The Most Underrated John Williams Score # 9

[Sandor 459]

I've compiled a list of the 10 most underrated scores by Williams.

The term "underrated" is in my opinion mostly subjected to personal taste. There are no "official" or factual ways to determine whether a score is "underrated" or "rightfully appreciated".

In that sense, a singular score can be viewed as 'underrated' by one group, and 'overrated' by others (Saving Private Ryan comes to mind).

When labelling a score "underrated" one uses various, different criteria to come to that determination.

I've used the following:

The underrated scores in my list have had little to no recognition during Award ceremonies (the Academy Awards, Grammy Awards, etc.) In fact, some of these scores have not even been nominated.

Also, the underrated scores in my list are seldomly discussed by (film) music fanatics, and are not part of the body of scores that the general public associates with 'the great John Williams scores'.

So, that's it. Here we go.

THE MOST UNDERRATED JOHN WILLIAMS SCORE # 9 - STAR WARS EPISODE III REVENGE OF THE SITH

I already know that some of you will react like this "WTF??!" for various reasons.

In all honesty, ROTS is one of the very best John Williams scores from the new millennium and is a quite overlooked gem. Probably because of the overall negative reactions concerning the Prequel Trilogy, or because some people think this score is solely defined by Battle Of The Heroes.

Others may share my opinion of the score, and will not consider it to be underrated at all. Considering the lack of nominations, and the overall cold reception the score got, I've decided to include it in what I consider "the top 10 most underrated John Williams scores".

What POA was for HP, ROTS is for the Star Wars Prequels. ROTS is one of those scores that introduces countless musical ideas, motifs, set-pieces and themes. It provides arguably the darkest passages for the Star Wars saga, and with stand-alone tracks like Anakin's Betrayal, Anakin's Dark Deeds, The Immolation Scene, etc. it is an impressive soundtrack.

Sure, there is a lot of repeated material (like the Qui-Gon Funeral music), but in most cases, the performances of ROTS outclass any previous recorded version.

What I love about the score are the small inclusions: the militaristic Force Theme rendition in the opening track, General Grievous' Theme, the Force Theme accentuated by choral backing in Battle Of The Heroes and Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, the beautiful version of Luke's Theme in the finale, etc. That list would go on and on.

ROTS is not just an underrated score - it's an underrated masterpiece. It's my third favorite Star Wars score.

[Richard Penna 2,083]

Well it doesn't help that the album presentation pretty much sucks, with the much talked about senseless editing and exclusions.

However, I went crazy over this score when it first came out (even pre-ordered the CD when it leaked early online) and as a complete listen it works pretty well. The quieter material is actually quite relaxing in a weird sort of way, and the main action tracks at the end really do get the adrenalin up

[indy4 152]

I agree with Roald. Almost all the prequel scores are incredibly underrated, this is my second favorite star wars score ever.

[Sandor 459]

Well it doesn't help that the album presentation pretty much sucks, with the much talked about senseless editing and exclusions.

Ofcourse, I'm referring to the score as heard in the film, not the soundtrack album (although I included a picture of it....)

[JoeinAR 1,759]

underrated NO WAY IN HELL.

Much of it is from Star Wars.

Not one of John's best, or most underrated.

but thanks for the laugh.

[Sandor 459]

Much of it is from Star Wars.

And with "much" you still refer to the end credits suite only, right...?

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Again with the negativism Joey. Always coming into threads with your negative thoughts.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

its negative kdog, to state the truth, the best part of this score is from Star Wars.

Battle of the Heroes is almost as weak as the AOTC love theme

perhaps you should look for my thread and post that praise things there are many, but you won't find them among the wasted posts and threads about zimmer or johns mediocre or bad scores,

Joe, waiting for Aotc to be among the top 10. :puke:

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I am forced to agree with JoeinAr here.

ROTS feels like reheated left overs mixed with music that tries to be dramatic, but lacks any real heart and soul.

I honestly think Williams tried his best, but the except for a few highlight, the score just does not impress me.

Also, all the reused stuff, either from SW, TESB or TPM, I don't care wether it's Lucas or Williams' fault. It just bugs the hell out of me and takes me out of the score.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Same here.

[Ollie 859]

Yep me too.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

We all must dislike it just because John Williams didn't score it!!!

[Ollie 859]

You in the right thread?

[Red 73]

I can buy that, but The Phantom Menace is better (best of the Prequels).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

I will have to join Steef, Joe, Ray, and Mark.

[indy4 152]

I agree that it's stupid when they drag music out of previous SW films, but the original score is a masterpiece!

Anakin's Betrayal is one of the most depressing cues I've ever heard (and I mean that in a good way). Battle of the Heroes hauntingly tells the tradgic tale of Anakin Skywalker's transformation into Darth Vader. The first few seconds of Anakin's Dream are some of the most passionate and melancholy minutes written in the 2000s - a couple's last moments of peace and love, before they are plunged into the cold territories of betrayal and confusion. Palpatine's Teachings is a very disturbing and creepy, suspense filled piece. Anakin's Dark Deeds, whilst having a sucky title, is filled with evil and cruelty. Anakin v.s. Obi-wan is first and foremost an action piece, but there is plenty of emotion hidden in there. The variations of BOTH represent the crumbling brotherhood that once linked Anakin with Obi-Wan. It's a shame it wasn't completely released.Padme's Ruminations captures all the stress and worry that Anakin and Padme have towards their relationship, the stress that will ultimately change a hero to a villain, a democracy to a dictatorship, and a friend to an enemy.

Then there's all the rest: the brilliant and bountiful variations of the Force Theme heard throughout the movie, Grevious's evil fanfare, the rollicking action of General Grevious(while addmitedly isn't nearly as good as The Asteroid Field is still a great piece. In fact, the only track that I don't like on this soundtrack is Grevious and the Droids.

It may not sound much like a SW score, but it certainly deserves praise and acolades.

[King Mark 2,924]

It's one of my favourite recent Williams scores.I find it superior to PoA

I wasn't in love with the album when it first came out,but I knew this might be a TPM OST kind of deal,and it was .On the OST the re-recorded music stands out as like a sore thumb,not so much in the expanded score.Of course I still don't like the inclusion of GuiGon's Funeral and Throne Room,but there's more than enough music to compensate

After countless hours of editing an expanded score together,I can say it's a great score.I chop off the Throne Room in my edit

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Its my favorite of the prequel scores.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Everyone needs to stop analyzing scores to the full extent and comparing every little detail to past Williams gems. We live in a completely different time for film and scores, of course he isn't going to compose the same as he did 20 years ago. It's a great score, better than a lot of the other stuff that comes out these days.

[SeekUYoda 0]

I confess I haven't looked to see what underrated scores 1-8 were. But I agree with you on this one. It's definitely my favorite recent Williams score.

I've said this before, and I will continue saying it because I just can't get enough of this cue - the last 30 seconds or so of Anakin's Dark Deeds (as heard in the film, after Obi-Wan says "Anakin has turned to the dark side," up until the shot of Anakin on Mustafar with tears on his face) ) is Complete. Brilliance. It's some of my favorite Williams, period. If you strand me on a desert island with only 5 minutes to pick the music I get to take (OK, so it's implausible), I want that cue with me.

And can you imagine what we might have gotten if he'd gotten to score Anakin & Obi-Wan's battle all the way through, without constantly cutting back to Yoda & the Emperor? A long, really well-developed "Battle of the Heroes" with the exciting start we hear in the score growing to who knows where? Alas that we'll never know.

Grievous' fanfare is exciting, fitting, and a great use of the power of a unison trombone section in at least one place during the score.

I was disappointed to hear the Cloud City music show up in there, but I didn't mind Qui-Gon's funeral so much since we get a nice alternate version at Padme's funeral procession. Not so much for me and the Throne Room on the album. And I love, love, LOVE the use of Luke's theme as a leitmotif instead of an action cue (the rich strings - what great harmonies) when Obi-Wan hands Luke off to Beru. I was expecting the now-familiar Force theme/sunset combination, but not Luke's theme....

The score's highlights are really highlights, and the rest of the score is very enjoyable, and I think it's perfect for the film. I certainly listen to it more than TPM and AOTC put together because it feels much more like Ep 4-6.

And did I mention that I love "Anakin's Dark Deeds"?

[indy4 152]

I confess I haven't looked to see what underrated scores 1-8 were.

Roald's counting down. You've only missed #10.

I was disappointed to hear the Cloud City music show up in there

When?

[Henry B 49]

What POA was for HP, ROTS is for the Star Wars Prequels.

Hahaha.

Sure, there is a lot of repeated material (like the Qui-Gon Funeral music), but in most cases, the performances of ROTS outclass any previous recorded version.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Man, Williams and the LSO were ASLEEP on the end credits suite. Leia's Theme might have come out all right (remember that documentary in which the LSO actually applauded Williams after finishing the first take of the piece?), but the credits and "Throne Room" just suck my balls. So bad.

As for the original music, beyond the cheesy, stereotypical action stuff, "Anakin's Dream" stands out as an excellent track.

[SeekUYoda 0]

I confess I haven't looked to see what underrated scores 1-8 were.

Roald's counting down. You've only missed #10.

See, I really haven't been paying attention. I confessed already!

I was disappointed to hear the Cloud City music show up in there

When?

Somewhere during Anakin vs Obi-Wan. It's originally the music from when Luke & Vader are dueling and Vader's Force-throwing things at Luke and then he gets sucked out the window.

[John Crichton 4]

It's one of my favourite recent Williams scores.I find it superior to PoA

I wasn't in love with the album when it first came out,but I knew this might be a TPM OST kind of deal,and it was .On the OST the re-recorded music stands out as like a sore thumb,not so much in the expanded score.Of course I still don't like the inclusion of GuiGon's Funeral and Throne Room,but there's more than enough music to compensate

After countless hours of editing an expanded score together,I can say it's a great score.I chop off the Throne Room in my edit

I'll second all that. The trio of "Anakin's" cues are particularly superb, with Anakin's Betrayal (or Lament, as I still prefer to call it) topping the lot as Williams' best emotional and choral cue in quite a while.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

The only track I would consider excellent or stand out would be "Goodbye Old Friend" and that's not even on the actual album.

That was a home-run for Williams.

[King Mark 2,924]

A long, really well-developed "Battle of the Heroes" with the exciting start we hear in the score growing to who knows where? Alas that we'll never know.

Well,we do actually.I think of ObiWan vs Anakin,The Boys Continue and Battle of the Heroes as one long cue.Unless you are missing The Boy Continue,it's the theme is developped enough

[indy4 152]

The only track I would consider excellent or stand out would be "Goodbye Old Friend" and that's not even on the actual album.

That was a home-run for Williams.

The whole score was a grand-slam for Williams.

[Romão 1,931]

Fantastic score by Williams, with tons of highlights and an incredible listen in the complete format. Many posts in this thread really show how underrated this score is in my view. There is much more to it than Battle of the Heroes. Enter Lord Vader, for example, is just an great example of totally original scoring in a very effective and evocative way.

[Henry B 49]

"Enter Lord Vader" is one of the better tracks, but it's not quite there. It falls short of being very good.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Everyone needs to stop analyzing scores to the full extent and comparing every little detail to past Williams gems. We live in a completely different time for film and scores, of course he isn't going to compose the same as he did 20 years ago. It's a great score, better than a lot of the other stuff that comes out these days.

its not a great score, it is a mediocre score, made even more hauntingly sad because he does use music from Star Wars, and when that movie music puts everything else before it to shame it really stands out. I could agree with the comparing every little detail to past Williams gems, if the past William gem wasn't part of the score, so in essense your post is self defeating in its attempt to argue.

and again Battle of the Heroes is inappropriately titled as there is only one hero, OB1

[Romão 1,931]

I'm sorry, Joe, but even if you don't think ROTS is a great score, an opinion I can fully respect, call it mediocre is just blind negativity, in my view.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Were you not expecting to hear Star Wars in the score? Why would he not use it, it is a Star Wars film after all. That's like you expecting Indy 4 to not have the Raiders' March in it.

[indy4 152]

Indeed (to both Merkel and koray)!

[Richard Penna 2,083]

Indeed (to both Merkel and koray)!

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

Bah, the score rules.

What is the deal with Qui-gon's funeral?

It did not feature (dissapointly IMO) Qui-Gon's theme in TPM. So, then why cant it be a Naboo funeral chant?

'Return to naboo' is another matter entirely.

And, joe your remark about 'Only one Hero':

Well its 'the raiders march'. But definately its not a march for the nazis. And they are even more raiders than indy.

[Sandor 459]

And, joe your remark about 'Only one Hero':

Well its 'the raiders march'. But definately its not a march for the nazis. And they are even more raiders than indy.

Yeah, and who really still regards Hedwig's Theme as a theme merely for a cowardly owl?

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

And, joe your remark about 'Only one Hero':

Well its 'the raiders march'. But definately its not a march for the nazis. And they are even more raiders than indy.

Yeah, and who really still regards Hedwig's Theme as a theme merely for a cowardly owl?

Big owls are pretty agressive though.

You dont want to try grabing one without leather gloves...

[Sandor 459]

I was merely referring to Harry's owl. Not owls in general.

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

I was merely referring to Harry's owl. Not owls in general.

So it is portrayed as a coward? Meh

Harry could have had an ostrich if rowling wanted a shy beast...

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Hedwig was a brave, noble bird!

(Deathly Hallows spoiler )

[Ollie 859]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Something happened between TPM and AOTC that affected the music. Either Williams became bored or couldn't find anything to inpire him in the last two films, upset with Lucas over what happened on TPM with Duel of the Fates or just ran out of "magic" when it came to composing because there is a big noticable difference in the qaulity and how the music was handled in the last two films.

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

I would say only AOTC suffered from that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I would say that I disagree with that.

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

I would say that you can say what you want

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Interestingly Roald has not replied to my arguments. This usually means I have persuaded him.

Very good!

[Sandor 459]

Don't worry. The response is coming.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Geez I'm getting worried here...

(please detect the sarcasm)

[Sandor 459]

OK, here's my defense if you will:

I am forced to agree with JoeinAr here.

Of course you are.

ROTS feels like reheated left overs mixed with music that tries to be dramatic, but lacks any real heart and soul.

The music for ROTS IS dramatic. Lacks heart and soul? That is personal of course, but I think that Anakin's Betrayal, Anakin's Dream, The Immolation Scene, Anakin's Dark Deeds (especially the last part), the funeral scene, etc., etc. have heart and soul in abundance. It's beautiful and dark at the same time.

Also, all the reused stuff, either from SW, TESB or TPM, I don't care wether it's Lucas or Williams' fault. It just bugs the hell out of me and takes me out of the score.

Stefan, Joey and some others seem to live with the idea that ROTS is FULL of re-used stuff. I really don't know what score you heard, but I heard mostly a new, vibrant score.

When ESB came out, Variety complained that it was a rehash of Star Wars. Go figure.

I'm not saying that putting a recording from TPM in ROTS was a brilliant move. Nor was adding the Throne Room to the finale perse.

BUT there is WEALTH of NEW material in ROTS (the most part of course!), that I really don't see the need or point to focus so much attention on 10 minutes out of a 100 minute score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Sight, once again the breeze of insanity has hit Roald with a vengeance.

I never stated that ROTS was full of re-used stuff. But you have to admit, much of the stuff that is re-used is on the CD, which is my main reference point since I don't feel like watching the film again.

Anakin's Betrayal feels very dramatic and tragic, but since it was scored for a scene were a bunch of characters we did not know were being killed by a bunch of other characters, most of them CGI. Williams was not able to give it any real personality. It's technically flawless, but IMO also technically flavourless.

The same goes with a lot of the other music. It lacks character. BOTH is not a particulary strong theme. I cannot carry the whole score and is a step back in size and scope from DOTF.

I seem to remember the only moments when I was perked up in my seat at the cinema was when there was a new variation of The Force Theme, which was given a new lease of life in this score.

[MrScratch 292]

Anakin's Betrayal, Anakin's Dream, The Immolation Scene, Anakin's Dark Deeds

Those are undoubtedtly the best cues, but there is little else of interest. I agree that BOTH is a very weak theme and the fact that we don't hear it until the final act of the final movie in the series doesn't help either.