Jump to content

The OFFICIAL James Horner Self-Plagiarism List


Recommended Posts

Actually, Williams always makes the strong impression to me that he actually does care what his music sounds like detached from the movie, and years afterwards. He goes to great lengths to make parts of his scores structured enough to turn them into concert suites (even to the point that he nowadays just writes a full concert arrangement and uses that for the credits). And he seems to take a very active part in re-arranging (often poorly) his music for albums.

For example, Goldsmith usually didn't mess around with the cues on his albums. He just dropped whatever he thought "not good" (sometimes entire scores) and left the rest as it was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 83
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I guess I'm talking more about hearing the music through the cinematic experience but I agree with what your saying Marian, however I do feel as though Williams' attitude towards his work being heard when experiencing a movie and his work being heard in a more isolated situation like on a cd or in concert are quite different.

He once said in a interview with Andre Previn that all of those 'other' things a composer must consider were just added complications to the actual job they were really meant to be doing but I have no doubt that as the years have gone on his attitude to the whole world of cds and scores has changed quite alot, well indeed it must have like you pointed out.

Also the fact that he has a whole collection of orchestral scores for the public to buy shows that he at least now acknowledges that people not only want to hear his music beyond the movie it was written for but also study it.

He does those spotting/scoring type segments sometimes at his concerts which are wonderful but I can imagine him thinking before the first time

he tried it ' what the hell am I doing this for???? ', but the audiences love it and I can understand how he himself has now learnt to embrace that side of it alot more now than in the past.

I still feel however that in general, Williams' attitude towards his scoring responsibilities has not changed that much.

Anyway, all that being said I feel as though I've taken a detour from what this thread was actually about -

The OFFICIAL James Horner Self-Plagiarism List

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I registered on a John Williams fan forum because I am a John Williams fan. If I were a Spielberg fan I would have registered on one of his. There are many movies I don't really want to see because I like there music so much, I am afraid it would take away from the music.

You're worried that one of the biggest hits of all time, which also is one of the mostly critically well-regarded films of the entire decade in which it was released, will detract from your enjoyment of the music?

Out of curioisty, what other classics are you purposefully not watching for fear that the movie will ruin the music for you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He once said in a interview with Andre Previn that all of those 'other' things a composer must consider were just added complications to the actual job they were really meant to be doing but I have no doubt that as the years have gone on his attitude to the whole world of cds and scores has changed quite alot, well indeed it must have like you pointed out.

Well, I think he was right, and he probably still thinks that way, too. His *job*, i.e. what he *has* to do, is write music that supports the movie. But I think his ambition is to simultaneously write music that can stand on its own - which I suppose is one of the marks of a great film composer. In Williams' case though, though not the basic driving force behind his work, I think it's a more "deliberate" ambition than with most other composers, meaning that while e.g. Goldsmith wrote great, self-consistent music just as a result of the way he scored films (and usually just took the best cues without adaptation for his concerts), Williams consciously lets these thoughts guide how he spots and scores a movie - resulting in standout cues like The Asteroid Field or Basket Chase, which stand out from the rest of the scores in their own way. That, aside from his obvious skill or luck in choosing movies that have a tendency to stay in the public conscience and at the same time offer opportunities for "noticeable" music, may be an important factor in why he became so popular and comparatively well-known. It also may be the reason for what I think is a tendency to over-score movies lately - it's great music, usually, but even when it supports the movie well, it often seems more than what the movie *required* (as opposed to, again, Goldsmith, who preferred to use less music rather than more), and at times actually feels like "too much" (SPR is an often-cited example of this, and I think Amistad as well, although I've never seen it myself).

That turned out longer than I intended... but I'm too lazy to re-read it just for adding paragraph breaks now. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow I don't think Horner's constant repeating of cues is done in the same way as Williams did with Yoda's theme.

Thankfully Williams didn't quote E.T.'s theme when they appeared in TPM.

Well, he hinted ET (in mood and orchestration) when Yoda leaves Kashyyyk towards Dagobah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I registered on a John Williams fan forum because I am a John Williams fan. If I were a Spielberg fan I would have registered on one of his. There are many movies I don't really want to see because I like there music so much, I am afraid it would take away from the music.

You're worried that one of the biggest hits of all time, which also is one of the mostly critically well-regarded films of the entire decade in which it was released, will detract from your enjoyment of the music?

Out of curioisty, what other classics are you purposefully not watching for fear that the movie will ruin the music for you?

It is not so much that I am avoiding E. T. I just have no interest in it. I am sure it is a wonderful movie, but, sorry, not interested :lol: That said, I am sure I will watch it someday.

As far as classics I am avoiding, I don't know any classics would fit into that category. And really, if it were on somewhere I was, I would probably watch it. It is just that I don't feel too much of a desire to. I like to watch musicals that focus around music, because I think that in that case the movie adds to the music. But often normal movies don't. So, here is my list of soundtracks I have without having seen the movie, and without having too much desire to see the movie.

E. T.

Hook

The Spiderwick Chronicles

The Water Horse

Shindler's List

Titanic

Well, I think I watched part of Hook once, but I don't really remember much. And out of all of them, that is probably the one I would like most to see.

There you have it. I am afraid I am just not too much of a movie fan.

Colin Thomson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When Bernard Herrmann does it, he's a musical genius. (In fact, I'd just under, if not on par with James Horner in terms of reiterating ideas over and over again).

When Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams do it it's auto-pilot.

When Horner does it...it's plagiarism.

When Zimmer does it, it's considered garbage.

At last, the truth is finally told on the boards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't forget one of Horner's bigger gaffes, when Disney/Horner was reportedly sued by Nino Rota's estate over the use of Amarcord in Honey I Shrunk The Kids. Don't know if Raymond Scott's estate sued over the use of "Powerhouse" as well. Honey I Shrunk The Kids also contains a partial rip-off of David Grusin's Goonies theme.

Might explain why Disney never released a score album, nor have they re-released a remastered widescreen DVD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I re-listened the FSM Podcast on this subject this afternoon. There's some good examples in there.

Apparently, the main theme from Glory comes from Ivan the Terrible (and there's tons more). One they didn't mention, but is also from Glory, and is more a case of temp-track copying than anything else is the track Charging Fort Wagner. An O Fortuna copy if I ever heard one (I don't blame Horner for this one, though. I just found it funny when I heard it).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah Charging Fort Wagner is a little too close.

There's also another copy in Glory from The Outlaw Josey Wales but then I read that Jerry Fielding used a traditional march tune for the piece Horner copied so I'm not really sure what the deal was because I'd never heard it outside either film. I can't remember the track in Glory but the piece is used in the end title music for Wales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did anoyone mention Schindler's List in Enemy at the Gates yet? It was posted in another thread and I remember it very well from seeing that film, but don't recall seeing it in this thread yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it's not Schindler's List Horner is using, it's Mahler. Just like Troy is Vaughn-Williams, not David Arnold.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The love theme. Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis. Many people said it was a rip-off of Arnold's Stargate theme, but the opening aounds awfully close to Vaughn-Williams.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I recall (and fortunately, I don't remember much), that was one of my primary thoughts throughout the movie. Also, the approach of the Greeks is yet another Battle on the Ice ripoff (but then, so is the whole scene).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it's not Schindler's List Horner is using, it's Mahler. Just like Troy is Vaughn-Williams, not David Arnold.....

So right. He also takes elements from Prokofiev (i.e., the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution Cantata).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, the approach of the Greeks is yet another Battle on the Ice ripoff (but then, so is the whole scene).

No more obvious Battle on the Ice rip-off than the scene in King Arthur. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't believe we forgot about Battle Beyond The Stars......Prokofiev, Goldsmith, Williams and Holst..oh my!!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.