The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread

[TownerFan 4,983]

New interview with Williams; Williams speculates as to how he wrote Raiders.

Johnny is a cool cat! He seems very happy and buoyant about his new opus. Also, his living room looks pretty neat.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

New interview with Williams; Williams speculates as to how he wrote Raiders.

Johnny is a cool cat! He seems very happy and buoyant about his new opus. Also, his living room looks pretty neat.

Yes! And his room... well, not my choice of decoration, but nice to look at

[Josh500 1,615]

One siginificant fact we learned from this video:

JW names his own tracks! Quote: "I've actually called it on the soundtrack album 'The Adventures of Mutt'!"

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

One siginificant fact we learned from this video:

JW names his own tracks! Quote: "I've actually called it on the soundtrack album 'The Adventures of Mutt'!"

And you didn't knew that already?

[Josh500 1,615]

One siginificant fact we learned from this video:

JW names his own tracks! Quote: "I've actually called it on the soundtrack album 'The Adventures of Mutt'!"

And you didn't knew that already?

Sure I did. But you didn't, did you?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

One siginificant fact we learned from this video:

JW names his own tracks! Quote: "I've actually called it on the soundtrack album 'The Adventures of Mutt'!"

And you didn't knew that already?

Sure I did. But you didn't, did you?

Whatever...

[odnurega1 0]

The interview was great. JW seems very healthy, lively, and yes, he is getting older. But aren't we all? I enjoyed his explanations, and I liked the fact that he was very enthusiastic about the score. He seems to have enjoyed writing it, which can be heard when listening to the score itself. I am getting more excited about the film, and hearing the score in the film, as they days pass!

[MissPadmé 17]

Has anyone noticed the similarity to the Jaws Theme at the beginning of "Journey to Akator", 0:07? the strings have the same rythmic pattern

dumdum dumdum dumdumDUMdum dumdumDUMdum

[Josh500 1,615]

Has anyone noticed the similarity to the Jaws Theme at the beginning of "Journey to Akator", 0:07? the strings have the same rythmic pattern

dumdum dumdum dumdumDUMdum dumdumDUMdum

I'm sorry, but that sounds nothing like Jaws... two notes alternating doesn't ALWAYS mean shark!

Listen to the last few seconds of Anakin Defeats Sebulba on the OS album--now THAT sounds like Jaws.

[MSM 126]

Is there any cue which is really as witty as The Basket Chase?

[Saxman717 22]

To those who love the first minute of Jungle Chase --- what do you love about it? It's funny, because that section reminds me of most of JW's more recent action cues, such as Jango's Escape, which lack melody, leitmotifs, and overall focus and just consist of runs, flourishes and brass hits.

At 1:56, there's the insane, ugly transition but it establishes what I think is the true "Jungle Chase" motif, which is really catchy and harkens back to Desert Chase, and then at 2:30, it comes back in full form --- it's this section of the track that is my favorite. It ends up blending Irina's Theme in with this awesome Jungle Chase motif, along with snippets of Indy's theme.

Is there any reason why some prefer the first minute so much? Maybe this is one difference between an "old-Williams" fan vs. a "new-Williams" fan.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

After my first couple of listens, I'm surprisingly not so very impressed. It's surely pretty good, but right now I'd probably rate it as a 4-star score, which is a real heavy disappointment considering we're talking about a John Williams Indiana Jones score here.

A lot of the action music is strangely cheerful, almost silly, without having much melody. The most notable example is "The Snake Pit", but it also applies to "A Whirl Through Academe" and parts of "Jungle Chase".

The new themes, excluding the Crystall Skull theme, aren't actually used very much in the main body of the score. If we assume "The Adventures of Mutt" is a concert suite, Mutt's theme only once makes an appearance in the score to disrupt the "Jungle Chase" track, since the Finale track is the end credits. Irina's theme is in "The Spell of the Skull", "The Jungle Chase" and "Ants!", but otherwise I haven't really found it anywhere yet. Possibly some of the finale tracks, but not exactly used much. Marion's theme only appears in the beginning of the Finale if we don't count it's inclusion in The Raiders March. I highly suspect that the album representation is severely messed up. Also the Russian March, which sounds really good indeed, hardly makes any proper appearance at all.

Probably the score as heard in the film will be a proper 5-star effort from John Williams, but for now I'm less impressed than I had expected and hoped I would be.

It is most unfortunate that "The Jungle Chase" is really quite disjointed, with parts of real cool stuff, parts that sound really silly and things that really sound like obvious edits. There's a lack of any proper cool serious action music such as "Desert Chase", "Belly of the Steel Beast", etc.

Strangely enough I didn't feel like this about Revenge of the Sith at all. Based on the album, I really liked that score. The opening track "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith" already convinced me more than the whole of KotCS.

I have so far listened to the soundtrack thrice and am beginning to like it better, but I probably need to listen to it a lot more to appreciate it more fully. Also hearing the music as used in the movie will probably make a major difference. But for now I'm a bit disappointed.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

At 1:56, there's the insane, ugly transition but it establishes what I think is the true "Jungle Chase" motif, which is really catchy and harkens back to Desert Chase, and then at 2:30, it comes back in full form --- it's this section of the track that is my favorite. It ends up blending Irina's Theme in with this awesome Jungle Chase motif, along with snippets of Indy's theme.

Very much agreed. The second half is really good and I wished it was much longer. Just when I starts to become really good, it just... ends.

[MissPadmé 17]

Has anyone noticed the similarity to the Jaws Theme at the beginning of "Journey to Akator", 0:07? the strings have the same rythmic pattern

dumdum dumdum dumdumDUMdum dumdumDUMdum

I'm sorry, but that sounds nothing like Jaws... two notes alternating doesn't ALWAYS mean shark!

Listen to the last few seconds of Anakin Defeats Sebulba on the OS album--now THAT sounds like Jaws.

Man.. don't be afraid this is not a Williams-hack-plgerism post. I just said that the rythmic pattern at 0:07 is the same pazttern as the famous Jaws Theme.. and thats not similar.. they are the same, this is a musical fact!

I just found it to be funny

[Sixers 0]

Has anyone noticed the similarity to the Jaws Theme at the beginning of "Journey to Akator", 0:07? the strings have the same rythmic pattern

dumdum dumdum dumdumDUMdum dumdumDUMdum

I'm sorry, but that sounds nothing like Jaws... two notes alternating doesn't ALWAYS mean shark!

Listen to the last few seconds of Anakin Defeats Sebulba on the OS album--now THAT sounds like Jaws.

Man.. don't be afraid this is not a Williams-hack-plgerism post. I just said that the rythmic pattern at 0:07 is the same pazttern as the famous Jaws Theme.. and thats not similar.. they are the same, this is a musical fact!

I just found it to be funny

There have been many instances after Jaws in which John Williams uses two alternating notes.

[MissPadmé 17]

Has anyone noticed the similarity to the Jaws Theme at the beginning of "Journey to Akator", 0:07? the strings have the same rythmic pattern

dumdum dumdum dumdumDUMdum dumdumDUMdum

I'm sorry, but that sounds nothing like Jaws... two notes alternating doesn't ALWAYS mean shark!

Listen to the last few seconds of Anakin Defeats Sebulba on the OS album--now THAT sounds like Jaws.

Man.. don't be afraid this is not a Williams-hack-plgerism post. I just said that the rythmic pattern at 0:07 is the same pazttern as the famous Jaws Theme.. and thats not similar.. they are the same, this is a musical fact!

I just found it to be funny

There have been many instances after Jaws in which John Williams uses two alternating notes.

Hmm funny... yes. did you ever realise that the Jaws ostinato consists of TRHEE notes?

well to be exact of 3 pitches

And I don't men just two notes.. I mean the whole only in Jaws-phrase: e f e f e f e f e f D e e f D

AND that pattern is the exact same at 0:07.. tht's ll I said. and what does it mean now?

nothing it just appeared to me.

[Hlao-roo 389]

To those who love the first minute of Jungle Chase --- what do you love about it? It's funny, because that section reminds me of most of JW's more recent action cues, such as Jango's Escape, which lack melody, leitmotifs, and overall focus and just consist of runs, flourishes and brass hits.

"Jango's Escape," as a whole, does not cohere particularly well, I agree, but it's not accurate to say that it lacks melody. It features a rather salient motif, actually, that largely disappears as the cue goes on.

[Sixers 0]

Hmm funny... yes. did you ever realise that the Jaws ostinato consists of TRHEE notes?

well to be exact of 3 pitches

And I don't men just two notes.. I mean the whole only in Jaws-phrase: e f e f e f e f e f D e e f D

AND that pattern is the exact same at 0:07.. tht's ll I said. and what does it mean now?

nothing it just appeared to me.

Well, I wouldn't say it's exactly the same, but in the same.....style?

[MissPadmé 17]

Hmm funny... yes. did you ever realise that the Jaws ostinato consists of TRHEE notes?

well to be exact of 3 pitches

And I don't men just two notes.. I mean the whole only in Jaws-phrase: e f e f e f e f e f D e e f D

AND that pattern is the exact same at 0:07.. tht's ll I said. and what does it mean now?

nothing it just appeared to me.

Well, I wouldn't say it's exactly the same, but in the same.....style?

No it is the same rhythm.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

*Yawn*

Everytime I think the score is growing on me, I listen to Raiders, and I realize I was just listening to Crystal Skull too many times, and it affected my relative tastes.

Next set of xylophone I hear, I will use the mallets to shove into my ears.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

John Williams saying "sexy" in that interview made my day.

With regards to "Jungle Chase," I think it's pure gold if you remove the tracking of Mutt's theme. It uses Irina's theme wonderfully, from the opening fanfare to the final moments, and there's some amazing, really driving music in the second half. I hope that it's been heavily edited for the album, so there's hope of one day getting a more cohesive piece out of it.

[MissPadmé 17]

John Williams saying "sexy" in that interview made my day.

Hmm didn't he mean "sAxy" because a few seconds later he mentions the Saxophone.. and there is a Sax in Irina's Theme?

[Incanus 5,714]

Why are all so beside themselves with the Jungle Chase? This is film music if you people have forgotten that, it can change pace and direction very quickly. If the scene requires such quick twists and turns from the music isn't it only natural it makes those motions. Personally I think that the track is basically call and answer between the heroic and the villain themes which is highly entertaining and fun. And I can easily picture the sudden march like quotes in the cue being quick shots of a tank or something similarly big and menacing appearing (my own interpretation based on the feel of the music and the trailer). And again why should the cue be any longer than the album track?

[Neimoidian 14]

(...)

A lot of the action music is strangely cheerful, almost silly, without having much melody. The most notable example is "The Snake Pit", but it also applies to "A Whirl Through Academe" and parts of "Jungle Chase".

(...)

I thought action music in both ToD and TLC was also quite cheerful and silly (though it had much melody).

Chris, who hasn't heard the new score yet.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra is funny in a way, but Belly of the Steel Beast isn't cheerfully and happy-sounding.

[Limbonaut 2]

A lot of the action music is strangely cheerful, almost silly, without having much melody. The most notable example is "The Snake Pit", but it also applies to "A Whirl Through Academe" and parts of "Jungle Chase".

Maybe because some of the action in those is silly? "Why is the music while this character dies of cancer so sad?"

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Indeed very possible. So I'm holding off final judgment on the score until having listened to it a lot more and having heard it in the film at least several times.

[Jacob 0]

Why are all so beside themselves with the Jungle Chase? This is film music if you people have forgotten that, it can change pace and direction very quickly. If the scene requires such quick twists and turns from the music isn't it only natural it makes those motions. Personally I think that the track is basically call and answer between the heroic and the villain themes which is highly entertaining and fun. And I can easily picture the sudden march like quotes in the cue being quick shots of a tank or something similarly big and menacing appearing (my own interpretation based on the feel of the music and the trailer). And again why should the cue be any longer than the album track?

I like The Jungle Chase quite a lot. I just wish there were more of it. Who knows, perhaps there's another unreleased The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword in there somewhere... I can hope can't I?

Also, I'm really starting to dig Ants!. Williams musically represents the little buggers dead on if you ask me. I can easily picture it accompanying an action set piece filled with swarms of them.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

"The Spell Of The Skull", doesn't it feature Indy's Discovery theme quite heavily? Because the ascending string lines remember me of Raiders.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Is there any cue which is really as witty as The Basket Chase?

Of course there is...

[King Mark 3,630]

Well.

On hindsight I was very dissapointed by the TPM and RotS OSTs and with expanded versions they are some of my favourite.

so we'll see.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Is there any reason why some prefer the first minute so much? Maybe this is one difference between an "old-Williams" fan vs. a "new-Williams" fan.

So, I'm assuming you're old... Is it that what we are talking about?

Because all the rest makes no sense to me.

If you like the old Williams better, then listen to Raiders instead of complaining.

[Quintus 5,399]

I couldn't give a sh*t about this old vs new Williams argument, I just like what I like and I quite like this new score. A lot, truth be told. If I like the film I'm gonna grow to luuuuv the score, even more.

Once again JW puts a smile on my face. No wonder I love the man..

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Can we expect a wedding announcement soon?

[Saxman717 22]

So, I'm assuming you're old... Is it that what we are talking about?

Because all the rest makes no sense to me.

If you like the old Williams better, then listen to Raiders instead of complaining.

Miguel, you are really an arrogant, belligerent jerk, aren't you. For the past two days, you've attempted to belittle all my posts by acting like you are omniscient and that nothing I post makes sense.

Somehow my posts push a button with you --- well, you're showing your true lack of character in your responses to my posts.

If my posts don't make sense to you, then don't quote them and comment on them, because you're obviously not qualified to reply to them.

Enjoy banding together with your touchy clique of modern Williams soundtrack fans to shield this latest soundtrack from any criticism. All I can say is this --- I long for the thematic-based scores of the classic Williams era, when you could have a melody for a street chase in Raiders of the Lost Ark, with a brilliant, catchy melody, and then can hear a snippet of it again in Temple of Doom (near the end, before the bridge) and know exactly what that theme refers to and can laugh at the circumstance. THAT is the kind of classic moment that the old Williams style can produce. That is what is impossible to accomplish with the more incidental, less thematic music of Williams' latest scores.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

he's got you there Miguel,

Joe, who knew that Miguel would rebel against any IJKOTCS criticism, but I so wanted you to not like it.

[Henry B 50]

All I can say is this --- I long for the thematic-based scores of the classic Williams era, when you could have a melody for a street chase in Raiders of the Lost Ark, with a brilliant, catchy melody, and then can hear a snippet of it again in Temple of Doom (near the end, before the bridge) and know exactly what that theme refers to and can laugh at the circumstance. THAT is the kind of classic moment that the old Williams style can produce. That is what is impossible to accomplish with the more incidental, less thematic music of Williams' latest scores.

Nonsense! These days, you can hear a string bass line for an alien invasion in War of the Worlds, with a brilliant, pulsing rhythm, and then can hear a snippet of it again in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (in "Hidden Treasure and the City of Gold") and know exactly what that theme refers to and can laugh at the circumstance. THAT is the kind of classic moment that the new style Williams can produce.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Why can't people acknowledge that the modern Williams is just as brilliant as the old, but with different tools? I admit that aside from Irina's Theme, which is as 80 as you can get, I find myself humming nothing of KOTCS.

But I listen to it again and again because the music is simply addictive as a whole, masterfully crafted and not in the least predictable. More so than any 2000 Williams score I can remember.

"The Snake Pit" has no memorable motif, and yet I keep listening to it because it's so darn enjoyable.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Why can't people acknowledge that the modern Williams is just as brilliant as the old, but with different tools?

Different tools for different fools.

Many think his tools are in fact the same but have suffered wear and tear. And some think "the modern Williams" is no longer working with a full toolset.

[King Mark 3,630]

You know,that moment in the finale there the new version of the Indy theme kicks in.That is the type JW moment you wait for years to finally come.

Same can be said for the last minute of Departure

I wish there were more of these

[Hlao-roo 389]

You know,that moment in the finale there the new version of the Indy theme kicks in.That is the type JW moment you wait for years to finally come.

Same can be said for the last minute of Departure

I wish there were more of these

I wish I could listen to what you guys are listening to. A handful of days left, depending on when the order ships/arrives.

[Marcus 390]

So, I'm assuming you're old... Is it that what we are talking about?

Because all the rest makes no sense to me.

If you like the old Williams better, then listen to Raiders instead of complaining.

Miguel, you are really an arrogant, belligerent jerk, aren't you. For the past two days, you've attempted to belittle all my posts by acting like you are omniscient and that nothing I post makes sense.

Somehow my posts push a button with you --- well, you're showing your true lack of character in your responses to my posts.

If my posts don't make sense to you, then don't quote them and comment on them, because you're obviously not qualified to reply to them.

Enjoy banding together with your touchy clique of modern Williams soundtrack fans to shield this latest soundtrack from any criticism. All I can say is this --- I long for the thematic-based scores of the classic Williams era, when you could have a melody for a street chase in Raiders of the Lost Ark, with a brilliant, catchy melody, and then can hear a snippet of it again in Temple of Doom (near the end, before the bridge) and know exactly what that theme refers to and can laugh at the circumstance. THAT is the kind of classic moment that the old Williams style can produce. That is what is impossible to accomplish with the more incidental, less thematic music of Williams' latest scores.

Oh boy....

Saxman, listen up! Miguel is anything but a jerk, which is something the whole board knows and appreciates, and, and let me now be unashamedly sentimental, -it is saddening to see a newcomer insult one of the most kind-hearted, friendly and helpful members on this board.

I think your comments regarding Williams's artistic development vs. regression seemed rather ill-informed, and I personally find it hard not to think that your points of view are mostly a matter of nostalgia. Most of us here simply admire Williams as a composer, and don't wish to form camps of "old Williams" versus "new Williams".

In terms of compositional technique, Williams's chops have only improved (although they were pretty effing stellar all the way since the 60s), and if his scoring approach has changed, it is a matter of many factors. Before you judge a piece of incidental music like "The Jungle Chase", be sure to see how it accompanies the on-screen action. It might very well be that the sequence in question differs from pieces like "The Basket Chase", or "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra".

Actually, "The Snake Pit" is a cue very much in the vein of the lighter, more linear set-pieces of the initial Indy trilogy.

Now, when it comes to the themes from KotCS, I think they are very consistent with the style and musical lingo of the other three films, and possibly even more musically interesting. And they are certainly memorable.

As someone with a technical, analytical professional interest in Williams's style, I will say that the whole arc of his development is very consistent from ca. the 60s till today, with the most prominent artistic evolution of more recent years being the bridging of the gap between his concert music and film work.

Not that that gap was ever really very great; it's the same lyricism, the same harmonic techniques and preferences, etc., but many of the techniques he has developed in his concert works now play a greater all-round role in his film music. I am fascinated and delighted by this, not alienated. And I know many more feel the same way, although certainly not everyone.

[Henry B 50]

Listen to "Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed," then listen to "The Miracle of the Ark." The comparison speaks for itself.

[Saxman717 22]

Saxman, listen up! Miguel is anything but a jerk, which is something the whole board knows and appreciates, and, and let me now be unashamedly sentimental, -it is saddening to see a newcomer insult one of the most kind-hearted, friendly and helpful members on this board.

Before I read any of the rest of your post, I might suggest you look at my "Joined" date on my profile. It seems I've been an active member (albeit not when it comes to post numbers) longer than you or even Miguel. I joined back in the early days of the board, when TPM was released and work was being done on the complete soundtrack by members on here.

So I've talked with many people on here over almost 10 years. Yes, I find the posts that Miguel has directed towards me in this thread to be consistently arrogant and belligerent, in a snobby sort of way, and I won't just let it slide without mentioning it.

Now I'll read the rest of your post....

.....and you've given me some things to think about --- your post is much more enlightening and constructive than Miguel's posts and I thank you for that. That is what discussion is all about.

One thing I might comment on is that I'm not trying to create old vs. new Williams camps --- one thing I'm finding on here though, is that anytime members post their displeasure with the development and "growth" that JW has shown in recent incidental music scores, they are labeled as nostalgic, not as sophisticated musically etc. The people who enjoy that music should at least try to understand why people like me feel the way they do. I guarantee that there is some validity to our concerns.

[Ollie 1,059]

This thread once had promise but I guess it's impossible for one to express an opinion without pissing off someone or somone over re-acting to a post.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I think it's pure gold if you remove the tracking of Mutt's theme.

Tracking?

[Henry B 50]

I don't think so. "Adventures of Mutt" is extrapolated from the bit in "Jungle Chase."

[Josh500 1,615]

I think your comments regarding Williams's artistic development vs. regression seemed rather ill-informed, and I personally find it hard not to think that your points of view are mostly a matter of nostalgia. Most of us here simply admire Williams as a composer, and don't wish to form camps of "old Williams" versus "new Williams".

In terms of compositional technique, Williams's chops have only improved (although they were pretty effing stellar all the way since the 60s), and if his scoring approach has changed, it is a matter of many factors. Before you judge a piece of incidental music like "The Jungle Chase", be sure to see how it accompanies the on-screen action. It might very well be that the sequence in question differs from pieces like "The Basket Chase", or "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra".

Actually, "The Snake Pit" is a cue very much in the vein of the lighter, more linear set-pieces of the initial Indy trilogy.

Now, when it comes to the themes from KotCS, I think they are very consistent with the style and musical lingo of the other three films, and possibly even more musically interesting. And they are certainly memorable.

As someone with a technical, analytical professional interest in Williams's style, I will say that the whole arc of his development is very consistent from ca. the 60s till today, with the most prominent artistic evolution of more recent years being the bridging of the gap between his concert music and film work.

Not that that gap was ever really very great; it's the same lyricism, the same harmonic techniques and preferences, etc., but many of the techniques he has developed in his concert works now play a greater all-round role in his film music. I am fascinated and delighted by this, not alienated. And I know many more feel the same way, although certainly not everyone.

Well said, I agree with that!

I don't think there's that much of a difference between the 80's Williams and the Williams now (or like saxman said "old Williams" and "new Williams"). Now, before you howl bloody murder, note that I didn't say "no difference at all," but not that much of a difference. Williams still writes VERY superior themes, he still writes very superior underscore, and he still knows how to combine them in a superior fashion.

The slight difference is due to JW's growth and maturity as a composer of course, but the main reason might be that the way movies are made and also seen by the audience have changed. Maybe, if we had a score like Raiders for this new movie, it might not . . . "fit so well." It may sound . . . well, a little off, a little strange. Like I said in my review, John Williams writes music that best fits and supports the visuals, and not music that we might enjoy the most on the soundtrack album. We shouldn't forget that.

[MSM 126]

Is there any cue which is really as witty as The Basket Chase?

Of course there is...

That's nice, but I mean, are there any real ballet-like fully stand-on-it's-own pieces like Scherzo for Motorcycle, Basket Chase, Mine Car Chase, Fast Streets of Shanghai?

[Josh500 1,615]

Is there any cue which is really as witty as The Basket Chase?

Of course there is...

That's nice, but I mean, are there any real ballet-like fully stand-on-it's-own pieces like Scherzo for Motorcycle, Basket Chase, Mine Car Chase, Fast Streets of Shanghai?

Sure. A Whirl Through Academe, The Jungle Chase, The Snake Pit!