What orchestrators do?

[untouchables 0]

Nice article that would highlight the job of orchestrator in film music; the few composers who do all the job of scoring are B. Herrmann, Morricone, G. Delerue, Rachel Portman, John Barry in his early works!

There is indeed a different kind of orchestrations and contribution, I'm big fan of Maurice Jarre and I read in a french interview that he consider orchestration an important part of composing but he just use orchestrators like his friend Christopher Palmer only as assisstant.

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The role of the orchestrator remains an ambiguous one to many film music fans, largely because the dimension of their creative input varies from composer to composer.

In the case of classically trained composers, orchestrators do not generally contribute anything creative. However, with the kind of schedules composers face in Hollywood, it is often necessary to employ assistance. A composer like Jerry Goldsmith for instance, although he "sketches" his cues, every creative detail is provided in these sketches--instrumental groupings, dynamics, and indications for all the notes. It is just written in a kind of compressed "shorthand," perhaps with some occasional verbal instructions.

Such sketches however are not really useable as a conductor's score. Also, since film scores are often written in a hurry, a composer's handwriting may not be as neat as it could be. Therefore, an assistant is usually needed to take the composer's sketches and transfer it to a full score. In a sense you could think of it as "paint by number," with the composer writing "blue" or "red" on the canvas, and the orchestrator coloring it in (of course it is a bit more detailed than that but you get the idea).

Sometimes an orchestrator may make a suggestion which the composer has not thought of and the composer will use it. Some composers also may grant the orchestrator leave to add his own touches to the score. The orchestrator is also useful assistant to the composer. In transferring the composer's intentions to full score, the orchestrator might catch mistakes (which a composer might make in the rush to meet a deadline). The orchestrator is also the only person other than the composer who knows exactly how the score is supposed to sound, and it can help to have him in the recording booth (if the composer is on the podium) to monitor the recording.

Predictably there have been a number of cases where composer and orchestrator have diverging recollections of who thought up what, but generally composer/orchestrator relationships are loyal and longstanding. Jerry Goldsmith and Arthur Morton have worked together now for over thirty years and are the best of friends, while John Williams had a long collaboration with Herbert Spencer.

Using an orchestrator is not an indication of any lacking ability on the composer's part--"concert" composers like Sergei Prokofiev, Aaron Copland and John Corigliano all used orchestrators for their film music. In the late '50s, the Universal music department was thoroughly exasperated by the young Jerry Goldsmith, because he did not understand how to sketch--he kept giving the orchestrators complete scores!

There are of course composers whose expertise does not extend to orchestration. Some self-taught composers do not write fully detailed sketches, thus requiring the orchestrator to use more initiative. However, I should point out that there are a number of self-taught composers (for instance Shirley Walker and Michael Kamen), who are fully capable of orchestrating their own works and provide complete sketches to the orchestrators, and even write in full score when there is time. (Kamen orchestrated his scores for Brazil and Highlander, for instance.)

An entertaining and informed insight into Hollywood orchestrating can be found in Andre Previn's book No Minor Chords: My Days in Hollywood. On orchestrating for Hugo Friedhofer, Andre Previn says "I felt like I was stealing" when he orchestrated for Friedhofer, since Friedhofer's sketch contained every last detail, and there was nothing creative for Previn to do. He also provides amusing anecdotes on composers who could not orchestrate, like Herbert Stothart (who one day leaned over to Previn from the podium and said "Young man, did I write this?")

The following information is based on comments from composers and orchestrators, examinations of their music and watching them work, and is, to the best of my knowledge, accurate.

There are a number of composers who, as a rule, write (or wrote) in full score, without working with an orchestrator. They include Bernard Herrmann, John Scott, Ennio Morricone, Georges Delerue Rachel Portman and John Barry in his early work.

Composers who do work with orchestrators, but provide complete detail in their sketches would include Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, Christopher Young, Bruce Broughton, Basil Poledouris and John Barry in his later work. (All of these composers, I should point out, have also composed scores which they completely orchestrated themselves.)

The rest

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/1...strators_Do.asp

2008 would be the year of orchestration !!

[ChrisAfonso 186]

That's a good article, but I have the impression you're trying hard to convince us of something we allready know. We're not a bunch of musical illiterates who think Williams is the only true composer here, you know.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

We're not a bunch of musical illiterates who think Williams is the only true composer here, you know.

Define "we".

[AI 0]

well here we go again.

Williams orchestrates his own stuff.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Finally there are composers who are usually electronically oriented, who write/play their music into a keyboard and provide a sketch printed from a computer linked to their MIDI system, as well as a tape. In this case the orchestrator provides more of the orchestral detail (usually blending it with the composer's synth lines), although the composers who work this way have stated that their complete music is there in the computer. Hans Zimmer, Marc Shaiman, Tony Banks, Brad Fiedel, Stewart Copeland, Kitaro and many other current composers--including Elliot Goldenthal, who has an extensive classical training--fall into this category.

I think the Goldenthal bit of that needs to be emphasized as well. Not everyone using a computer sounds like MV.

[Ollie 1,059]

We're not a bunch of musical illiterates who think Williams is the only true composer here, you know.

Define "we".

Yes.....

A stranger visiting this board might not be too sure.

[Hellgi 0]

Composers who do work with orchestrators, but provide complete detail in their sketches would include Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, Christopher Young, Bruce Broughton, Basil Poledouris and John Barry in his later work. (All of these composers, I should point out, have also composed scores which they completely orchestrated themselves.)

Christopher Young???

I'm not sure the guy knows what he's talking about...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Former MB member Ocelot used to work as an orchestrator to Christopher Young.

[untouchables 0]

I personally consider orchestration as at least 50% of a music-work !

You fans, this the main man who was behind John Williams sound ( Superman-The River - Return of the Jedi -The Witches of Eastwick- Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - Presumed Innocent - Home Alone ...)

Herbert Spencer (1905-1992)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Spencer

Morton Stevens

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You just commited an act of heresy on the John Williams Messageboard, only 6 posts into your stint, and your first day here.

Nice.....

[untouchables 0]

You just commited an act of heresy on the John Williams Messageboard, only 6 posts into your stint, and your first day here.

Nice.....

I'm sure that the man is TOTALLY able to orchestrate his own stuff, I don't blame him but Hollywood process-working!

I agree with "heretics" like B. Herrmann!

[Red 75]

What orchestrators do?

Orchestrate.

[Ollie 1,059]

Simple as that.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

I'm sure that the man is TOTALLY able to orchestrate his own stuff, I don't blame him but Hollywood process-working!

Actually your own quote says that Williams does orchestrate his own stuff.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I'm sure that the man is TOTALLY able to orchestrate his own stuff, I don't blame him but Hollywood process-working!

Actually your own quote says that Williams does orchestrate his own stuff.

But he believes that Hollywood forces Williams not to orchestrate his own stuff.

[Ollie 1,059]

Or is he trying to say that the tight deadlines, constant rewrites, lack of true music knowledge and rush to make films by studios these days can cause a composer to use extra help and he/she may not have the time to fully orchestrate their own scores.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I KNOW that happens.

Its just that i dont see Williams doing that.

And if he does (Chamber of Secrets), he takes less credit without shame.

[Henry B 50]

Another thread ruined by a repetitive debate. This article isn't just about Williams.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Is this a good moment to bring up Superstructure Chase?

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't know what the purpose of this thread was to begin with.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

With the creator posts, it seems he wants us to know that Williams does not orchestrate his own scores.

Is this a good moment to bring up Superstructure Chase?

If you have proof, post it.

[untouchables 0]

How many fans do/did know that Herbert Spencer and Morton were behind John Williams sound?

What's about his concert-pieces?, in this case I think he is the sole creator of those works.

[Morn 8]

No, untouchables, most of the time at least with the best composers, the term orchestrator is misleading, transcriber would be a better job description.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

I personally consider orchestration as at least 50% of a music-work !

You fans, this the main man who was behind John Williams sound ( Superman-The River - Return of the Jedi -The Witches of Eastwick- Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - Presumed Innocent - Home Alone ...)

Herbert Spencer (1905-1992)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Spencer

Morton Stevens

Untouchables... how can I put this simply to you?

The one and only responsible for Williams sound is, guess what, Williams himself.

To put you to shame, the orchestrations on both Presumed Innocent and Home Alone were by John Neufeld (Angela Morley was also there for Home Alone.)

Patrick Hollenbeck was also brought in for Last Crusade, and he had this to say:

When I got out there I heard these horror stories of orchestrators being handed a page with a title, a key signature and a number of bars and nothing else on it; so orchestrators have developed a mystique as, allegedly, 'the secret composers,' and in many cases it may be true -- but not with John Williams. With him, orchestrating means taking his notes from the little green paper and putting them in the big yellow paper. But it was a tremendous learning experience.

And what about Stanley and Iris... no orchestrator there. Maybe it fails to catch that "Williams sound"...

Untouchables, I imagine that the point here is to make clear that your favorite Morricone can do it all by himself, while others depend on external help.

You can believe it all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Agreed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The last word has not been said about this.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But Miguel has spoken

[Ollie 1,059]

The last word has not been said about this.

Do we have another troll on our hands?

[Marcus 390]

How many fans do/did know that Herbert Spencer and Morton were behind John Williams sound?

What's about his concert-pieces?, in this case I think he is the sole creator of those works.

I think just about everyone here knows about Herbert Spencer, Morton, Courage, Neufeld, Pope, etc., and everyone also knows that none of these men are responsible for Williams's sound.

Again, as should have been brought sufficiently to your attention by now, these men do not contribute one iota of the actual sonoric fabric; every note, every orchestrational detail, etc. is written by Williams, and is clearly present in his sketches.

I own a number of facsimiles of Williams's sketches, and let me tell you, I could very easily, and with no imagination whatsoever, construct a full score version of the music.

Enough of this already!

[Ollie 1,059]

I wouldn't waste my time anymore Marcus. I think we are witnessing a similar "trolling" episode similar to the Horner fans that make one post praising him and take a shot at Williams and then disappear after a day or two to never be heard from again.

This poster has started two similar posts at the same time on this message board and that is a clear warning sign to me.

[untouchables 0]

Thank you all for your participation, especially Miguel Andrade;

I'm also big collector of John Williams, even concert pieces which I love too;

However I feel some sympathy for those orchestrators whose names are not credited in the movies which use the score. as I stated, contribution is different frrom composre to another, I don't imagine that williams has the same assistance like a guy as Zimmer!

Zimmer was also sued by the owners of the copyright of Holst for Gladiator.

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This is taken from a rare Morricone interview -1995-

Asker: Why do you always orchestrate your own scores? Do you believe that composers who do not orchestrate are shortchanging either the music or the film?

Morricone: I don't want to get into delicate professional questions. However, I will make a simple declaration. Composers in all epochs and all ages, except perhaps this one, for film and other contemporary musical practices, have always written out their own music. I cannot understand why one who calls himself a composer does not finish his own music, and thereby give the final and definitive touch to his composition. This stems from the era of musical theater, where composers hired arrangers to write out the music because either they did not know how, or were too lazy, or because of the excessive workload. Throughout the history of music, no composer has had his score written out by someone else. So why does this occur in film music? I do not understand.

[Smeagol 0]

This is taken from a rare Morricone interview -1995-

Asker: Why do you always orchestrate your own scores? Do you believe that composers who do not orchestrate are shortchanging either the music or the film?

Morricone: I don't want to get into delicate professional questions. However, I will make a simple declaration. Composers in all epochs and all ages, except perhaps this one, for film and other contemporary musical practices, have always written out their own music. I cannot understand why one who calls himself a composer does not finish his own music, and thereby give the final and definitive touch to his composition. This stems from the era of musical theater, where composers hired arrangers to write out the music because either they did not know how, or were too lazy, or because of the excessive workload. Throughout the history of music, no composer has had his score written out by someone else. So why does this occur in film music? I do not understand.

I'm technically a newbie around these parts, so I might not have the sufficient authority to say this but... Holy schnitzels man! What is it that you're trying to prove? I got the impression that each and every single one of the people who frequent this forum regularly already knows/believes exactly what they want regarding Williams and issues like this one. No amount of articles or interviews that you copy and paste will make any of the people here change their mind about what they already believe. So if that was your goal when you started this discussion... you are really far from it my friend. Could we just move on and leave this subject alone?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes indeed.

[Maglorfin 196]

Morricone definitely has a point here, especially in saying "I cannot understand why one who calls himself a composer does not finish his own music, and thereby give the final and definitive touch to his composition." and "Throughout the history of music, no composer has had his score written out by someone else. So why does this occur in film music? I do not understand."

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

However I feel some sympathy for those orchestrators whose names are not credited in the movies which use the score. as I stated, contribution is different frrom composre to another, I don't imagine that williams has the same assistance like a guy as Zimmer!

Williams' orchestrators are credited in the films. They're not credited on CDs. Williams' reasoning, in line with what has been said above, is that they provide a service by transcribing his sketches, therefore it is appropriate they should be rewarded with a film credit. However, they do not contribute to the music, hence the CDs are credited to him alone.

Throughout the history of music, no composer has had his score written out by someone else. So why does this occur in film music? I do not understand.

A good point - as long as we're talking about composers who don't write their own orchestrations. As has been shown, this isn't the case for Williams, and I guess most of the important big players.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Thank you all for your participation, especially Miguel Andrade;

Thank you, though I don't find my participation here anymore important or significant than any other from our fellow board members.

However I feel some sympathy for those orchestrators whose names are not credited in the movies which use the score. as I stated, contribution is different frrom composre to another, I don't imagine that williams has the same assistance like a guy as Zimmer!

I can understand that, but as it was mentioned above, they get credited on the film. This is some they accept and it seems to me, that everyone of this hightly skilled musicians find it an honor to be able to work for Williams, even if they don't do more than provide a sort of trasncription service.

[Frosty 0]

I can't help but adding that Williams was an orchestrator for other composers as well.

Just received the copy of the full score to "Men of the Yorktown" march and it is completely in Williams handwriting

[Maglorfin 196]

I can't help but adding that Williams was an orchestrator for other composers as well.

Of course, this is well known. Even the Wikipedia tells us that "After his studies at Juilliard, Williams returned to Los Angeles and began working as an orchestrator in film studios. Among others, he had worked with composers Franz Waxman, Bernard Herrmann, and Alfred Newman."

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

However I feel some sympathy for those orchestrators whose names are not credited in the movies which use the score. as I stated, contribution is different frrom composre to another, I don't imagine that williams has the same assistance like a guy as Zimmer!

Williams' orchestrators are credited in the films.

I was just going to say that.

Untouchables think: If you say Spencer (or any orchestrator) is the responsible of the Williams sound, how is that, Goldsmith and Williams have each a very distintive sound but both had Alexander Courage as orchestrator.

[Next_Spielberg 0]

While I can't comment on every sketch Mr. Williams has done, since I haven't seen his sketches personally, it would be perfectly reasonable that an 8-10 line sketch with clear annotations as to which instruments are playing which notes could be clear enough that any given orchestrator would produce a similar or identical score. I think that this manner of writing makes a lot of sense when pencil and paper are concerned, since it's much easier to annotate "flutes on the top line, clarinets below, doubled by basson" than to write the same thing on a full score. I surmise that I would write annotated sketches if I used pencil and paper as my primary means of notating music. Orchestrating is a much easier task in Sibelius and other notation programs, since it's almost easier to create an orchestrated piece than a sketch. Orchestrators for pencil and paper composers under a schedule provide the composer a means to convey his/her exact musical intention quickly without having to get bogged down in the tedium of copying the flute part to the piccolo line for the next three measures and so forth. There are of course cases of composers who provide essentially piano reductions of the score to an orchestrator who orchestrates the piece, though I'm sure even orchestrators under composers like Williams have the occasional opportunity to suggest something or provide some inspiration.

[lostinspace 8]

A few points about orchestration:

I believe the sole reason Williams uses an orchestrator is because he is (has been) under tremendous time pressure. From the moment the rough cut of the film has been completed a film is usually into its post production phase so the composer has to produce quality music quickly. Lets no forget how many movies Williams scored in 2005 for instance: ROTS, WOTW, Munich and Memoirs of a Geisha; and say each requires roughly 1.5 - 2 hrs of score. Go and ask any concert composer not in the media/film industry how many minutes of music they write in a year. I guarentee they will not have written 5-6 hours!

Having seen some of Williams sketches 8/9 lines, they are very detailed. Writing music in the sketch format would seem to be the way to go for not just film composers but any composer. The main ideas can be written down on 2-3 lines then expanded out to specifics for woodwinds/brass etc. for example strings and winds might be doubling each other on the melody but they may have different phrasing/articulations -winds have to breathe.

As for orchestrating by hand or with Finale or Sibelius its completely the orchestrators preference. It's easy to write 'col .....' meaning 'with' - and a line which just copys the part to that instrument.