The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

The grail theme had such a distinctly religious melody that it would seem odd to conflate the two.

Thats what some here call the 'primary grail theme'. What we are debating here is whether the warm theme heard in Last Crusade's end credits is the 'secondary grail theme' or 'henry's theme' or a 'father-son relationship' theme.

[Adam S. 0]

I see, and I'd say its pretty closely tied to the latter 2 things and certainly that seems consistent with how JW used it in the KOTCS.

- Adam

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Just to clarify, this is my interpretation of the themes in question (which is in line with the analysis posted on this site).

Grail Theme

Knight Theme

(used in KotCS)

Papa Jones Theme

But as I said, even if this is the "official" or original designation for the themes, I can see how

the theme that's used in the latest film makes sense.

[chinaismine 64]

I've always agreed with that interpretation as well.

[Adam S. 0]

JW does mislabel his themes at times and, even when he doesn't, they can often be imprecise. In this case, I just think Henry's Theme (Knight's Theme) is kind of imprecise. Its loosely connected to Henry but functions in scenes that relate to his journey for enlightment or illumination or whatever. Henry's theme sounds better to me, otherwise its like saying that the knight is so important that it takes up a big portion of the end credits and that doesn't seem like what JW was going for. But I suppose its partly a semantic thing. I can see how there would be disagreement on this point.

- Adam

[MissPadmé 17]

I don't know-- I found it wounderful to reuse the themes but WHY IN HELL does Williams copy them exactly they were written... I mean couldn't he do a different orchestration.. has the music to be the same as Last crusade they could have tracked that, no need to rerecord that.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You're just used to those themes. Over time, it'll feel more seamless.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Just to clarify, this is my interpretation of the themes in question (which is in line with the analysis posted on this site).

Grail Theme

Knight Theme

(used in KotCS)

Papa Jones Theme

But as I said, even if this is the "official" or original designation for the themes, I can see how

the theme that's used in the latest film makes sense.

Is posting that legal?

MODERATOR'S REPLY: Not strictly legal, but it's OK posting 30-second clips as examples.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I suppose not, although the links are still there in your quote.

MODERATOR'S REPLY: You didn't have to remove the links. I put them back

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

OK thats cool to see a slight relaxation of the rules. I was a tad concerned because I got suspended for 24 hours for merely posting that I heard the OST on youtube a week or so ago...

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I suppose not, although the links are still there in your quote.

MODERATOR'S REPLY: You didn't have to remove the links. I put them back

Ah, thanks!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

After hearing the score i'm very glad to notice that the New Williams sound is an intended thing, since Williams can still compose vintage cues when he wants.

From theraider.net:

And was it just me or was the credits music really cartoonish at the end? It almost seemed a parody of the Raider's March.

Come on...

About henry's theme in the end of the movie, indy even mentions his father.

Did you notice that there is not a variation of the Ludlow's demise music on this film?

or at least a noticeable one.

[John Mulder Simpson 0]

i noticed one, when indy is abotu to shoot the cannon, the trailer part when marion says he never plans anything

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

mmm yeah sounds like it but its not blatant and has marions theme in the middle...

[Delorean90 42]

I don't think anything else would have been right for the finale than what was used, frankly.

I bet if Williams had written a new short theme for it, and I would ask why he didn't simply reuse the theme from Last Crusade, you'd disagree with me as well.

You still don't see the point.

It's not about whether the theme fits; it's not about whether the theme makes sense. It's about the very fact that it's a completely, utterly, flat out unoriginal finale. I don't listen to the finale of KOTCS because I want to hear Last Crusade and Raiders combined, I listen to it because I want to hear a KOTCS finale. Which isn't there, at all.

Okay, first off you're combining two different cues for discussion here. The comment you quoted was in reference specifically to

the wedding

. Yes, there is a very fitting finale for KOTCS. It is a new arrangement of Marion's Theme--and I love the turn it takes to go to the Raiders March. Terrific.

As for your first comment, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. What I'm saying is either way, it was fitting, it was good, and I'm not gonna get worked up over it just because it's not some mind-blowing original cue. Each finale has been based entirely on themes. This is no exception. It just so happens that this finale is once again revolving around

Indy and Marion

(heck, I don't know if that even requires anything at this point. Better safe than sorry, though), and so the finale once again revolves around that theme. I don't understand what the problem is with the finale proper. The scene with LC maybe, but definitely not the actual finale.

EDIT: D'oh!

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Alright, then I suppose when someone waited for another Indy movie and score since the day Last Crusade opened, 19 full years of announcing and cancelling, and finally sees KOTCS on opening day, expecting (and damn rightfully so I might add!) an original finale music, since that was always a major highlight of Indy, giving him a non-thematic cue for "the Departure", a reheated cue from Last Crusade and a reused theme from Raiders is okay.

That's good, because for a second I actually thought I had a point.

I don't know why people have no complaints here, I really don't. Williams' age and achievements don't forbid criticism, and this is John bloody Williams we're talking about here. I want to say "wow, listen to that" and not "well, nice to hear THIS again."

That is the standard, and in the final ten minutes of the film, he doesn't meet them, even if you exclude Marion's theme.

And the *very least* I expect of him is a new arrangement when he reuses an old cue as an hommage.

[MissPadmé 17]

And the *very least* I expect of him is a new arrangement when he reuses an old cue as an hommage.

well this is atleast one pinot I expected to be.. I don't know why he or someone else thought "Well save time! Time's money.. just re-record what you have written there instead of composing something new and use that theme in it..."

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

And why did it have to be such a long, glorious statement? It almost devalues the statements of other themes in the film.

[King Mark 3,631]

I saw the movie twice

My conclusion

This time the best cues ARE on the OST.Or almost. But no outstanding cues missing

We are not missing any Sirius Black Escapes or Goodbye Old Friends ,we are missing a few Jango's Escape like action cues and a few re-hash of Raiders and Last Crusade music.

Lets see,since the OST is filled almost to capacity ,the only thing that could be improved upon would be deleting the Raiders March in exchange for a complete Jungle Chase,or a complete Warehouse Sequence.

I was also dissapointed by the movie's Finale that sounded like Last Crusade . At least we won't spend the next 20 years hoping to see it released on c.d.

[John Crichton 4]

I don't know, I think the complete Jungle Chase almost gets to that level. Especially the statement of Marion's theme toward the start when she takes the wheel, it's totally different than any other we've heard before. The complete warehouse sequence was the only other one that really struck me.

[King Mark 3,631]

ok then,the Warehouse Sequence pt 1 could have taken the place of something like "Oxley's Dilemna"

Lets just agree we are not in a RotS like situation

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Are you less disappointed with the score after seeing the film? I find myself enjoying it more now.

[King Mark 3,631]

the themes and action pieces have grown on me. I have found their "inner coherence"

I am also more satisfied with the OST now that I have seen the film.It could still be better,but not it's not as bad as the RotS OST .And there aren't as many horrible edits as i thought

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

After hearing it more in the film, I absolutely love the pompus and threatening Russian theme. I have to say that between that and Irina's theme, I think this score has the best villain music of the series, aside from Mola Ram's theme maybe.

[indy4 155]

Is there a specific track time for the Russian Theme? I didn't know there was one, apart from Irina's Theme.

[King Mark 3,631]

it plays in Ants! I think

[Vaderbait1 1]

After hearing it more in the film, I absolutely love the pompus and threatening Russian theme. I have to say that between that and Irina's theme, I think this score has the best villain music of the series, aside from Mola Ram's theme maybe.

Me, too. The Russian theme is amazing.

I like the score even more after seeing the film. Like someone mentioned, I see the inner cohesion in the score. It "makes sense" to me now.

And yes, there is great music that is left off. No, not many cues ala ROTS, big outlandish setpieces, but a lot of the action music is NOT generic at all.

In fact, whereas Jungle Chase on the CD seems like Jango-style action music, in the film, at least to me, it seemed much more like a traditional set piece because it was allowed to develop and wasn't spliced together. (At least as badly as it was on the OST).

So I do want a complete expanded CD, because I find myself wanting the Warehouse scene, some of the nicer LC statements, the entire last half of the movie (I'm not really sure what we have and what we're missing in this department, let me explain why). A lot of the music sounds similar, but not in the bad way. It all sounds like variations on a theme, and that all the music "fits" together. Some of the pieces on the CD have better variations in the film.

[Bowie 45]

Oxley's Dilemma is a brilliant cue! WTF?!

[King Mark 3,631]

I was looking for a cue to remove to fit the complete Warehouse Sequence and complete Jungle Chase on 1 c.d.

that would be one and also Secret Doors and Scorpions

[indy4 155]

it plays in Ants! I think

Do you have a specific time?

[King Mark 3,631]

at 2.22 .The fight music seems built around it

[indy4 155]

Ooooh, thanks! Very menacing, I love it!

[King Mark 3,631]

That theme did seem to play a lot more in the film though

[indy4 155]

I have a question that was probably answered earlier, when I was avoiding this thread:

On the official website, there's an option to switch the track playing from The Raiders March to several other tracks from the original trilogy. But they sound very from the recordings on the official soundtracks of the films. I assumed they must be from the new compilation album, but some of the tracks offered on the website are not in the tracklist of the compilation album. Anybody know what's up?

[Josh500 1,615]

I don't know, I think the complete Jungle Chase almost gets to that level. Especially the statement of Marion's theme toward the start when she takes the wheel, it's totally different than any other we've heard before. The complete warehouse sequence was the only other one that really struck me.

I'm starting to think that The Jungle Chase is on the same level as Desert Chase, The Mine Cart Chase, and Belly of the Steel Beast.

I think it's that good. It's freaking awesome, in fact!

[crocodile 8,000]

After hearing it more in the film, I absolutely love the pompus and threatening Russian theme. I have to say that between that and Irina's theme, I think this score has the best villain music of the series, aside from Mola Ram's theme maybe.

I think it's even better. I didn't knew Mola Ram had a theme, until someone told me. I thought that was Pankot palace motif or something.

Is there a specific track time for the Russian Theme? I didn't know there was one, apart from Irina's Theme.

I thought they are one and the same. Irina's theme is quite versatile, appearing both in subtle noir guise (concert piece) and pompous one (Jungle Chase).

Karol

[Josh500 1,615]

Is there a specific track time for the Russian Theme? I didn't know there was one, apart from Irina's Theme.

I thought they are one and the same. Irina's theme is quite versatile, appearing both in subtle noir guise (concert piece) and pompous one (Jungle Chase).

Karol

I think the Russian theme is the second half of Irina's Theme.

[crocodile 8,000]

There is a second half? Could you tell me where so I can find it?

Karol

[Josh500 1,615]

There is a second half? Could you tell me where so I can find it?

Karol

The section played by the brass section starting at 1:45. At least I think so.

[crocodile 8,000]

Does it play anyplace else?

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

when the russians kill the area 51 guards, that is the russian theme, and has no relation with irina i think.

[crocodile 8,000]

New theme then. Cool

I'll pay attention to it when I see the movie again this evening.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

if I was not clear on the scene, it the 1st Williams cue on the film after the elvis song.

[crocodile 8,000]

Yes I remember now. Is it the same as that one in the Finale after Irina's theme and before Adventures of Mutt sections? Starting at 4:46 mark. I really like this fanfare.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

mmm i dont know, the end credits version is less militaristic.

[crocodile 8,000]

I'll check it today then.

Karol

[Bowie 45]

[Josh500 1,615]

Can you give us examples of where we can hear them on the OS album?

[crocodile 8,000]

Thanks!

Now we have to find more variations in the movie itself.

It appears in the finale. A couple of variations starting at about 3:55 and finishing at about 4:50. Nice mini little arrangement.

Karol

[Delorean90 42]

Alright, then I suppose when someone waited for another Indy movie and score since the day Last Crusade opened, 19 full years of announcing and cancelling, and finally sees KOTCS on opening day, expecting (and damn rightfully so I might add!) an original finale music, since that was always a major highlight of Indy, giving him a non-thematic cue for "the Departure", a reheated cue from Last Crusade and a reused theme from Raiders is okay.

That's good, because for a second I actually thought I had a point.

I don't know why people have no complaints here, I really don't. Williams' age and achievements don't forbid criticism, and this is John bloody Williams we're talking about here. I want to say "wow, listen to that" and not "well, nice to hear THIS again."

That is the standard, and in the final ten minutes of the film, he doesn't meet them, even if you exclude Marion's theme.

And the *very least* I expect of him is a new arrangement when he reuses an old cue as an hommage.

Okay, first off, "The Departure" was great. You didn't catch that glorious variation on the Crystal Skull theme near the end of it?

The only issue I can see with anything from the climax to the end of the credits is the usage of the theme from LC. That I could see an issue with potentially. However, as for the finale (

the wedding

), Marion's theme is a new arrangement, with some nice twists in harmony and orchestration, and it has a great segueway into the Raiders March. It is its own thing. Yes, it is reusing a theme from Raiders, but I wouldn't have it any other way. You want the

wedding

scored with anything else? Well, I don't know what to say, man. Again, the finales have always been based on main themes. This is no different. It used a theme from Raiders in a different way because that's exactly what should be there. It seems that you're so obsessed with having something 100% new, that thematic relevancy carries no weight with you.

Dude, think about this--we even got a full-out new end credits suite. We didn't get one of those Star Wars PT cut-and-paste jobs--this has new arrangements and transitions and everything! Judging by the PT, we had no reason to hope for such a thing, though it is to be expected, and we got it! If you want to argue the point of the LC usage, I can see that, but the rest of the final minutes of the film through the end credits? Nah. I don't see it.