. Whether we agree or disagree with you, you state your case so well it's hard to disprove your assertions outright.

And I did find myself agreeing with you....but, interestingly enough, I also found myself agreeing with many others here, even those taking a contrary point of view. For my part, I think you're right in saying the theme belongs to the later episodes, and is central to Vader himself as the chief representative of the Empire in those films. (Yes, the Emporer was the head honcho, but Vader was the face of the Empire, the black-hatted - helmeted? - villain who represented the audience's first and deepest connection with the tyranny of the Evil Republic, right down to his personal conversion at the end acting as the microcosm of the Rebellion overcoming the Empire.) By the time the events of ESB begin to unfold, he has attained such prominence (as you suggested) that any action by the Empire is an extension of either his wishes or the Emporer's - and in most cases both. Therefore, in those places in ROJ where a quick theme insertion is needed for action on the part of the Empire's minions, Vader's tune is obviously preferable over some jazzed-up, bellicosed version of the Emporer's Theme (although it is kinda fun to think about what that might've sounded like.... ).

However, as much as I have to agree from a technical point of view....I also found its use in AOTC very moving from a strictly emotional perspective. It's placement as a militaristic counterpoint to the sweeping, epic marriage scene (as I've said before, one of the few effective scenes between Anakin and Amidala, IMO) is so effective that it's hard to imagine it being done any differently. The ANH Imperial Theme wouldn't have carried the day; frankly, it was used mostly as a transitional device in that film, and never bore much weight as a theme unto itself. Playing those four notes over and over would hardly have expressed what was needed as the clones took off in their mini-Star Destroyers (Star Annoyers?). And, as has been expressed, the theme for the battle droids had been misused enough in the film already. (Though in a sense, it's appearance during Obi-Wan's inspection ironically reflects the paradox that plagued even the title of the film itself. The clones as mischaracterized as "attacking" - which is true, I suppose, if you're looking at it from the bad guys' point of view; but a standard good vs. evil epic ought to side with the protagonist's perspective.) He had to do something; either create a seperate palette for that one scene, or use one of the themes available to him. Which one, then? The Imperial March? The Clones' Theme? A heightened version of the Emporer's Theme? The Bicycle Chase? (My personal choice.... ) I think that, no matter what he chose, someone would have objected to it on similar grounds. Nothing prior to that scene could really express (accurately) what was taking place in the larger sceme of things; but to use another "future" theme (as he did) would have drawn the same criticism.

All of which brings up what I think is the crux of the matter: this particular series of films has become a thematic minefield for Williams. It's been said a thousand times how his score for ANH all but resurrected the Wagnerian technique of leitmotif, the art of establishing musical phrases that can later be used to ellucidate characters or concepts. How interesting, then, that the selfsame series that innovated the technique should be produced in so out-of-order a manner that there are finally two chronologies at work: "real time" (so to speak) and the SW timeline. Should Williams be required to honor one of these to the total exclusion of the other? Is it wrong for him, knowing that we do know what's going to happen in the future of this story (it's hardly presumptious to say as much) to make preemptive thematic references, such as those that might foreshadow the eventual strength of the Empire, long before they find their full fruition - knowing that he knows that we know (that, uh....he knows)? What method can he apply that will please everyone?

There are two other elements that factor in here as well. The first is sheer effect. We know Williams to be someone who often orders the selections of his released scores more in deferrence to the listening experience than to honor the chronological order of the film. We've argued whether this is right or wrong, but in the end, it is his decision as the creative artist whose works these are. I would submit the same impulse is at work here - that he did it just because it sounded good. And honestly, I don't think Williams himself is as obsessed with thematic accuracy as we are. That's not to say that he would've stuck Leia's Theme in that scene "just because it sounded good"; but given the opportunity to create an effective mood using a theme that could be said to apply, I think he wouldn't lose much sleep over the decision.

The second factor has to do with the overriding creative source, too often forgotten in these discussions, I think. The director/composer relationship is not often (is rarely, in fact) as cohesive and second-nature as the one shared by Williams and Spielberg. Most of the time, the director tells the composer what he wants, and it's the composer's obligation to fulfill his desires to the best of his abilities. I personally believe that's why we see so much of this dreaded "plagiarism" in film scores today. Directors love to temp track their editing process (even their shooting process sometimes), after which they'll hand the temped music over to the composer and say, "This is what I want." So that's what the composer gives them. Now, while I don't believe this is what took place between Lucas and Williams in this case (unless George handed him the CD's for the original trilogy and said, "This is what I want"), I do think it may have been as much Lucas's idea to use the themes in AOTC the way they appeared as it was John's. (Keep in mind, this is the guy who has no compunctions about taking what Williams has done and shredding it to pieces for the sake of latent editing changes.)

In the end, I don't know that there is a pat answer to any of this. What I do know, however, is that it makes for a great discussion...! Thanks again, Neil, and to the rest of you as well.

- Uni....who hasn't had a really lengthy post like this in too long to remember....

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Dear me . . . I have missed a LOT by finding this board after you started posting less frequently! Now I see what all the fuss is about. Nice post, and I agree about the effect the March has in AOTC. I especially love how it's so dry . . . no clashing of drums and cymbals in the background, just pure, raw, evil as the Frech Horn alone carries the theme. Now, as for it's appropriateness for the scene, I can really see both sides of the story. It all comes down to what/whom you believe the theme represents. Anyway, nice post Uni, and I hope you are here again to stay!

Ray Barnsbury

[tpigeon 3]

Dear me . . . I have missed a LOT by finding this board after you started posting less frequently!  Now I see what all the fuss is about.  Nice post, and I agree about the effect the March has in AOTC.  I especially love how it's so dry . . . no clashing of drums and cymbals in the background, just pure, raw, evil as the Frech Horn alone carries the theme.  Now, as for it's appropriateness for the scene, I can really see both sides of the story.  It all comes down to what/whom you believe the theme represents.  Anyway, nice post Uni, and I hope you are here again to stay!

Ray Barnsbury

beautiful!

Ted, who thinks Ray's post was great

[Guest macrea]

Uni's use of the word "minefield" is excellent. But not only is the prequel trilogy a musical minefield, but a narrative one as well. IMO the ONLY possible way to experience these films is to see the OT and then imagine an additional scene at the end of ROTJ in which the ghosts of Anakin, Ben, and Yoda appear to Luke and Leia and say "now that this is all over, we can tell you everything that happened. It all started...." Cue Episode I.

The use of the Imperial March at the end of AOTC remains a conundrum. However emotionally effective it may be, Neil still makes a good point that Williams originally set out to gradually morph Anakin's Theme into Vader's theme by the end of Episode III. We also know that Williams wrote something different for the clone assembly at first and Lucas made him change it to the Imperial March. This made it necessary for Williams to abort his original intention. The ace up the sleeve has already been played now, so what does that leave for the first appearance of Darth Vader? While it's a shame that Williams's end credits were not used in the film (but heard on the album), it certainly was intended to work only if the Vader theme was not yet fully developed. The point here is that Lucas is definitely undermining Williams's artistic integrity. That much is certain regardless of one's opinion of the use of the Imperial March at the end of AOTC.

This engaging discussion has given me much to think about, so in the meantime let me drop a reminder that when Vader strikes Ben Kenobi down in ANH and Luke screams, what do we hear...? Princess Leia's theme! And when Leia, Lando, and Chewie are running from stormtroopers in TESB, at one point we hear Yoda's theme! Sometimes you just have to go with what works. That said, I stand firm that the score to ANH should NOT be changed.

[Trumpeteer 302]

And you shouldn't forget one important thing: from an historical point of view, all the people who saw AOTC already KNEW the "future" development of the saga! All of us knew the Imperial march, there is no reason to avoid using it. If the films were realized in the correct cronological order, I would agree that the I. March would better have come as a "strong surprise" in the 5th film, but, actually, there isn't that element of surprise.

Hmm. There is a reason to avoid using the Imperial March in the prequels: overkill. I didn't mind the slight uses in TPM (when Yoda forsees garve things with Anakin), and the AOTC use when Anakin talks about his slaughter. Otherwise, it's not foreshadowing. It's just outright telling us what's going to happen. Even though you are right that most of us know, there still is that degree of continuity.

Which is another reason why the March shouldn't be used in ANH.

[The Five Tones 302]

OK, we all love Vader's (ESB) theme. We all are craving the onset of darkness in the SW saga. Hinting at Vader's theme within Anakin's and articulating it softly in the underscore is fine and appropriate, but the final scene in AOTC is just a case of premature articulation! Sorry, bad pun.

Yes, Maccrea that's a good point that we hear related character themes instead of the directly corresponding ones, often to excellent effect -- such as when Leia et al are escaping from Cloud City to the sound of Yoda's theme, reminding us of Yoda's vision of doom. But Trumpeteer's right, Vader's March full blown in AOTC is just overkill. It's a cheap shot -- no wait, it's not even a cheap shot or a vain attempt by Lucas (who ordered the insertion of Vader's theme over what Williams had already scored) to engage the audience. He clearly cares little about us and is just being obsessive/compulsive about crossing his t's and dotting his i's.

Uni, I was always of the idea that the four-note theme connecting scenes in ANH was more for the Death Star, since there is already one for Vader/the Imperials. And to all -- I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say that John Williams' music couldn't have a certain powerful emotional impact without Vaders' ESB theme -- no reason to overuse it in the saga.

the five tones, who were happy to hear the excellent alternate "Binary Sunset", and wouldn't ever suggest that it was better the version with the Force Theme, but would hope that Lucas will eventually pay up with the alternate Clone Army music - with chorus!

[Guest]

I'm not going to disagree with a single word you said, Neil/Indysolo, because even though I began to cry the first time I heard the powerful rendition of Vader's Theme, played as the Accumulator or Acclimator (I get them mixed up) class pre-Star Destroyers take off from Coruscant, I now realize that that Theme has no place being heard there since there is no Vader, and the Empire-to-be consists of two factions being controlled by the same dark hand so as to weaken the stronger of the two and cry out for Palpatine's leadership...and grant his sheer despotism. The rumoured plan of feeding us a little Imperial March in Ep I, then a little more in II, and a little more in III until it evolves into the full shebang in V has gone by the wayside with that one critical scene......unless someone wants to make a "Phantom Edit" of Ep II with some other theme there (how about "Klendathu Landing?" JUST KIDDING).

My point, though, is that when you say:

"The Imperial March" should only be heard in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. That's because now Vader is critical to the Empire, thus justifying his new theme. Before Empire he was not a decision maker, but more of a bully. His influence is not felt throughout the Empire yet, which is why his theme should only be introduced once Darth Vader really rises to power in Empire.  

I present another quote:

"A man by the name of Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

Now, we all know that from a certain point of view, this is true, equating "your father" with "Darth Vader." However, I don't like this notion that Vader isn't critical to the Empire until after the Battle of Yavin, when he is given command of the Executor, because it seems to me that it is Vader who brings the remainder of the Jedi Order to its knees, thereby removing all major resistance standing in the way of the Empire being formed, that is until the Rebel Alliance movement really begins a short time later. Granted, after the Battle of Geonosis, there may not be that many Jedi left to kill, since Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi go into hiding, waiting to train the son of The Chosen One [Luke], but perhaps it is Vader who murders the Younglings and Mace Windu (come on, if Sam Jackson's gonna get a big death scene, there's no better way to die than being cut down by Vader), therefore placing an even greater feeling of sadness into Ben, which he then passes on to Luke.

Besides, is it not Leia, someone familiar with the workings of the Imperial Senate and hierarchy, who says to Tarkin something to the jist of "I wondered who was holding Vader's leash...I recognized your foul stench getting off the elevator" ? Would this not suggest that perhaps Vader is not as harmless as you make him out to be? Granted, either Motti assumes Vader will not harm him if he backtalks, or Motti just has big cajones.

But in the end, I do digress. The way that Episode IV presents him, as the mere sidekick to Grand Moff Tarkin, Darth Vader does not deserve his own theme. His major contributions to the Empire occurred prior to the Yavin incident by wiping out the last of the Jedi, and after when he commands the Executor at Hoth, choking at least two Navy officers outright..............WITH MIND BULLETS!!!! THAT'S TELEKENESIS, KYLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In short, George and Johnny, get the full-blown Imperial March out of Episode II, replace it with the Imperial Motif or something, and don't you dare put it into Episode IV. Leave that one alone, in light of Neil's decisively good argument.

Darth Wojo - Who was too bored to bother logging in, since I'm in a University lab and should get back to studying...at 2:30 am.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

This debate is going WAY overboard. Its just a theme folks.

[Guest]

IMO the ONLY possible way to experience these films is to see the OT and then imagine an additional scene at the end of ROTJ in which the ghosts of Anakin, Ben, and Yoda appear to Luke and Leia and say "now that this is all over, we can tell you everything that happened. It all started...." Cue Episode I.

I absolutely LOVE this idea!!!!

It makes perfect sense!!

Darth Wojo

[Rogue_Leader 2]

OK I qam sorry but that is a corny idea. I mean it just would not fit with the ending of ROTJ and would not work in general.

Not trying to insult anyone here. I just feel that could not work.

[Guest macrea]

You missed the point, Rogue Leader. The key word is "imagine." I never suggested that a scene should actually be added, but only made a recommendation in support of a fairly widely-held belief that the films should be viewed in the order in which they were filmed, because...

ANH and the first 5/6 of TESB are intended to be viewed in such a way that one does not know that Luke Skywalker's father is alive or that his father and Darth Vader are the same person.

The last 1/6 of TESB and the first 1/3 of ROTJ are intended to be viewed in such a way that one does not know whether or not Vader actually IS Luke's father as he claimed to be.

In other words, the dramatic construction of those films is such that each of these revelations is supposed to be a SURPRISE. Therefore, in order to preserve that obvious dramatic intention, the films need to be viewed beginning with Episode IV. One can then IMAGINE that Episodes I-III are the events as explained to Luke and Leia after the entire story is over. Doing this has the added effect that a lot of the bewildering aspects about the music for the prequel trilogy -- such as the use of themes that suggest things the viewers have already seen the later episodes -- become non-issues.

I'm not saying that this was the intention or that it's a good thing, but it's just a suggestion to make the debate about the scores and the use of themes too early less maddening.

Matt

-- who also thinks that the use of the Rebel fanfare in the end credits of Episodes I & II (despite it being standard) is inappropriately used at all before Episode IV.

[Morn 8]

I don't think it has to be a surprise for the dramatic structure to work.