The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread

[MissPadmé 17]

So, I'm assuming you're old... Is it that what we are talking about?

Because all the rest makes no sense to me.

If you like the old Williams better, then listen to Raiders instead of complaining.

Miguel, you are really an arrogant, belligerent jerk, aren't you. For the past two days, you've attempted to belittle all my posts by acting like you are omniscient and that nothing I post makes sense.

Somehow my posts push a button with you --- well, you're showing your true lack of character in your responses to my posts.

If my posts don't make sense to you, then don't quote them and comment on them, because you're obviously not qualified to reply to them.

Enjoy banding together with your touchy clique of modern Williams soundtrack fans to shield this latest soundtrack from any criticism. All I can say is this --- I long for the thematic-based scores of the classic Williams era, when you could have a melody for a street chase in Raiders of the Lost Ark, with a brilliant, catchy melody, and then can hear a snippet of it again in Temple of Doom (near the end, before the bridge) and know exactly what that theme refers to and can laugh at the circumstance. THAT is the kind of classic moment that the old Williams style can produce. That is what is impossible to accomplish with the more incidental, less thematic music of Williams' latest scores.

You know this post proofes that your personal musical opinion counts professionally nothing. Do you know what you are critizising in your posts .. the lack of "hummable" /"Catchty" tunes... :lol:

Williams chose to write a score like this.. it was his decision..are you trying to say that Williams doesn't know how to write a score for a film anymore.. if you want to write a "humable" score and replace it for your own version of Indy 4 do it!

Catchy, humable ...These phrases could be used by anyone picked from the street, but not by an intelligent admirer of the art of music.. people like you are just the worst. People who think they are well educated in music just because they listen a lot and can hum and memorize a lot..and then think they can critisize something , what they in reality don't understand at all...

Maybe you even play an instrument, maybe very good and what does that proof regarding musical intelligence? Nothing.

Many of my collegues are PERFECT instrumentalsist and say: "Ahh hack, contempory music.. that's nothing. Alban Berg man that guy must have had a bad childhood because of that noice he is writing! Look at Mahler or Beethoven.. they composed catchy humable tunes.. that's music!"

They say that and I know everything I have to know about them..

Ok Esther I say to myself.. just let them live in their own box of ignorance and rant against everything that"Claims" to be music and not being humable...

And Miguel's posts regarding your stupidity are absolutely correct. Miguel isn't arrogant nor is he belitteling you.. he is one of the nicest people on this board who has immediately recognized how unprofessional your opinion is.. BUT.. after all this discussion here I have to say

One should not discuss personal tastes!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I wouldn't presume to debate you.

[MissPadmé 17]

I wouldn't presume to debate you.

hmm sorry I am not that good in English I am not sure I understand what that means..

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Don't worry, it's just a Trek quote.

[Neimoidian 14]

Yet, many people here seem to be at least a little disappointed with this new score as well as with the last two prequels scores, so how does it reflect the idea that "modern" Williams is not worse, but just different and sometimes even better ? I am asking this seriously with no intention to diminish his 90-00s writing since I like most of it very much.

- Chris, who still doesn't know the newest score.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yet, many people here seem to be at least a little disappointed with this new score as well as with the last two prequels scores, so how does it reflect the idea that "modern" Williams is not worse, but just different and sometimes even better ? I am asking this seriously with no intention to diminish his 90-00s writing since I like most of it very much.

- Chris, who still doesn't know the newest score.

Not "many" people. "Some" people seem disappointed.

There you have your answer! People's opinions are divided.

[Neimoidian 14]

Yet, many people here seem to be at least a little disappointed with this new score as well as with the last two prequels scores, so how does it reflect the idea that "modern" Williams is not worse, but just different and sometimes even better ? I am asking this seriously with no intention to diminish his 90-00s writing since I like most of it very much.

- Chris, who still doesn't know the newest score.

Not "many" people. "Some" people seem disappointed.

There you have your answer! People's opinions are divided.

Of course they are divided and I'm usually glad about it, but since I follow this thread for a long time, I just seem to notice there are more negative (or not very positive) opinions (I didn't count them, though), with only few who seem to praise dark and brooding latter part of album (I got such an impression). The same goes with AotC and RotS, less with latest HPs. And yet there is no one who would criticize John's earlier (less developed / less mature ?) SW or IJ projects.

[Bowie 45]

If you check out other film/music forums, you'll find that -- very much ironically -- the people with less musical education seem to find this score AWESOME (among other praiseful adjectives), whereas some of those here -- those who should be able to pick up on the clever musical devices, harmonic integrity, and newfound buoyancy in Williams' writing -- are unimpressed, and are clearly living in the past.

Williams has always been a forward-looking composer, despite his strong influences from the past (the "Star Wars" orchestral wall-to-wall leitmotivic bombast was actually innovative at the time), and for his biggest fans not to accept his progressive evolution is strikingly awry.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yet, many people here seem to be at least a little disappointed with this new score as well as with the last two prequels scores, so how does it reflect the idea that "modern" Williams is not worse, but just different and sometimes even better ? I am asking this seriously with no intention to diminish his 90-00s writing since I like most of it very much.

- Chris, who still doesn't know the newest score.

Not "many" people. "Some" people seem disappointed.

There you have your answer! People's opinions are divided.

Of course they are divided and I'm usually glad about it, but since I follow this thread for a long time, I just seem to notice there are more negative (or not very positive) opinions (I didn't count them, though), with only few who seem to praise dark and brooding latter part of album (I got such an impression). The same goes with AotC and RotS, less with latest HPs. And yet there is no one who would criticize John's earlier (less developed / less mature ?) SW or IJ projects.

Like I said, opinions are divided on current JW scores. I for one love them, just as much as (if not even more than) the 70's and 80's Williams. I can think of two reasons for this: (1) some people don't like change and (2) in the 70's and 80's the movies were better.

I may be in the minority here, but I think JW has gotten much better over the years . . . but that doesn't mean of course that the movies he scores nowadays are better.

[Neimoidian 14]

If you check out other film/music forums, you'll find that -- very much ironically -- the people with less musical education seem to find this score AWESOME (among other praiseful adjectives) (...)

Frankly, I expected (and in fact I still expect) less Williams-oriented film music fans to be even more critical, since there are a lot of people who claim he didn't write anything noteworthy since early 90s (it's a bullgarbage, but there are such a people).

[Neimoidian 14]

If you check out other film/music forums, you'll find that -- very much ironically -- the people with less musical education seem to find this score AWESOME (among other praiseful adjectives) (...)

Frankly, I expected (and in fact I still expect) less Williams-oriented film music fans to be even more critical, since there are a lot of people who claim he didn't write anything noteworthy since early 90s (it's a bullgarbage, but there are such a people).

I may be in the minority here, but I think JW has gotten much better over the years . . . but that doesn't mean of course that the movies he scores nowadays are better.

I think he vastly improved when it comes to serious scores.

[Josh500 1,615]

I may be in the minority here, but I think JW has gotten much better over the years . . . but that doesn't mean of course that the movies he scores nowadays are better.

I think he vastly improved when it comes to serious scores.

Not only the "serious" scores have gotten much better.

Another reason might be that the earlier JW scores have been listened to and experienced by us when we were at a much more impressionable age. Nowadays, we tend to be far more cynical and jaded. Nothing beats childhood memories and impressions, do they?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

To Saxman and whomever this might concern:

I originally though of privatelly replying to you, but since you posted your opinion here, I will do the same.

a) I hang around this place since early 1999, when the site was first created. I joined this version of the forum after you, but that doens't mean I haven't been around for as long.

b) You base your criticism upon taste. You long for the old Williams scores, then go listen to Raiders and the like. I don't say that to anoy you or anyone else, it's just how things are. Don't expect an artist who has integrity to change his style just to please others.

c) Williams did evolved as an artist, and nowadays he surely seems to bring his concert music into his film scores -- I can hear Soundings, Tributes and other orchestral concert works of his in this new score. Again, if you can't grow along with Williams, then go back to listen to his older scores. I'm sure he doesn't mind that, as no one here will either. They are all good scores, but this is what Williams is today, so to expect anything else from him, is just... well, for the sake of not insulting any of you, I'll rather shut up.

d) I don't hold any sort of projudice torward anyone here, in this boards, yet, let me just say that I don't need to put up with this. If you like to call me all that (arrogant, belligerent jerk, whatever), go ahead, see if I care.

Rest assured though, that from now on, I won't reply to anything you write. Goodbye.

[odnurega1 0]

Yet, many people here seem to be at least a little disappointed with this new score as well as with the last two prequels scores, so how does it reflect the idea that "modern" Williams is not worse, but just different and sometimes even better ? I am asking this seriously with no intention to diminish his 90-00s writing since I like most of it very much.

- Chris, who still doesn't know the newest score.

Not "many" people. "Some" people seem disappointed.

There you have your answer! People's opinions are divided.

Of course they are divided and I'm usually glad about it, but since I follow this thread for a long time, I just seem to notice there are more negative (or not very positive) opinions (I didn't count them, though), with only few who seem to praise dark and brooding latter part of album (I got such an impression). The same goes with AotC and RotS, less with latest HPs. And yet there is no one who would criticize John's earlier (less developed / less mature ?) SW or IJ projects.

Like I said, opinions are divided on current JW scores. I for one love them, just as much as (if not even more than) the 70's and 80's Williams. I can think of two reasons for this: (1) some people don't like change and (2) in the 70's and 80's the movies were better.

I may be in the minority here, but I think JW has gotten much better over the years . . . but that doesn't mean of course that the movies he scores nowadays are better.

If you check out other film/music forums, you'll find that -- very much ironically -- the people with less musical education seem to find this score AWESOME (among other praiseful adjectives) (...)

Frankly, I expected (and in fact I still expect) less Williams-oriented film music fans to be even more critical, since there are a lot of people who claim he didn't write anything noteworthy since early 90s (it's a bullgarbage, but there are such a people).

I may be in the minority here, but I think JW has gotten much better over the years . . . but that doesn't mean of course that the movies he scores nowadays are better.

I think he vastly improved when it comes to serious scores.

Agreed, and agreed!

[Saxman717 22]

You know this post proofes that your personal musical opinion counts professionally nothing. Do you know what you are critizising in your posts .. the lack of "hummable" /"Catchty" tunes... :lol:

Williams chose to write a score like this.. it was his decision..are you trying to say that Williams doesn't know how to write a score for a film anymore.. if you want to write a "humable" score and replace it for your own version of Indy 4 do it!

Catchy, humable ...These phrases could be used by anyone picked from the street, but not by an intelligent admirer of the art of music.. people like you are just the worst. People who think they are well educated in music just because they listen a lot and can hum and memorize a lot..and then think they can critisize something , what they in reality don't understand at all...

Maybe you even play an instrument, maybe very good and what does that proof regarding musical intelligence? Nothing.

Many of my collegues are PERFECT instrumentalsist and say: "Ahh hack, contempory music.. that's nothing. Alban Berg man that guy must have had a bad childhood because of that noice he is writing! Look at Mahler or Beethoven.. they composed catchy humable tunes.. that's music!"

They say that and I know everything I have to know about them..

Ok Esther I say to myself.. just let them live in their own box of ignorance and rant against everything that"Claims" to be music and not being humable...

And Miguel's posts regarding your stupidity are absolutely correct. Miguel isn't arrogant nor is he belitteling you.. he is one of the nicest people on this board who has immediately recognized how unprofessional your opinion is.. BUT.. after all this discussion here I have to say

One should not discuss personal tastes!

Would the Indiana Jones scores have become as famous and dear to our hearts if they had not been written in the style that they were written back then, with yes, catchy tunes that can be developed and used as labels for characters, settings or circumstances? If they had been filled with the more scattered action cues of the 2000 Williams era and didn't have the plethora of themes, such as Indy theme, Marion, Short Round, Nazi March, Basket Chase, Desert Chase, Slave Children's Crusade etc., it would have faded into obscurity ---- just as the latest prequel soundtracks have already started to do (following in suit with their movies).

There is a place for the type of music you speak of, demanding more incidental music and less themes --- even plenty of movies that flourish with such scores. The Indiana Jones series is not one of them. If JW still had the magic that he had back in the 80s, and if he has only gotten better with age and with his "growth" and maturity, then why are so many longtime JW fans only giving the soundtrack a B in the forum poll?????

Personal tastes do matter ---- that is why JW is famous today ---- because he captured the personal taste of countless people, professional musicians AND casual listeners, for decades. While Miguel's posts (for the past few days --- not just the one that you saw), had a more subtle, annoying sense of snobbery, belittling etc. , your post is outright condescending and belittling, claiming that you hold some sort of professional one-up on me in your right to analyze and judge JW's music.

I've loved JW's music since the age of 2, since I could first speak. Who are you to say that my opinion counts for nothing ---- on this forum, music theory experts should carry no more weight than the casual fan ---- it was the casual, "unprofessional" fan that allowed for the creation of this forum by embracing his brilliant early works. JW did not get famous by writing in the vein of Husa. He got famous writing in the vein of Wagner. Take that one to the bank. In a film score, hardly anyone will notice that Irina's Theme might be an inversion of Indy's theme or that there's a hidden reference to some other part of the score on the bassoons in one cue. That sort of professional analysis should actually carry less weight in judging the film score than the polling of personal tastes and expectations. The polls speak for themselves. As an album, it is a B album.....maybe B+ when the polls are rounded. That is a disappointment as an Indy score, and it is in large part due to the things that I mention in my other supposedly unprofessional posts in this thread.

[odnurega1 0]

My new favorite portion of the score is the last minute or so of "Hidden Treasure and the City of Gold", right after the War of the Worlds reference. I cant really describe why I like it so much, but each time I listen to it, I can't help but smile. I'm trying to figure out what could be happening on screen while this music plays.

[Saxman717 22]

To Saxman and whomever this might concern:

I originally though of privatelly replying to you, but since you posted your opinion here, I will do the same.

a) I hang around this place since early 1999, when the site was first created. I joined this version of the forum after you, but that doens't mean I haven't been around for as long.

b) You base your criticism upon taste. You long for the old Williams scores, then go listen to Raiders and the like. I don't say that to anoy you or anyone else, it's just how things are. Don't expect an artist who has integrity to change his style just to please others.

c) Williams did evolved as an artist, and nowadays he surely seems to bring his concert music into his film scores -- I can hear Soundings, Tributes and other orchestral concert works of his in this new score. Again, if you can't grow along with Williams, then go back to listen to his older scores. I'm sure he doesn't mind that, as no one here will either. They are all good scores, but this is what Williams is today, so to expect anything else from him, is just... well, for the sake of not insulting any of you, I'll rather shut up.

d) I don't hold any sort of projudice torward anyone here, in this boards, yet, let me just say that I don't need to put up with this. If you like to call me all that (arrogant, belligerent jerk, whatever), go ahead, see if I care.

Rest assured though, that from now on, I won't reply to anything you write. Goodbye.

a) You don't need to defend yourself there --- someone else on here called me a newcomer and I let him know otherwise

b) "Don't expect an artist who has integrity to change his style just to please others." --- yes, I know --- George Lucas proved that to us with his prequels. It certainly isn't about pleasing fans....... supposedly, Spielberg has a different ---- he's making this Indy movie "for the fans" and thinks about them with every scene that they shoot. So yes, whether JW has completely lost the ability to score like he did back in the 80s or whether he's just choosing not to do so, it is frustrating, considering the precedent set by the previous 3 Indy scores.

c)That is true, but it seems like the majority of the world can't seem to outright "grow" with JW these days ---- his themes and action cues are forgettable and are beginning to be quite repetitive (between the Star Wars, Harry Potters, Minority Report, and now I hear some similarities in this Indy score) --- you may have grown with him, and that's great, but there are countless others who are at least a little let down with his latest works.

d) I apologize for calling you a jerk, and I hope you someday consider accepting that apology --- I was frustrated with you posting again and again that I had no idea what I was talking about and that nothing I posted made sense. I could literally sense your nose sticking up at me and scoffing in each of your posts --- that is not the environment that I've seen on here very often in the past 10 years, so I voiced my displeasure at it.

[AzOutcast 122]

I just woke up and checked the ads in today's paper. Not one is advertising the new Indy score under their new CD releases. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it's lame anyway.

[Quintus 5,399]

Saxman, can't you just wait a while before proclaiming JW to be nothing short of a lost cause? That may seem like an extreme thing to say, but that is how I personally am interpreting your comments. I cannot speak for everyone else, so maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, but I'll take my chances and say that I don't think I am.

The score has not even been out a week and already you're slaughtering it. It really does sound like a case of ZOMG! OMG! John Williams raped my childhood!!!!!!!!. I'm sure you disagree, but that is the impression you're creating, from where I'm sitting.

Would it be so hard to just lay off a little, see the movie next week, absorb it, try to enjoy it? Who knows, I may be wrong, but perhaps a reappraisal of the score will be in order, after it has had time to breath and set in a while. You have barely given the damn thing three days and already it is a disaster for you.

Well I'm sorry, but that is just sad and crucially, a shame.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I think it's pure gold if you remove the tracking of Mutt's theme.

Tracking?

I didn't mean literally, just that it sounds almost like an edit because of the jarring switch.

[Hlao-roo 389]

his themes and action cues are forgettable and are beginning to be quite repetitive (between the Star Wars, Harry Potters, Minority Report, and now I hear some similarities in this Indy score)

To imply that only recently do his themes and action cues bear similarities strikes me as revisionistic. Listen, for example, to The Cowboys, Conrack, Superman: The Movie, and JFK.

[Vaderbait1 1]

his themes and action cues are forgettable and are beginning to be quite repetitive (between the Star Wars, Harry Potters, Minority Report, and now I hear some similarities in this Indy score)

To imply that only recently do his themes and action cues bear similarities strikes me as revisionistic. Listen, for example, to The Cowboys, Conrack, Superman: The Movie, and JFK.

JFK has themes? Last time I listened to it it was just a jumbled, un-melodic mess.

[Josh500 1,615]

Has anyone seen this review yet???

[RuBen_Kenobi 19]

John Williams saying "sexy" in that interview made my day.

Hmm didn't he mean "sAxy" because a few seconds later he mentions the Saxophone.. and there is a Sax in Irina's Theme?

At the begining of track 4.

After watching the video interview, you can´t deny that Williams had a really good fun doing every track of this score

The review is not bad but he is not talking about the B Skull theme or the Russian march

[odnurega1 0]

For those just listening to 30-second previews, Barnes and Noble and Wal-Mart have each placed previews on their websites.

Wal-Mart=

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9907152

Barnes and Noble=

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/Indiana-Jo...72308251/?itm=1

[Josh500 1,615]

For those just listening to 30-second previews, Barnes and Noble and Wal-Mart have each placed previews on their websites.

Wal-Mart=

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9907152

Barnes and Noble=

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/Indiana-Jo...72308251/?itm=1

Wow, not a minute too soon!!! They don't waste any time, huh?

[Ollie 1,059]

Hmmm Walmart has their's listed for $9.72.

Might have to break my policy and go to Walmart Tuesday.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Hmmm Walmart has their's listed for $9.72.

Might have to break my policy and go to Walmart Tuesday.

you are breaking a policy for 27cents?

If if were EU cents it would be more comprehensible

[Ollie 1,059]

Well I can just walk in a pay cash and walk out without having to order and wait.

With gas prises about to hit $4.00 a gallon every little savings helps...

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

Heh, in the end credits when the Raiders March returns, Williams throws a curve ball. In the first 3 films, he uses direct imitation by having the horns repeat the familiar "E-F-G-C... D-E-F" an octave lower and 1 beat later, but in KotCS, he has them doing some kind of inversion of the tune. I'm not sure I like it or not, but it definitely caught me off guard!

[King Mark 3,631]

Lowest price I've seen the c.d. advertised in Canada is 11,50$ at Best Buy.

If any fellow Kanadian sees it cheaper say so

[Lurker 5]

I bought 3 of them at Amazon (friends went in on the deal) so I'm paying $9.99 without tax and I got free shipping.

Neil

[Samuel Walters 0]

Heh, in the end credits when the Raiders March returns, Williams throws a curve ball. In the first 3 films, he uses direct imitation by having the horns repeat the familiar "E-F-G-C... D-E-F" an octave lower and 1 beat later, but in KotCS, he has them doing some kind of inversion of the tune. I'm not sure I like it or not, but it definitely caught me off guard!

It caught me completely off guard -- but in a very, very good way. It's rather indicative of the album as a whole: familiar, yet different enough to make even devoted Williams/Indy fans stop and think about it.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Hmmm Walmart has their's listed for $9.72.

Might have to break my policy and go to Walmart Tuesday.

you could go to target, and pay just 9.99, its a few cents more but you wont have to violate your own policy.

[Ollie 1,059]

I guess I should looked at Target's price.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I'm suprised that this album is selling so cheaply everywhere. I'm happy that it is, but just a little suprised.

[Incanus 5,714]

Heh, in the end credits when the Raiders March returns, Williams throws a curve ball. In the first 3 films, he uses direct imitation by having the horns repeat the familiar "E-F-G-C... D-E-F" an octave lower and 1 beat later, but in KotCS, he has them doing some kind of inversion of the tune. I'm not sure I like it or not, but it definitely caught me off guard!

Williams is incorporating Mutt's theme into Raiders March. A clever stroke and I for one am happy that he went and did something like that and did not end the piece exactly the same way this time around To some it is of course hallowed ground but I am always happy to hear new variation thrown into the mix.

[Lurker 5]

Which retailer has the extra track?

Neil

[King Mark 3,631]

extra track?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

breath, calm, take it easy

It was just a joke

i hope...

[Vaderbait1 1]

breath, calm, take it easy

It was just a joke

i hope...

Cue the panic on the boards to find a secret track.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the Target version has the extra track. Thats the one I'm getting.

At Walmart you can get the extra cover, and at Best Buy you get the bonus disc with the trailers from the movie, and the previous 3 films.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I want the one with the trailers!

[MissPadmé 17]

I wait for the first one to ask. if youcan post a link to your source Joey!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Joey never lies.

[Ollie 1,059]

Do we get any screen savers?

The cover choices are Mutt, Spalko, Indy, Marion and The Crystal Skull.

[Vaderbait1 1]

What's with the $40 version of the soudntrack on Target's website?

[Ollie 1,059]

You get a mini crystal skull?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

What's with the $40 version of the soudntrack on Target's website?

thats the two disc extended edition, 37 tracks in all including unused material, and concert arrangements, and the special Indy finale featuring music from all 4 films in an actual recording, not a cut and paste edit version.

[Vaderbait1 1]

What's with the $40 version of the soudntrack on Target's website?

thats the two disc extended edition, 37 tracks in all including unused material, and concert arrangements, and the special Indy finale featuring music from all 4 films in an actual recording, not a cut and paste edit version.

All that for 40 bucks, eh?

I bet the other 25 bucks is for a screensaver.