My little Talgorn recommendation...

[publicist 4,484]

Since the dryspell of non-Williams-months isn't going to end soon, it's my duty to remind people here of several new scores by frenchman Frederic Talgorn, hot on the heels of his latest 'Asterix aux jeux Olympiques'.

The 'Asterix' music should come as the most King-Mark-friendly of those, meaning that it's in an idiom very close to Williams' own rambunctious efforts, without just doing the copycat. It's not as densely orchestrated as the Williams of late, but more in keeping with late 70s/early 80s scores.

Samples are easily available under http://www.amazon.fr/Ast%C3%A9rix-Aux-Jeux...p;sr=8-1#disc_1

Especially the 12-minute chariot-race is infecting...

Apart from that: go for 'Moliere' and 'The Red Needles', which are very good, albei more somber efforts, the first reminding me of 'Restoration', the second more of things like 'Angela's Ashes'...

[King Mark 2,924]

The 'Asterix' music should come as the most King-Mark-friendly of those,s'...

Not sure I like the sound of that, but I will check it out

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I'll be seeing the new Astérix this weekend. I'll keep an ear open for the score.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Course de Relais is pure JW.

[Jeshopk 8]

Speaking of Talgorn, I just ordered The Temp on Amazon. A very impressive psychological thriller score rivaling Basic Instinct.

[publicist 4,484]

Speaking of Talgorn, I just ordered The Temp on Amazon. A very impressive psychological thriller score rivaling Basic Instinct.

Talgorn's handling of the orchestra is miles ahead of the current crop of Hollywood composers working today, even prolific ones like Newton-Howard.

While i think his action music is too Williams-y for my liking, he has certainly written pieces (like 'Tyler's Rage' from 'Heavy Metal 2000') which are as good as anything in 'War of the Worlds' and the like.

His sense of the lyrical is astonishing and his scores like 'Le Brasier' and the already mentioned 'Moliere' are a treasure trove of orchestration.

[King Mark 2,924]

I've "found" The Fortress

[publicist 4,484]

I've "found" The Fortress

Which isn't necessarily the best thing to start for you, since it's a dense action score without much happening in the 'themes' department...

[King Mark 2,924]

I'll put the Asterix in my next ipod re-load

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Saw the new Astérix today. Score was pretty good.

Film was huge in scale, but about half an hour too long...

[Romão 1,931]

The score to the previous Asterix movie was quite good, I remember. And you even had the Imperial March in there (though I reckon it was tracked).

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

There's a reference to Gladiator in this one.

I wonder how many people picked up on it. I felt like I was the only one laughing.

[King Mark 2,924]

Who is this crazy person laughing when there is not a joke?

[Marcus 385]

Course de Relais is pure JW.

Well, Rosza, actually, except it isn't nearly as well orchestrated!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Is there anything you do like, Marcus?

[Marcus 385]

Yes!

I am far too fond of chocolate chip cookies, and presently, they have the upper hand, it seems, and I am losing my battle with mycomposer's gut...

No, seriously, Yes!

But very little contemporary film music.

How do you feel about the state of things in your field, craft-wise?

Doesn't it annoy you when mediocrity is lauded as greatness?

[Henry B 49]

Marcus, your regard for music reminds me of that scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams has his students tear the introductions out of their textbooks:

"To fully understand poetry, we must first be fluent with its meter, rhyme and figures of speech, then ask two questions: 1) How artfully has the objective of the poem been rendered and 2) How important is that objective? Question 1 rates the poem's perfection; question 2 rates its importance. And once these questions have been answered, determining the poem's greatness becomes a relatively simple matter.

If the poem's score for perfection is plotted on the horizontal of a graph and its importance is plotted on the vertical, then calculating the total area of the poem yields the measure of its greatness.

A sonnet by Byron might score high on the vertical but only average on the horizontal. A Shakespearean sonnet, on the other hand, would score high both horizontally and vertically, yielding a massive total area, thereby revealing the poem to be truly great. As you proceed through the poetry in this book, practice this rating method. As your ability to evaluate poems in this matter grows, so will, so will your enjoyment and understanding of poetry."

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

In my field, (visual effects etc.), most of us try to judge works as per their intentions and how well they accomplish those intentions, rather than judging them against our personal learned standards.

We don't take a film score and then critique and analyse it as a symphonic classical work.

[Marcus 385]

Marcus, your regard for music reminds me of that scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams has his students tear the introductions out of their textbooks:

"To fully understand poetry, we must first be fluent with its meter, rhyme and figures of speech, then ask two questions: 1) How artfully has the objective of the poem been rendered and 2) How important is that objective? Question 1 rates the poem's perfection; question 2 rates its importance. And once these questions have been answered, determining the poem's greatness becomes a relatively simple matter.

If the poem's score for perfection is plotted on the horizontal of a graph and its importance is plotted on the vertical, then calculating the total area of the poem yields the measure of its greatness.

A sonnet by Byron might score high on the vertical but only average on the horizontal. A Shakespearean sonnet, on the other hand, would score high both horizontally and vertically, yielding a massive total area, thereby revealing the poem to be truly great. As you proceed through the poetry in this book, practice this rating method. As your ability to evaluate poems in this matter grows, so will, so will your enjoyment and understanding of poetry."

Oh please...

And I think you'd be very disappointed if you ever hear Williams talk about music.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

And I think you'd be very disappointed if you ever hear Williams talk about music.

I wonder what a man who is shunned left and right by the classical community would say about music....

[Marcus 385]

In my field, (visual effects etc.), most of us try to judge works as per their intentions and how well they accomplish those intentions, rather than judging them against our personal learned standards.

We don't take a film score and then critique and analyse it as a symphonic classical work.

Which is precisely what I am doing. The difference is, I am a composer, so I judge music that way, and for the most part, in film music, I find that most of the time, it doesn't accomplish those intentions, or doesn't do all that it can do, and should do, nor as beautifully and truthfully as it should.

I believe the craft of writing music for film, and the understanding of audiovisual structures and interrelations, is dwindling...

And I think you'd be very disappointed if you ever hear Williams talk about music.

I wonder what a man who is shunned left and right by the classical community would say about music....

I'm sorry?

I think you'd be surprised at just the kind of esteem and respect Williams enjoys in the classical community.

By the classical community, I mean serious professional musicians, not stuffy professors at second rate conservatories.

[pi 0]

And I think you'd be very disappointed if you ever hear Williams talk about music.

I wonder what a man who is shunned left and right by the classical community would say about music....

I'm sorry?

I think you'd be surprised at just the kind of esteem and respect Williams enjoys in the classical community.

By the classical community, I mean serious professional musicians, not stuffy professors at second rate conservatories.

Marcus, hate to call you out on this but on 90 percent of film scores, the composer has no choice what the music will sound like. In fact the editor/director/producer team spend hours and hours on tweaking the temp score.

Many composers write way below their harmonic level.

[Marcus 385]

And I think you'd be very disappointed if you ever hear Williams talk about music.

I wonder what a man who is shunned left and right by the classical community would say about music....

I'm sorry?

I think you'd be surprised at just the kind of esteem and respect Williams enjoys in the classical community.

By the classical community, I mean serious professional musicians, not stuffy professors at second rate conservatories.

Marcus, hate to call you out on this but on 90 percent of film scores, the composer has no choice what the music will sound like. In fact the editor/director/producer team spend hours and hours on tweaking the temp score.

Many composers write way below their harmonic level.

I'm not talking about stylistic requirements, though, pi.

I think we can cater to the wishes of our directors and producers, while adding something that makes it musically interesting and beautiful as well.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Bleh.

Honestly, I believe that those who study western classical music need to be reminded every now and then that they are studying musical theories...not laws.

[Marcus 385]

Bleh.

Honestly, I believe that those who study western classical music need to be reminded every now and then that they are studying musical theories...not laws.

This might be one of the least intelligent posts I've seen from you, Blumenkohl, simply because you display so very clearly your musical ignorance.

And I don't mean to say that musical awareness or proficiency is a pre-requisite for posting, and music isn't your field anyway, but you should refrain from giving advice from an ill-informed point of view.

"Music Theory" is not a theory, or a set of theories, it is a means of describing the nature and inner logic and workings of music, and a necessary tool in understanding how music works, and how it is written.

It is part of what constitutes musical craftsmanship, the rest being practical experience.

The only thing law-like about it, is that the less you know, the more limited you will be, the more likely your music will be clichéd and trite.

Without knowledge, we are truly feeble.

Without tradition, there's only plagiarism.

[Henry B 49]

That makes no sense.

Seriously.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Basically, what Marcus is telling us is that, something like Chinese folk or Persian classical music is garbage. Why? It does not conform to Marcus' Western Standards for effective music.

Western elitism at its finest.

[scissorhands 16]

He never cited persian, chinese or whatever other music except for western music. Different realities need different scales to be judged, but as we are speaking about Giacchino, Talgorn and film scores in general, and since everything they write follow the musical patterns of western music, those can be analysed with western parameteres. Marcus doesn't show any elitism in his statements, but a well reasoned dissection that you can expect from a well versed person like him.

By the way, more than about effectiveness, he's talking about the intrinsic quality of the music.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

the musical patterns of western music, those can be analysed with western parameteres.

Western film music is not western classical.

One cannot take the principles of one form and apply it to the others to make judgements, and then present them as absolute laws of music. It's ridiculous no matter how you cut it, especially considering that western classical music makes up less than 2% of the world's musical output.

It's like reading a science fiction novel, and judging it by the standards of stream of conscious fiction novels. Yes, it's possible because they overlap in some respects, but don't kid yourself, you're missing the point of the sci-fi novel if you're approaching it from such perspective.

Yes, music for a ballet is written on a far more complex level, with amazing harmonic, rhythmic, whatever else you want to bring up from classical music know-how, but to take a movie like Spider-Man's score and compare it against the Nutcracker is ludicrous. One work is completely reliant on music to provide momentum and dramatic tension, in the other the score is part of an intricate network of stimuli for the audience that have to be perfect just right to create the experience (see Star Wars).

Judge works based on how well they accomplish the goals of their authors, and the strength and value of the author's message, rather than limiting to yourself to the narrow technical guidelines of a single niche. Expand your horizons and learn to find the value and merits in the worst of works (it is a skill, and it must be practiced), rather than turning a blind eye to everything that does not sync with you or your corner of the world's rules.

Believing that one way is the only way, or that one set of standards or one pathway is the only way is not conducive to creativity. If you bottle yourself up in that manner, you will never inspire or create change. You may deliver your purpose, but you will never quite make meaning.

[Marcus 385]

Dear Blumenkohl, I'm not sure it has occured to you, but the message you're actually promoting, is "lower your standards".

I refuse to.

I think all music deserves our very best efforts, always.

As Scissorhands so eloquently pointed out (and by the way, thank you very much, Peio!), I was not speaking of any other music than that which is rooted in, or pretends to be rooted in, a Western classical tradition. Which symphonic, orchestral film music is, or attempts to be, and unfortunately, often isn't, meaning a great many composers in that field have simply "adopted a sound"; but they haven't quite earned it, so the music they write will sound like a poor imitation of a tradition, because they are on the outside looking in, so to speak.

Blumenkohl, do you even know anything about music, beyond your personal tastes?

I am deeply insulted that you dare imply I have a disregard for other, non-western traditions, be they classical or vernacular.

This is hugely disrespectful, contemptuous, and irresponsible of you.

To harbor such sentiments, such ideas, is disgusting to me. I have studied Indian classical music for many years, as well as various other Persian and Asian classical traditions, both in music and poetry (they are sometimes very, very closely linked, as in Qawwali music, for instance).

All I ever meant to say, is that without any true, deep knowledge of craft, we are forced to become imitators. If we lack the tools to penetrate a surface, the surface is all we will see, and think we understand. Therefore, so much curent "symphonic" film music is simply musical props. They are badly drawn backcurtains, vague and imprecise, generic, banal, and ulitimately far less effective than they could be.

Classicism, be it Western, Persian, Korean, Chinese, Japenese, etc, means articulation, and the quest for eloquence and a lasting form.

I don't know what you refer to, Blumenkohl, by your "rules and theories", but I have to say, I get the very distinct feeling that you don't quite do either.

[pi 0]

Marcus is back to his old tricks. I am 100% classically educated to but have learned to let myself to enjoy all sorts of music. You are holding yourself back - that is all, just give in and enjoy the other types of music.

For example, one can admit that shore's score for LOTR is simple, but if that same person is not excited when the grand theme comes when crossing the bridge of khazzad dum, they are the ones missing out.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

"lower your standards"

How about try and not to pigeon hole yourself.

I think all music deserves our very best efforts, always.

True.

As Scissorhands so eloquently pointed out (and by the way, thank you very much, Peio!), I was not speaking of any other music than that which is rooted in, or pretends to be rooted in, a Western classical tradition. Which symphonic, orchestral film music is, or attempts to be, and unfortunately, often isn't, meaning a great many composers in that field have simply "adopted a sound"; but they haven't quite earned it, so the music they write will sound like a poor imitation of a tradition, because they are on the outside looking in, so to speak.

So you continue to maintain that a score to a movie such as Se7en or Transformers should be judged against the standards by which Swan Lake or Romeo & Juliet are? Must they be accompanied by the same lushness of The Nutcracker?

There in lies the flaw of your "philosophy."

Blumenkohl, do you even know anything about music, beyond your personal tastes?

No, I'm clueless.

I am deeply insulted that you dare imply I have a disregard for other, non-western traditions, be they classical or vernacular.

Time heals all wounds, you shall get over it.

This is hugely disrespectful, contemptuous, and irresponsible of you.

I strive for nothing less.

To harbor such sentiments, such ideas, is disgusting to me. I have studied Indian classical music for many years, as well as various other Persian and Asian classical traditions, both in music and poetry (they are sometimes very, very closely linked, as in Qawwali music, for instance).

Never would have guessed, reading post after post about the importance of harmonics...etc. ad infinitum.

All I ever meant to say, is that without any true, deep knowledge of craft, we are forced to become imitators. If we lack the tools to penetrate a surface, the surface is all we will see, and think we understand. Therefore, so much curent "symphonic" film music is simply musical props. They are badly drawn backcurtains, vague and imprecise, generic, banal, and ulitimately far less effective than they could be.

Never heard of "symphonic" film music. Assuming by symphonic you mean classical symphony, do you honestly consider something like Pirates of the Caribbean as symphonic for example? If not, would you still judge it against the standards of classical?

Classicism, be it Western, Persian, Korean, Chinese, Japenese, etc, means articulation, and the quest for eloquence and a lasting form.

So you do hereby recognize the existence of other cultures in music? Then you do admit that concepts such as harmonic control, or lush western orchestrations are not the only ways to communicate effectively through music?

I don't know what you refer to, Blumenkohl, by your "rules and theories", but I have to say, I get the very distinct feeling that you don't quite do either.

Narrow-mindedness and absolutism I suppose does dim ones ability to see differing ideas.

[Marcus 385]

Marcus is back to his old tricks. I am 100% classically educated to but have learned to let myself to enjoy all sorts of music. You are holding yourself back - that is all, just give in and enjoy the other types of music.

For example, one can admit that shore's score for LOTR is simple, but if that same person is not excited when the grand theme comes when crossing the bridge of khazzad dum, they are the ones missing out.

Oh, pi, get over yourself.

Where were you educated, by the way?

I don't understand what you mean by "holding yourself back"? Am I holding myself back, musically, by not being impressed by music which I think is uninteresting, and not very powerful or moving or effective?

Great for you if you get excited about something, I am happy for you!

But please also allow me not to get excited. I think LOTR could have been scored infinitely better, and would have deserved to. I can think of much better themes, much better development, much more appropriate music, and much more conceptually ideal and exciting ways for those film to have been scored.

I simply think composers like Herrmann, Rosza, Korngold, North, Waxman, Goldsmith and certainly John Williams are great composers, who always contribute something wonderful, outstanding and beautiful to a film, because they are not only film composers, but composers.

I miss hearing works of colleagues that can actually inspire. Oh damn it, I just want to hear good new film music for a change!

"lower your standards"

So you continue to maintain that a score to a movie such as Se7en or Transformers should be judged against the standards by which Swan Lake or Romeo & Juliet are? Must they be accompanied by the same lushness of The Nutcracker?

There in lies the flaw of your "philosophy."

Blumenkohl, do you even know anything about music, beyond your personal tastes?

No, I'm clueless.

I am deeply insulted that you dare imply I have a disregard for other, non-western traditions, be they classical or vernacular.

Time heals all wounds, you shall get over it.

This is hugely disrespectful, contemptuous, and irresponsible of you.

I strive for nothing less.

To harbor such sentiments, such ideas, is disgusting to me. I have studied Indian classical music for many years, as well as various other Persian and Asian classical traditions, both in music and poetry (they are sometimes very, very closely linked, as in Qawwali music, for instance).

Never would have guessed, reading post after post about the importance of harmonics...etc. ad infinitum.

All I ever meant to say, is that without any true, deep knowledge of craft, we are forced to become imitators. If we lack the tools to penetrate a surface, the surface is all we will see, and think we understand. Therefore, so much curent "symphonic" film music is simply musical props. They are badly drawn backcurtains, vague and imprecise, generic, banal, and ulitimately far less effective than they could be.

Never heard of "symphonic" film music. Assuming by symphonic you mean classical symphony, do you honestly consider something like Pirates of the Caribbean as symphonic for example? If not, would you still judge it against the standards of classical?

Classicism, be it Western, Persian, Korean, Chinese, Japenese, etc, means articulation, and the quest for eloquence and a lasting form.

So you do hereby recognize the existence of other cultures in music? Then you do admit that concepts such as harmonic control, or lush western orchestrations are not the only ways to communicate effectively through music?

I don't know what you refer to, Blumenkohl, by your "rules and theories", but I have to say, I get the very distinct feeling that you don't quite do either.

Narrow-mindedness and absolutism I suppose does dim ones ability to see differing ideas.

You have such a misguided perception of everything I am trying to say.

First of all, you seem to be under the impression that I want all film music to be written in a lush late romantic idiom. Where have I ever stated such nonsense?

I want film music to be written by good composers, not amateurs with sequencers! That's all.

I welcome anything that is good, regardless of style or medium. But I want it to be the best possible version of itself!

(This isn't about differing ideas as much as it is about your arrogance and self-elevation. You aren't the voice of reason, Blumenkohl, you are simply an average, very completely politically correct (which you should be aware of. You represent conformity here more than most!) poster with a better than average command of the English language. Something I do appreciate very much.)

I want starker scores, I want terrifying scores, I want austerity, or what about emotionality which isn't simply banal? I want musical maturity!

But what I find in film scores today, mostly, is sloppy writing and dumbed down dramatic conceptuality. I am sorry, but I am not impressed...

But you know, Blumenkohl, if you hadn't been so clueless about musical terminolgy, yet so hell-bent on arguing with me about aesthetic criticisms you haven't comprehended,- if you had only been a little bit humble, and maybe listened and maybe even asked pertinent questions, in case my arguments seemed unclear to you (which they must have, obviously, and for that I am sorry.), then I am sure you'd find that you'd more or less agree with me. Or I with you, for that matter.

[King Mark 2,924]

[Jeshopk 8]

If you have a chance, Marcus, listen to The Temp. That was the first Talgorn I heard, and I was very impressed. The end credits were like a movement of a piano concerto, yet fit the less ambitious film very well. I like that Talgorn reaches higher than the films while still working for them and not against.

[pi 0]

Marcus, maybe the concert world will suit you better - sequencers are here to stay. I think if you had a closer examination of the way the industry works you would see that the majority of the musical desicions are made before the composer is hired. Just about everything from the Waxman, Hermann, etc.. era has changed now - the actors, the style, the cinematagraphy, the music etc.. A few throwbacks remain. This is a money business - they go with what has worked before will work again theory. That is why there is not much new,-- that stuff from last year - repackage it - change the monster - will make money. Maybe things will begin to get more independent - like the record industry - and good technical composer's will arise (they will still need sequencers!).

But there is always good classical music to listen to if choose not to embrace this commercial style in the mean time. John powell is hired to sound like the last john powell movie, even though I am sure a man of his talents would be able to come up with some interesting tehnical music if ever given the chance.