Dennis the Menace

[Josh500 1,615]

Okay, people here will think I live for those John Hughes comedies (and I do not!), but by coincidence I got my hands on Jerry Goldsmith's original

soundtrack of Dennis the Menace yesterday. Does anyone have it? What do you think of it?

While the movie is forgettable, I thought JG's score was fun when I saw the movie on TV many years ago, so I took a chance and shelled out 8 Euros for the CD (they wanted 10 Euros, but I dickered). I love the main theme . . . it's like JG is just having a great time writing this. One of his most upbeat works, if I'm not mistaken. Not on the same level as Home Alone, of course, but it's pretty solid, IMHO. I especially love Dennis's Main Theme and Mr. Wilson's Theme.

I'm not a JG collector, but I have listened to quite a few of his works, and one thing I notice is that what he writes is pretty much all you hear from the getgo. It's not like with JW, when you listen to something for the twentieth time and you still keep discovering something new. There's not a whole many layers in JG's works. Does anyone agree/disagree with me?

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

There's not a whole many layers in JG's works. Does anyone agree/disagree with me?

Boy yes.

Have you heard *any* of the big Goldsmith scores?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

its a well known fact that goldsmith writes in a more linear way than JW. not exactly a bad thing tho

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sure he hasn't.

Total Recall has so many layers that's it's staggering.

[Josh500 1,615]

its a well known fact that goldsmith writes in a more linear way than JW. not exactly a bad thing tho

It wasn't meant as a criticism. It's just a different style, that's all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but your statement is incorrect when applied to many of his scores.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes, but your statement is incorrect when applied to many of his scores.

Didn't JG say that Total Recall contains the most notes he has ever written for a single score? So that's rather an exception, isn't it?

Well, like I said, I'm by no means a JG expert. I have heard many scores in the movies, but I own only a dozen or so on CD. So those of you who DO have most of the albums, enlighten me please.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Basic Instinct has many layers. Poltergeist has many layers his Rambo scores have many layers, TMP is very layered...etc...etc...

[Marcus 390]

Well, this depends on what kind of layers one refers to.

Texturally, in his more straightforward tonal writing, Jerry Goldsmith generally wrote much, much simpler music than John Williams.

I've always found Goldsmith's take on tonal harmony to be the weakest element in his writing; at its worst, it has a sort of pop-ish flatness to it, and this stylistic trait became more and more prominent during the late 80's and 90's. (I think this could very much be a natural response to the films he scored; he "captured" them very perfectly in musical terms, for better and sometimes for worse...)

However:

It is in terms of conceptuality that Jerry Goldsmith was such a remarkable and utterly brilliant composer, and often even in the seemingly simplistic music (again, all of it still has more complexity and depth than most film music written today by all the lesser composers out there, which are legio, unfortunately...), there will be layers of structural/conceptual/"metaphorical" significance.

Also, as a non-tonal writer (and I believe Goldsmith, at least for a time, considered himself to be a mostly "atonal"/serial composer), he would write music of great complexity, and more importantly, great lucidity.

There is a staggering amount of thought behind his musical decisions, and constructions.

But an important aesthetic difference between Goldsmith's and Williams' approaches to their art, is that Goldsmith at heart was a post-modern, eclectic composer who would think of style as a compositional tool in of itself.

Not to say that Williams hasn't written music in different styles, especially in his early days, nor to say that Goldmith doesn't have a strong and clear musical signature throughout his ouvre, but Williams is a classicist; an artist who seems to believe in the cultivation of unity and articulation, of creating a universe of completeness, rather than jumping from universe to universe.

Sure, there is a difference between some of his film fanfares and his most complex concert music, but they aren't incongruous, they seem to belong to the same universe. Williams has developed a style and a consistency through the years, and through mastering his own language so completely, writes music of both great complexity and clarity at the same time, and probably much more effortlessly than Goldsmith (or rather; it would have taken Goldsmith a lot of work to write in a "Williams" idiom, simply because he would've been used to tonal designs that are much easier both to conceive and to write).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thus Goldsmith is better then Williams!

[Marcus 390]

Thus Goldsmith is better then Williams!

That's also a way to interpret it!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is no interpretation here....

[Josh500 1,615]

Most people will agree that John Williams is the master.

If John Williams were 10 and Hans Zimmer 1, I would place Jerry Goldsmith at 9.

Williams: 10

Goldsmith: 9

Danny Elfman: 7

James Newton Howard: 7

Newman (Thomas): 6

Portman: 6

Zimmer: 1

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Marcus, some may get lost in your museum of intellectual analysis.

[Josh500 1,615]

Marcus, some may get lost in your museum of intellectual analysis.

No, I understand what he's saying, although I don't agree.

Williams writes more complex music, both texturally and in terms of conceptuality. No one can tell me that Jerry Goldsmith wrote more complex music in ANY way than John Wiliams. Needless to say, complexity alone doesn't make you a better composer. But John Williams also happens to write better melodies, better orchestrations, and better motifs.

Still, Jerry Goldsmith would have been the No. 1 film composer . . . if it weren't for John Williams.

My two cents.

[publicist 4,643]

But John Williams also happens to write better melodies, better orchestrations, and better motifs.

That requires a very big IMHO. Let it just be stated that Goldsmith couldn't have written 'Born on the Fourth of July', while Williams couldn't have pulled a 'Gremlins' to save his ass.

The rest of the discussion measures up to stupid fanboy reasoning. What intellectual inferiority complex leads to this 'my idol is better than yours and i can scientifically prove it' nonsense may stay their secret.

[Josh500 1,615]

But John Williams also happens to write better melodies, better orchestrations, and better motifs.

That requires a very big IMHO. Let it just be stated that Goldsmith couldn't have written 'Born on the Fourth of July', while Williams couldn't have pulled a 'Gremlins' to save his ass.

The rest of the discussion measures up to stupid fanboy reasoning. What intellectual inferiority complex leads to this 'my idol is better than yours and i can scientifically prove it' nonsense may stay their secret.

Man you really ARE a Goldsmith fanboy aren't you? No reason to get all sweaty and huffed up!

Of course I'm only saying what I think. I just didn't think it necessary to put an IMHO before every sentence!

[King Mark 3,624]

Goldsmith wrote complex scores untill 1986(legend),that's how I hear it.After that it's pretty much linear and boring,with all the brass clumped together and no strings. Can't compare something like Air force One or Chain Reaction to Poltergeist or Night Crossing

by the mid 90's I wasnt even looking up what scores he was writing for possible c.d. purchase,even though some of his 1978-1986 scores remained on my all time want list.

Dennis the Menace has a nice theme in the Main Title and End Credits....but where is that theme in the rest of the score?

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No strings?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

The strings in later Goldsmith scores are mostly grouped together with the horn section.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hmmm...IMO they often provide the counter line, especially in his action music.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Jerry Goldsmith is the projected winner in Nevada and South Carolina. Steef, what does this mean for the Williams campaign? And will Zimmer be dropping out after a 0.2% vote?

[Delorean90 42]

[publicist 4,643]

Man you really ARE a Goldsmith fanboy aren't you? No reason to get all sweaty and huffed up!

I guess the true fanboy is the one who opens a thread about 'Dennis' and needs about three posts to get to inevitable 'my pet composer writes everything better' point. It's a jerky notion and unfortunately gazillion fanboys seemingly can't live without it...

[Marcus 390]

Marcus, some may get lost in your museum of intellectual analysis.

No, I understand what he's saying, although I don't agree.

Williams writes more complex music, both texturally and in terms of conceptuality. No one can tell me that Jerry Goldsmith wrote more complex music in ANY way than John Wiliams. Needless to say, complexity alone doesn't make you a better composer. But John Williams also happens to write better melodies, better orchestrations, and better motifs.

Still, Jerry Goldsmith would have been the No. 1 film composer . . . if it weren't for John Williams.

My two cents.

So in other words, you don't understand what I mean...

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't being clear at all: I never, ever meant to imply that Williams is "inferior" as a conceptualist, although it gets VERY tiresome to discuss in comparatives,- this isn't a sports contest, and they aren't race horses either!

But Williams is first and foremost conceptual in his material design, meaning how he writes his themes and motifs. He has a very specific idea about exactly what aspect of a character or a situation, or even a location, he intends to convey musically. It is in this respect, and partially for this reason, I think, that his music becomes so incredibly memorable: He is specific, detailed and accurate, where other composers are more general.

Williams would never simply write a "heroic" theme, a "villain" theme, a "tragic" theme, etc., but a theme completely informed by a deeper, more sincere take on the subject at hand.

An immediate example would be Chiyo's theme and Sayuri's theme from Memoirs of a Geisha, the latter theme being a transformation of the former, the way Sayuri is a transformation of Chiyo.

On the surface, Chiyo's theme could easily be "dismissed" as a general lyrical piece of musical orientalism. But it is particularly when seen as the antecedent of Sayuri's theme, that it becomes so strikingly brilliant: It is child-like, innocent, simple and pure, expressed through its rubato character, its frequent presentation in changing meters, and continuously slightly changing ornamentations.

And Sayuri's theme is a stylized version; it has a strict design, it is "formal", and even has a signature "reverse cambiata" (OK, this might be a musical term unfamiliar to many, but it refers to a melodic phrase of two falling notes and a rising one, a standard device of 14th and 15th century polyphony) that seems ever so slightly "strained" or contrived (notice how your voice feels just a tiny bit uncomfortable singing the rising minor second, followed by the falling minor third and major second), much the way a geisha is stylized and formal (also the structural design of the theme is strict and classical (aesthetically, not stylistically), A-B-C-B). (Just so I'm not misinterpreted, I LOVE Sayuri's theme, I think it is one of Williams' finest melodic creations).

Goldsmith's conceptuality was more general (not better, but different): For him, the score is concept, first and foremost, and every decision is secondary to the initial idea of what the score is supposed to be and do (hence "style" as just another parameter).

Just for the record: I certainly believe Williams has a "pre-concept" for his scores, that guides his subsequent decisions. But he has another project alongside any score he writes, which is the cultivation of his craft, the perfection and articulation of his musical universe. This is why, on the whole, Williams' music works better in the concert hall.

[Josh500 1,615]

Man you really ARE a Goldsmith fanboy aren't you? No reason to get all sweaty and huffed up!

I guess the true fanboy is the one who opens a thread about 'Dennis' and needs about three posts to get to inevitable 'my pet composer writes everything better' point. It's a jerky notion and unfortunately gazillion fanboys seemingly can't live without it...

Simmer down, fanboy!

Hey check this out!

Does anyone else think that the minecart chase and the giant boulder was SO stolen from Indiana Jones?

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

Williams writes more complex music, both texturally and in terms of conceptuality. No one can tell me that Jerry Goldsmith wrote more complex music in ANY way than John Wiliams.

(Man you really ARE a Williams fanboy, aren't you?)

Listen to Goldsmith scores like Blue Max or Planet of the Apes. His early writing and his 70s/early 80s scores in particular often are miles ahead of what Williams wrote at that time (at the time of the two scores I pointed out, he was still writing mostly light comedy scores). And you can't tell me that Williams big famous scores (Star Wars, Jaws, Raiders, E.T.) are more complex than the big Goldsmith masterpieces.

It's when Goldsmith concentrated on his late post-Total Recall style that Williams really got the edge - Goldsmith's music became simpler, while Williams' grew in complexity.

But when you limit both composer's works to the fanboy favourites, it's Williams' that are straightforward and more easy to grasp.

[Marcus 390]

Williams writes more complex music, both texturally and in terms of conceptuality. No one can tell me that Jerry Goldsmith wrote more complex music in ANY way than John Wiliams.

(Man you really ARE a Williams fanboy, aren't you?)

Listen to Goldsmith scores like Blue Max or Planet of the Apes. His early writing and his 70s/early 80s scores in particular often are miles ahead of what Williams wrote at that time (at the time of the two scores I pointed out, he was still writing mostly light comedy scores). And you can't tell me that Williams big famous scores (Star Wars, Jaws, Raiders, E.T.) are more complex than the big Goldsmith masterpieces.

It's when Goldsmith concentrated on his late post-Total Recall style that Williams really got the edge - Goldsmith's music became simpler, while Williams' grew in complexity.

But when you limit both composer's works to the fanboy favourites, it's Williams' that are straightforward and more easy to grasp.

True, and not so true.

Goldsmith's tonal writing, even in The Blue Max, is quite simple and square. There's such an interesting dichotomy between his serial and more avant-garde writing, and his tonal structures, and a surprising absence of "middle ground". I guess that's really a great and significant difference between Williams and Goldsmith in terms of style and development.

It seems to me that Williams' true language really mostly exists in a musical terrain that focuses on all pitch material as being somehow tonal; all dissonance relates to a a tonic, a center, there's always (sometimes more, sometimes less) a gravitational pull towards "one".

This is typically apparent on a simple level through the use of bVI as a main cadence point (moreso than V) in most of his harmonic designs, and most of his chordal extensions are not triadic (unless they are poly-triadic), but rather mixtures of secondal, quartal and triadic structures, thus very frequently extending a tonal realm into a dense chromaticism that still feels harmonically grounded.

When Goldmith writes denser harmonies, they tend to "feel" like what they are; something "other than" his strictly tonal harmonies, something foreign.

Goldsmith has his tonal, his quartal, his octatonic and his non-tonal modes; with Williams, they blend into one amalgamation.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Beat that, Josh.

[Josh500 1,615]

Beat that, Josh.

I'm a John Williams fanboy, and proud of it too! That's why, for me, he's better than any other film composer! Done.

P.S. I also love Goldsmith, but not as much as Williams.

[Maglorfin 196]

Gee, I didn't even know that Goldsmith did Dennis the Menace score. Come to think of it, sounds like a title that could some time be released in Varese's Soundtrack Club, doesn't it?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Beat that, Josh.

I'm a John Williams fanboy, and proud of it too! That's why, for me, he's better than any other film composer! Done.

Which gives you absolutely no right at all to call anyone else a fanboy of any sort.

[Red 75]

Indeed! Fanboyism is not a good thing.

[Marcus 390]

Beat that, Josh.

I'm a John Williams fanboy, and proud of it too! That's why, for me, he's better than any other film composer! Done.

P.S. I also love Goldsmith, but not as much as Williams.

I am a little bewildered...

It seems to me that you think I am somehow arguing against Williams, which I am absolutely not!

No composer has meant more to me than Williams, and my comments are not meant as anything but praise, and earnest observations on the work of a composer whose work I've studied very thoroughly, because I am, too, a "fanboy, and proud of it", for the simple reason that I find John Williams to be one of the most outstanding practitioners of his craft that I know of, and an artist of considerable importance, probably moreso than at least he himself is aware of, being such a humble person.

No composer I know of has more eloquently and brilliantly shown the absolute relevance of tradition, or the unlimited possibilities that still exist in tonality.

[Josh500 1,615]

Beat that, Josh.

I'm a John Williams fanboy, and proud of it too! That's why, for me, he's better than any other film composer! Done.

Which gives you absolutely no right at all to call anyone else a fanboy of any sort.

I will call anybody a fanboy if I have that impression! Even you!

Just like I am called that when people think that I am (although I am not, really--I was kidding earlier, in case you missed that).

[Ollie 1,059]

It's amazing that one has to wade thru so much BS posted in some of these threads.

Williams and Goldsmith are perhaps two of the greatest film composers to grace the silver screen. Goldsmith could tackle any type of film and provide the correct score for it. He could have scored Schindler's List, BOTFJ and even Jaws and delivered a top rate score.

If Williams wanted to escape his normal style he could have scored Gremlins, Planet Of The Apes and Star Trek TMP. All one has to do is listen to Heartbeeps, Images and CE3K to grasp that notion.

Both have written very complex works and at the same time streamlined music. Marian is correct, Williams has seemed to push himself while Goldsmith toned down his music.

Dennis the Menace is a nice little score to listen to, a fun theme and while it won't win any awards it makes for a good listen all the way thru. It has some fun musical moments that bring a smile to my face when I'm listening to it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Interesting mix of callow proclamations, stern finger-wagging, and dense jargon. Wish I could offer something insightful to the exchange but can't. Myself, I started off collecting Williams and not appreciating Goldsmith but now enjoy both composers. (Whee.)

A random note: if I recall correctly (and I often don't), publicist wrote for the unashamedly irreverent "Deconstructing Goldsmith" Web site and is hardly an FSM MB-style Goldsmith fanboy in the vein of Dan Hobgood, David Maxx, et al.

[Josh500 1,615]

It's amazing that one has to wade thru so much BS posted in some of these threads.

That's what makes it so much fun here!

Dennis the Menace is a nice little score to listen to, a fun theme and while it won't win any awards it makes for a good listen all the way thru. It has some fun musical moments that bring a smile to my face when I'm listening to it.

Are you telling me that you own this score? So I'm not the only one?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes I have the Dennis score.

[Josh500 1,615]

Dennis the Menace is a nice little score to listen to, a fun theme and while it won't win any awards it makes for a good listen all the way thru. It has some fun musical moments that bring a smile to my face when I'm listening to it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought, too. This score is probably as light-hearted and funny as Jerry Goldsmith ever got.

[Ollie 1,059]

You obviously haven't heard enough Goldsmith.

The Burbs, Gremlins, Explorers, Looney Tunes......

[Josh500 1,615]

You obviously haven't heard enough Goldsmith.

The Burbs, Gremlins, Explorers, Looney Tunes......

I didn't say Dennis the Menace was the only funny score he wrote! But it's certainly one of the most light-hearted ones. . . .

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

Yes I have the Dennis score.

I have it too. When I play it, it's lovely and nice, but hardly memorable. I don't think I've listened to it more than 4 or 5 times so far.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes I have the Dennis score.

I have it too. When I play it, it's lovely and nice, but hardly memorable. I don't think I've listened to it more than 4 or 5 times so far.

I love the first track... I remember being pleasantly surprised when I heard it for the first time in the movie and saw that it was written by JG!

It's nothing special... except that it somehow is!

[Ollie 1,059]

This score is probably as light-hearted and funny as Jerry Goldsmith ever got.

This what you said and I pointed out he has written scores that are just as light hearted and as funny as Dennis.

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

S*P*Y*S

[publicist 4,643]

S*P*Y*S

S*P*Y*S is not light-hearted. If it's anything, it's dangerous to your hearing...So goofy that it hurts <_<

[Romão 2,274]

No composer I know of has more eloquently and brilliantly shown the absolute relevance of tradition, or the unlimited possibilities that still exist in tonality.

That's an absolutely beautiful statement

[Ollie 1,059]

S*P*Y*S

I have a hard time getting thru that score.

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

Me too.