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Why The Imperial March is Darth Vader's Theme


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I agree completely that a full statement of the theme should only come in in Empire Strikes back, but since they did botch it up and use it in AOTC they might as well use it in ANH. I was however looking forward to it being developed over the next couple of films and have it not really come to a head till Empire.... Oh well.....

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I agree with Morn. You can start looking at Eps. 4-6 through Luke's eyes, which is what I believe we're supposed to be doing in many cases.

Yeah, we'll know that Vader is the father. But watch it and see how Luke goes through this journey of discovery.

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the use of the Rebel fanfare in the end credits of Episodes I & II (despite it being standard) is inappropriately used at all before Episode IV.

Darn, i don't like it now, you are true :(

Just think how well would have worked sbstituting the rebel fanfare part for the Force theme ( that Williams said is was for the jedi- Old republic-ben)

Sad....

And i think Williams could have also eluded the use of luke spkywalker when Obi and Qui are on the trade federeation ship. The use of it with anakins destroying the ship is well put, since he a skywalker :(

But if we have to erase the rebel fanfare , we also have to erase luke's theme in the opening titles, its ok to use it as used during the movie, or as Imperial theme on anakin's one. BUt you know the first full-blown and presentation of that theme was SW (ANH) so it doesnt make sense either.

But i think that if the Main theme would have not used, more bitching would have spoken. People would like those movies even less.

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Luke's theme serves as the STAR WARS theme, and therefore it needs to be the main title for each film. It is also okay in the end credits. But in the context of the story it's not really appropriate for the prequels. Notice that Williams only quoted it briefly in TPM (and part of it was cut out) and not at all in AOTC (although it was tracked from TPM). However, the Rebel fanfare is just that. It's identified with the Rebel Alliance in Episodes IV-VI, and that doesn't exist in the prequels. The "Imperial motif" discussed earlier in the thread, which Neil felt should have been utilized in AOTC, is actually an inverted minor version of the Rebel fanfare.

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Just to chime in: there's nothing wrong with the use of the main title music or the end credits music. It's all for continuity's sake.

And if you think about it, there are Rebels in TPM and AOTC: those who are fighting against the Separatists. Which just happen to be the Jedi (and Padme and her staff).

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Just to chime in: there's nothing wrong with the use of the main title music or the end credits music. It's all for continuity's sake.

And if you think about it, there are Rebels in TPM and AOTC: those who are fighting against the Separatists. Which just happen to be the Jedi (and Padme and her staff).

Yeah, but their thmee is not that :(

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The End credits starting with Lukes Theme(which I consider the general Star Wars theme),then the "Rebel" fanfare,then again Luke's theme played fast(I love the intro into it)is as much a classic as the opening crawl music.

K.M.

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I think its' level 12 in Force Commander that has a fantastic version of the Imperial March with an industrial metal edge to it. It sounds quite good, and I'm not even a fan of that kind of music.

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  • 1 year later...

Neil, I appreciate your post a great deal, but I respectfully disagree with your take on Vader in Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope, so I'd like to share with those here my response to your repost of this at the FSM board. To all those wondering who I am, well... I guess I'm a new poster! Hi, everyone. I've lurked a bit, but this is my first post on these boards.

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I think you tremendously overstate Vader's "lack of authority" in the original film. He's still clearly one of the very highest-ranking people in the Empire, and feels no trepidation about dealing with high-ranking Imperials like Motti in the manner to which we've become accustomed. His exchanges with Tarkin have a bit of give-and-take. And his hands-on engagement in combat actions are simply part and parcel of his characterization as a fallen Jedi warrior. It wouldn't make sense for Tarkin to fly into combat, but it would for Vader, a more adept pilot than any ordinary pilot, and one who does so because he chooses to do so, not because Tarkin says so (similarly, he personally takes troops into Echo Base on Hoth. This is principally because of his personal obsession with capturing Luke, of course, but it's still noteworthy for this conversation).

One may safely assume Imperials by-and-large at the time of A New Hope have much the same fear for Vader; it's just that the film narrative never provides quite the same opportunity to depict it that The Empire Strikes Back does (the novelization of the original film, published six months before the film's release, describes the fear rank-and-file Imperials hold for the Dark Lord, so clearly it was intended to be part of the characterization, even if not explicitly so).

Motti's "standing up" to Vader is hardly typical; it comes across more as plain stupidity (of a sort not entirely dissimilar to that demonstrated in Empire by Ozzel, who dares question Vader's insistence the Rebels are on Hoth). Motti's brief display in the conference room is done in the presence of Tarkin; I seriously doubt he'd take the same tone with Vader alone. Yes, it's indeed true Vader has perhaps ascended somewhat by the time of Empire (and why not? The officers closest to his rank from the original all perished in the Death Star's conflagration; he's the only guy left at that level. Besides, the Death Star was the Death Star, practically a small planet; of course it'd have a lot of highly-placed persons running it. The Executor, big though it is, is a hell of a lot smaller than the Death Star), but to describe his role in the original as having a "lack of authority" and only later becoming someone "not to be messed with" is grossly misleading (what, do you think Vader in A New Hope is someone you can safely mess with??).

Besides all this, Vader is important in all the movies not because of his rank within the Empire, but because of significance to the story, from his relationships to Luke, Leia and Obi-Wan. Whether he gets a theme or not has nothing to do with what rank he has; Artoo and Threepio have a signature motif, and they're the lowliest principal characters in the trilogy in terms of their social standing within that universe.

The real reason the Imperial March isn't in the first film is that Williams simply hadn't composed it yet. It wasn't necessary for the original film, true, but it wouldn't necessarily have been totally out of place there, either. It's not as though Williams came up with it in '76 but deliberately held it back until he thought Vader was ready for it. It's just one of the new themes Williams came up with for The Empire Strikes Back, and he saw fit to use it again in future installments of the saga (falling both after and before Empire in the series chronology) whenever appropriate.

Now, I originally wrote that its use in the prequels so far is entirely appropriate, being used as it is to foreshadow the events of the classic trilogy (and certainly, it's no more inappropriate in its use there than the use of Leia's theme when Obi-Wan is killed, or Yoda's theme during the heroes' escape from Cloud City, both of which can be validated in terms of the relationships held between the significance and relationships of the characters represented by the themes to those in those scenes, and vice versa), but on reflection I'm not so sure you're completely wrong on this. I do think there's some legitimate room for quoting the march in those instances in the prequels, but I'm not sure how prominent it should be. I just think you seriously understate Vader's significance in the original film.

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Damn, at first, I thought this was a new thread!

I concur with Roque, "It's only a theme." And it's only a theme from a bad movie. Why all the commotion? George or Williams had to make a choice. They simply went for maximum impact. They chose "Imperial March."

Imperial March = Maximum Impact. That way nobody would miss the link with the evil to come.

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Alex Cremers

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Damn, at first, I thought this was a new thread!

I concur with Roque, "It's only a theme." And it's only a theme from a bad movie. Why all the commotion? George or Williams had to make a choice. They simply went for maximum impact. They chose "Imperial March."

Imperial March = Maximum Impact.  That way nobody would miss the link with the evil to come.  

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Alex Cremers

Could specify exactly which movie and which scene your talking about?

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 Could specify exactly which movie and which scene your talking about?

This thread is about whether it is wrong or right about the usage of The Emperial March before Vader, as a character, even exists. Especially when the theme is played in "full blast".

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Alex Cremers

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he personally takes troops into Echo Base on Hoth. This is principally because of his personal obsession with capturing Luke, of course, but it's still noteworthy for this conversation

After all the dirty work was done by the crew with the AT-AT's ("Yes, Lord Vader. I've reached the main power generators. The shield will be down in moments. You may start your landing.").

I really wish they had developed the Imperial motif from Star Wars and turned that into something. And I'm still convinced that Williams' plan of slowly developing Anakin's theme into The Imperial March is totally negated by the premature use of it at the end of AOTC.

Neil

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You said that it's only a theme from a bad movie- you think ESB is a bad movie?

Ah yes, now I see. No no no no! That's not what I meant. Indysolo's post was mainly about AOTC and how wrong it was to use The Imperial March in it. He's probably right but I'm saying, "Who cares?", "It's only a theme in a bad movie."

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Alex Cremers

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After all the dirty work was done by the crew with the AT-AT's ("Yes, Lord Vader.  I've reached the main power generators.  The shield will be down in moments.  You may start your landing.").

I really wish they had developed the Imperial motif from Star Wars and turned that into something.  And I'm still convinced that Williams' plan of slowly developing Anakin's theme into The Imperial March is totally negated by the premature use of it at the end of AOTC.

Neil

I thought I read somewhere that Williams did originally write some other bombastic ending for AOTC without using DVs theme but that it was Lucas who wanted to include a full blown Imperial March.

I would like to have seen the Trade Federation march used instead with perhaps very subtle hints at the Imperial March. Like the way Williams used Jabba's Theme during the podrace fanfare, I didn't notice it the first couple times I listened to it.

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Although I would have preferred to leave the Imperial March out of the finale of AotC, let's look at what it does. In ESB, the character of the Empire and the character of Darth Vader were intertwined in one descriptive theme.

In AotC, the plot is basically how these two forces developed into power and evil, so I could see perfect rationale for linking their themes. If you didn't ever see the original trilogy and you noticed, you might say to yourself, "hmm, what's the connection between the unfortunate development of this army and war, and the turning of this jedi kid to anger?" Their fates are linked, and they share the same motivation for their descent - revenge, power. The Emperor is in it for some kind of revenge against the Jedi (Maul revealed this in his only line). Anakin embraced revenge when he first embraced the dark side. They both want to be all powerful. These are the types of issues the prequels deal with, which is quite interesting and full of morality. I think it would be more interesting to watch this unfold if we didn't know about the original trilogy.

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"A man by the name of Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

Some people have interpreted this into believing there will be an assassination montage starring Vader in Episode III. But it could just mean that he helped in another way, rather than single handedly killing them. They imagine Vader hunting them down like Predator or something and they say how awesome it will be to finally see that. These seem to be the same people who thought it was impossible for Anakin to cry in the prequels, since he was supposed to turn into the embodiment of evil. Well, to those of you who think that way, I highly doubt that that is what the quote meant to say and I wouldn't get my hopes up that it will be the "redeeming" moment of the prequels. Maybe he just points out their location and they all get blown up. The important thing is to see the motivations behind the evil, not the evil acts themselves.

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I agree Neil, though I think the Imperial March also represents the dark side of the Force (along with the Emperor's Theme), that's why they used it in Attack of the Clones. I'm also not entirely sure if it actually is Darth Vader's theme, though it has been called that many times before. After all, the Force theme was called Luke's theme as well.

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I'm also not entirely sure if it actually is Darth Vader's theme

Look on the back of the CD or LP of the score. The track is called "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)".

Neil

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True,and Williams did say Vader or Tarkin didn't deserve a theme of their own in Star Wars.

And it's doubtful we'll never hear the truth from Williams,he's too restrained in interviews and carefull not to contradict Lucas.In a Star Wars Insider interview he did say The Imperial March was appropriate for the end of AotC,even though we know he wrote something else originally.He probably got the same instructions from Lucas as he did for the Sail Barge assault music...just re-hash old themes.

K.M.Who hates to be reminded of how much he wants to hear the original finale of AotC

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Gizmo2k4 wrote:

I'm also not entirely sure if it actually is Darth Vader's theme

Look on the back of the CD or LP of the score. The track is called "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)".  

Neil

Neil slams dunks this thread into oblivion, by stating the "FACT" that the Imperial March is Darth Vader's theme, absolutely no question about it. It had no place in AOTC

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And as for Vader,he's THE apprentice Sith Lord of the Emperor.Surely he has more hidden powers than Tarkin.I still say he's on the Death Star to make sure Tarkin does not get to "ambitious".Perhaps this will be explained in Ep.3

K.M.

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And as for Vader,he's THE apprentice Sith Lord of the Emperor.Surely he has more hidden powers than Tarkin.I still say he's on the Death Star to make sure Tarkin does not get to "ambitious".Perhaps this will be explained in Ep.3

K.M.

Yeah, he's the Emperor's liasion on the Death Star.

Neil

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Maximum impact! Maximum impact for the new generation fans. They can't risk people in theatres looking at each other, with their eyebrows all raised up, thinking what music it is they're hearing. Wiliams was already slowly building it up with the interpolation of The Imperial March in Anakin's theme.

Also, The Imperial March theme has become more important. If Georgie plans to do another trilogy (VII-VIII-IX) be sure to expect to hear more of this theme. Oh noooooo! They build another Death Star!!! Ta Ta Ta Ta'tata Ta'tata.

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Alex Cremers

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I really wish they had developed the Imperial motif from Star Wars and turned that into something.

Yeah, but then the imperial march is certainly based on it.

I'm still convinced that Williams' plan of slowly developing Anakin's theme into The Imperial March is totally negated by the premature use of it at the end of AOTC.

He could always just ignore that scene.

Look on the back of the CD or LP of the score. The track is called "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)".

Yes, much like Hedwigs theme. :(

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I don't get all the disscussions here. it was established in RoTJ the the Imperial March is both Darth Vader's theme and the official Empire theme, but as the Empire is usually personofied by the Emperor, you have the Emperor's theme instead. The scene where the Imperial March worked best in the original trilogy was not for Vader, but when the Emperor arrives.

And I know of two uses of the Imperial March in each of the prequals, IMO used perfectly. Im TPM, first of all Anakin's theme, it's used brilliantly to construct the story of Anakin Skywalker. I can hear his whole story there, ending with him going over to the dark side. Same thing in the scene with Yoda- I get this chill down my spine everytime I hear those nine notes of the Imperial March, when Yoda talks about the future.

And in AoTC, the first one the I know of is when he says "I hate them....", and although the scene sucks, Williams is true to the story, and tells us that this is a major factor in his giving in to Palpatine.

And the second one, at the end, I think is the best use of the Imperial March ever, played the best. I've temped the scene with several other pieces of music from Star Wars, including the Emperor's theme, and still the IM works best. Without it, it seems like just another wrap up scene, with the head and representatvies of the senate overviewing the Republic's army. But that music, played gloriously, tells you that this is Emperor Palpatine, with his entorage/ henchmen, watching the storm troopers getting ready for the next battle.

And I don't think there's any problem with Williams using themes theoretically written for events that have not yet occured in the Star Wars series, as the music works 10 times better with that knowledge. I think that TPM is by far the best work with themes that Williams has done. It is a complex, yet very cohesive piece.

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I don't get all the disscussions here. it was established in RoTK the the Imperial March is both Darth Vader's theme and the official Empire theme

I don't get it! What? Where? How? When? Why? :(

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Alex Cremers

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I don't get all the disscussions here. it was established in RoTK the the Imperial March is both Darth Vader's theme and the official Empire theme

OMG, Howard Shore is using Darth Vader's theme in ROTK, wow, but how is he getting a best original score nomination when he is "borrowing" from the master.

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In the prequels, the vader/imperial theme is being employed the same way Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Mahler used their "fate" themes in Symphonies 5, 5 and 6 respectively. They all have that low tolling quality of impending doom.

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I don't get all the disscussions here. it was established in RoTK the the Imperial March is both Darth Vader's theme and the official Empire theme

OMG, Howard Shore is using Darth Vader's theme in ROTK, wow, but how is he getting a best original score nomination when he is "borrowing" from the master.

Sorry, I'm in a LoTR mind set and J and K are right next to each other. (I was wondering what Alex was talking about!)

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OMG, Howard Shore is using Darth Vader's theme in ROTK, wow, but how is he getting a best original score nomination when he is "borrowing" from the master.

Ohh, and who did the master borrow from? :)

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I think Morlock has been punished enough now, Morn. Let him be! Forgive and forget!

Ooh, I see, now we're attacking the master. Leave Williams' borrowings out of it. Worship and admire!

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Alex Cremers

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Williams didn't borrow music, but borrowed style and feel. And Holst and Prokofiev are the best people for Star Wars. And he never tried to hide it- like Horner does.

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Morlock, you're just a Williams fanatic. :)

Of course Williams borrowing don't compare to Horner... but they exist. :P

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I mean that Williams acknowledges it, while Horner has said manytimes, to very direct questions, that he always comes up with new stuff and doesn't reference himself or anyone else.

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I mean that Williams acknowledges it, while Horner has said manytimes, to very direct questions, that he always comes up with new stuff and doesn't reference himself or anyone else.

You're saying Willams acknowledges borrowing style or actual musical content. Do you have any actual quotes on this?

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You're saying Willams acknowledges borrowing style or actual musical content. Do you have any actual quotes on this?

How can you borrow style or musical content?

Borrowing means that you take something, and give it back later.

The sentence should be:

You're saying Willams acknowledges copying style or actual musical content. Do you have any actual quotes on this?

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A good point. I used the word ?borrowed? b/c Morlock did, but a lot of people are afraid to use the work ?copied? when than that?s what they?re really accusing someone of.

I would still be curious to see the purported JW quotes.

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Well in interviews Williams has said to be inspired by certain composers.

The Star Wars Main Title has deliberate similarities with a theme from King's Row, by Korngold, and Williams uses a 4 note motif from Psycho as an homage to Herrmann.

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Right- musical quotations or intentional melodic references are one thing esp. incorporated into a piece for symbolic purposes. BIG difference in that and copying.

There may be a fine line there, but I think there definitely is a line.

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