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The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread


Ricard
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Yeah, and it works very well. The new finish is great too. Or at least I assume so, since we haven't heard the whole thing yet. There were some very subtle variations in orchestrations in the new Raiders march concert piece that makes it worth something too, it's not just the exact same thing.

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What does bother me, however, is his penchant for copying others. Take, for example, the disturbing similarity between the Superman love theme and one of the main themes in Richard Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. He really needs to refrain from doing stuff like that; it's absolutely unnecessary and makes me and others feel a bit ashamed of him.

you know,we don't care. It only bothers snotty classical elitist

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After my first two listens I'm pretty underwhelmed. There are some excellent moments but for the most part I can't help but thinking of Williams' Home Alone scores, his goofy 1960's comic romps and the weak AOTC when listening to the action material. Of course I need to hear this sucker in the film before I make a final judgment but for me this is the worst of the bunch. Now, I didn't have a reaction like this when the first three came out so there's obviously something "off" with this score.

Now, I do like the Crystal Skull theme and Irina's theme but the comedic, slapstick nature of the action cues really turn me off. And there isn't really a standout cue that can rival ANYTHING written in the first three films. The majority of it is pretty standard fare... and I never use those two words when describing Raiders, Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. However, the latter half of "Departure" was pretty interesting but it didn't wow me!

I need a few more listens but I can't say that my mind will change by May 22nd.

My two cents,

-Erik-

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I agree with you Erik. I'd give this a solid B+.

I will say this is more enrgetic and better than AOTC and ROTS but as far as IJ films go it ranks 4th. It's not better than LC.

I like Mutt's theme but it feels like too much slapstick for the film. The Jungle Chase starts out good but then there's an awkward switch to Mutt's theme and it feels out of place. The ending of the cue almost feels like a re-hash of LC. Sounds like they are heading toward a cliff.

The Crystal theme does have an eerie feel to it and there are some nice moments scattered thru out but this is 2008 Williams not 1981, 1984 or 1989.

Of course this score is still better than most everything else being composed today.

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Now, I do like the Crystal Skull theme and Irina's theme but the comedic, slapstick nature of the action cues really turn me off. And there isn't really a standout cue that can rival ANYTHING written in the first three films. The majority of it is pretty standard fare... and I never use those two words when describing Raiders, Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. However, the latter half of "Departure" was pretty interesting but it didn't wow me!

There is like one or two comedic action cues, the rest is very serious, psychological and hypnotic... are you sure you listened to the same score as me?

Besides the deliberately comedic "The Snake Pit," I can maybe see how you think "A Whirl Through Academe" is 'slapstick' in some parts, but where else? Mutt's theme is exhuberant and unrestrained... or do you mean other parts of the score? Where?!

I agree with you Erik. I'd give this a solid B+.

I will say this is more enrgetic and better than AOTC and ROTS but as far as IJ films go it ranks 4th. It's not better than LC.

I like Mutt's theme but it feels like too much slapstick for the film. The Jungle Chase starts out good but then there's an awkward switch to Mutt's theme and it feels out of place. The ending of the cue almost feels like a re-hash of LC. Sounds like they are heading toward a cliff.

The Crystal theme does have an eerie feel to it and there are some nice moments scattered thru out but this is 2008 Williams not 1981, 1984 or 1989.

Of course this score is still better than most everything else being composed today.

Wow. What an understatement. "Some nice moments?" Show me a section of the score which isn't a nice moment, or brewing into one.

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I agree with you Erik. I'd give this a solid B+.

I will say this is more enrgetic and better than AOTC and ROTS but as far as IJ films go it ranks 4th. It's not better than LC.

Indeed. Though I would say ROTS and this are on the same level for the energetic.

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Now, I do like the Crystal Skull theme and Irina's theme but the comedic, slapstick nature of the action cues really turn me off. And there isn't really a standout cue that can rival ANYTHING written in the first three films. The majority of it is pretty standard fare... and I never use those two words when describing Raiders, Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. However, the latter half of "Departure" was pretty interesting but it didn't wow me!

There is like one or two comedic action cues, the rest is very serious, psychological and hypnotic... are you sure you listened to the same score as me?

Besides the deliberately comedic "The Snake Pit," I can maybe see how you think "A Whirl Through Academe" is 'slapstick' in some parts, but where else? Mutt's theme is exhuberant and unrestrained... or do you mean other parts of the score? Where?!

I said in the action cues. So, in that I include The Adventures of Mutt (no where near the greatness of Shorty's Theme), The Snake Pit, A Whirl Through Academe, and The Jungle Chase. Put those four up against any of the GRAND action cues we have in the first three scores and it's no contest. The first three will win hands down.

And you are right... the rest if pretty darn serious, psychological and hypnotic... but it's only good music not great music.

-Erik-

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Listening to only the first seven tracks.

Really good. All three of the new theme concert suites are rock solid. Love the saxophone in "Irina's Theme." I was disappointed with "Spell of the Skull," though; I was hoping it would do more with the Ark theme.

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I also have yet to hear this score but the comments sound mostly very positive so I am beyond excited :blink: This day at work is going to feel so long. :eek2:

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Listening to only the first seven tracks.

Really good. All three of the new theme concert suites are rock solid. Love the saxophone in "Irina's Theme." I was disappointed with "Spell of the Skull," though; I was hoping it would do more with the Ark theme.

I'm the opposite. I'm kind of disappointed with Irina's theme but thought Spell of the Skull was amazing.

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I would say it's falling right where I expected, very good but not as good as the first three. Which, as I've said before, is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. But I always try to listen to these a few times before forming a definite opinion, not to mention hearing it in the film. It's a good mix of fun Indy and more brooding, darker material. The Raiders march gets some very good and original variations, and I like all the new themes so far. The Jungle Chase was one cue that I just did not want to end.

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Well, I just finished listening and overall I think it's pretty great. There are some slower moments, but there are a lot of amazing, "Williams magic" parts that I wasn't expecting. The newly arranged end of the credits had me giddy, it's just what I was hoping for with the march and shows great inspiration on Williams' part (as opposed to all the rehash in RotS, for example). More thoughts to come later, though I will say that I think it's way too early to be ranking this as definitively better or worse the other scores. It takes time for something like this to sink into its place in the series, and no real judgments should be made anyhow until we hear it in the film.

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I am on the side of the disapointed people.

This is good Williams but by no means GREAT or specially INSPIRED not to mention even 80's-sounding (come on, we have heard all this action music in the last years. There's no "balletic" cues, no constant rythms or patterns, it's all changing every X bars, going nowhere), beyond a few moments and a couple of nice themes. But HARRY POTTER films also had very good themes and some nice moments. I even think HP3 had better themes and incidental music.

About variations, I dont hear that Johnny put too much thinking for variations on the reprised themes. A few quotes here and there, but ... in TEMPLE there were all over the score and very fan to listen to. Even in CRUSADE (maybe the most varied score in leitmotives of the 4)

Finally, we always cry for expanded releases, and more specially for INDY score. But, maybe this one would benefit from a reduction. Action is too generic and light in the first part and I hear the same arrangement of the skull theme over and over again.

Best Williams score of the century? No way. I prefer CATCH ME, TERMINAL, HP3 and, of course, his last truely masterpiece A.I.

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I respect people's opinions, but I think it's amusing that some are declaring its official place in JW score history just a few hours after it leaked.

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I agree. I'm really enjoying it so far. I'm on my third listen, but I'm not going to make any kind of statement as to its quality this soon. It took me a long time to get into Raiders, and I only truly appreciated it after watching the film for the first time in 5 or more years.

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I am about half way through the first listen and I am over the moon. :blink: Just what I was hoping for!

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To be fair,there are some pretty amazing moments,such as the end of The Departure .

I get the same vibe as the RotS OST like were missing part of the picture ,especially music at the end of the film,or travelling and "panoramic shot" cues..More of Mutt's theme in the film?more of Marion?s theme?More of Irena's Theme?

POST EDITED:

Requests, offers or trades of the soundtrack are NOT allowed. Posts will be deleted, and the user may be banned from the forum.

http://jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15339

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Wonderful Williams quotes Gaudeamus Igitur in the Whirl Through the Academy :blink: An old academic song sung in graduation ceremonies (at least here in Finland). A brilliant musical joke.

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. The newly arranged end of the credits had me giddy, it's just what I was hoping for with the march and shows great inspiration on Williams' part (as opposed to all the rehash in RotS, for example).

I think that should have been the new 2008 Indy theme. No traditionnal Raiders March period.

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the last part of the album has very good mysterious music... but not sure if it sounds like an INDY score. I would say Williams is more interested in that part that in the action cues and repised themes.

agreed about early opinions. I wrote mine cause kindof "needed it" :blink: but this album really deserves a few more listens and specially watching the movie.

To be fair,there are some pretty amazing moments,such as the end of The Departure .

I get the same vibe as the RotS OST like were missing part of the picture ,especially music at the end of the film,or travelling cues..More of Mutt's theme in the film?more of Marion?s theme?More of Irena's Theme?

+70 min and you are worried for the supposedly missing bits?

BTW, RotS missing cues didnt "hugely improve" that score, IMO. What cues? the reprised old themes for the funeral? the action bits in the prologue battle? more variations on the BotH theme? nothing too special and significative. Not in the same league as the missing music from INDY2 and 3, for sure.

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Have you heard the expanded Rots score.It's tons better.

Some amazing unrelesed music:

Complete Battle over coruscant

Another Happy Landing

Revisiting Padme

Goodbye Old Friend

Going to Utapau

I am the Senate

Escaping Utapau

reunion of Anakin and Padme

The Boys Continue

Finale

On the OSt we got "Palpatines Teachings" instead of other amazing music ,which makes me wonder how the cues for album are chosen.

Maybe there are lots of "Trek to Pankot Palace " like cues in Crystal Skull and we got Orelleanas Craddle and the mariachi music instead

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Does everyone actually HEAR the themes throughout all the "mysterious music" and action cues? I can't find much of this score which isn't dripping in thematic development.........

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yeah, I heard that complete score with bits from the VG and DVDrip and, as I said, I didnt find the missing material that important (sometimes they were just a few bars)

Yeah,but it's going to take a few listens

the skull theme is almost in all those mysterious pieces, and Irina's theme is quoted (in different arrangements) in the action cues. Mostly in second half of the album, cause Mutt dominates the first. Any other?

more listens, more listens.... :blink:

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Review/Analysis (by Bowie)

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008)

Music composed by John Williams

01 Raiders March [Concert Suite]

Needs no discussion. The main theme will from hereon in be referred to as "Indy's theme".

02 Call of the Crystal [Concert Suite]

0:00-1:14 A chromatic melody (the "Crystal Theme") builds over a crescendoing

augmented motif (the "Call") similar to the "Ark Theme" from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'.

1:14-1:56 A waltzing secondary melody (the "Lullaby") introduced on oboe, played over

disorientated oscillating strings/celeste and a fragment of the Call on the harp,

ending with a sinister suspended chord.

1:56-2:27 The Lullaby is reiterated and built dramatically in the strings, with responses

from muted horn

2:27-2:55 The Crystal Theme is played furiously over the Call motif on the horns.

2:55-3:11 A brief duet between strings and woodwinds uses a chromatically rising version

of the Crystal Theme

3:11-3:50 The Crystal Theme from the opening is recapitulated -- no longer requiring the Call

to be noticed -- and consumed by the orchestra, closing with a dramatic horn fanfare.

03 The Adventures of Mutt [Concert Suite]

0:00-0:20 Three pronounced orchestral hits introduce "Mutt's Theme," first with a glimpse of

the melody on horns, then the "Descending Motif". With exhuberance, they then begin to be pieced together -- by inverting the Descending Motif, rising from the lower to the upper strings, as if Mutt is simply too energetic a character to be restrained.

0:20-0:53 "Mutt's Theme" is exposed in full (the melody followed by the Descending Motif),

and repeated.

0:53-1:16 The "Sidekick Theme" -- here introduced on woodwinds and repeated with brass --

comprises a short rising melody and a canonic variation of Indy's Theme, depicting

the budding relationship between Indy and Mutt.

1:16-2:00 Mutt's Theme and the Sidekick Theme are presented again in full,

both slightly expanded. Again, the orchestra pieces together Mutt's Theme.

2:00-2:23 Mutt's Theme and the Descending Motif are presented and developed again,

this time with Indy's Theme superimposed on top.

2:23-2:43 Mutt's Theme again on trumpets, the Sidekick Theme on horns, fragments of Mutt's

Theme, the Descending Motif, Mutt's Theme and the Sidekick Theme are

recapitulated in that order, followed finally by a coda juxtaposing the Sidekick Theme with the Descending Motif, and ending proudly with -- again -- three orchestral hits!

04 Irina's Theme [Concert Suite]

0:00-0:39 Saxophone and muted horn present "Irina's Theme," which bears much resemblance to both Indy's theme and the Crystal Theme in its melodic contour.

0:39-1:17 Horn performs Irina's Theme over trembling violas and celli, the second part of

the theme being performed by celli in canon with the violins, and is then

developed somewhat,

1:17-1:46 The violins finally take over the melody, and then continue the development over

a pedal dominant bass note. This culminates in a trilled dominant chord.

1:46-1:59 The "Russian Theme" is introduced with a brass chorale.

1:59-2:26 Low horn and cimbalom conclude with the first part of Irina's Theme,

and is left unresolved after a disturbing cluster of low cimbalom notes.

05 The Snake Pit

To be continued...

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Are you guys all speaking about a downloaded version of the album? I have a hard copy, bought today in Perth, Western Australia.

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Are you guys all speaking about a downloaded version of the album? I have a hard copy, bought today in Perth, Western Australia.

Post a picture of yourself holding that precious CD! Then I'll believe ya! :blink:

Hmmm, I haven't listened to the album yet. Am I the only one here???

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I think finding out all this score has to offer takes more than a listen or two. Williams' thematic material like the Crystal Skull theme and Irina's theme are often quoted very subtly. The Skull especially has that secondary motif that keeps repeating (e.g. in Oxley's Dilemma).

But this certainly is a darker score than the previous ones and most of this is centered in the second half of the score which is to be expected as the more serious and spooky part of the movie will begin there (I suspect).

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So far, i like it.

It is EXACTLY the kind of score you could expect from a post-2000 Williams. It was never in the cards that Williams would present us with a Cracker-Jack-Box full of surprises unheard of.

Listening to the music i guess the film's rather tired, though. The Raiders March throughout has the same sleepwalking attitude as the ever-same Star Wars main/end title reprises in the prequels.

Of all the old men trying to capture lightning in a botle twice, Williams' music tries valiantly, at least.

Thank you, maestro, he says,with the bittersweet knowledge that this may be one of the last.

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Review/Analysis (by Bowie)

Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008)

Music composed by John Williams

01 Raiders March [Concert Suite]

Needs no discussion. The main theme will from hereon in be referred to as "Indy's theme".

02 Call of the Crystal [Concert Suite]

0:00-1:14 A chromatic melody (the "Crystal Theme") builds over a crescendoing

augmented motif (the "Call") similar to the "Ark Theme" from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'.

1:14-1:56 A waltzing secondary melody (the "Lullaby") introduced on oboe, played over

disorientated oscillating strings/celeste and a fragment of the Call on the harp,

ending with a sinister suspended chord.

1:56-2:27 The Lullaby is reiterated and built dramatically in the strings, with responses

from muted horn

2:27-2:55 The Crystal Theme is played furiously over the Call motif on the horns.

2:55-3:11 A brief duet between strings and woodwinds uses a chromatically rising version

of the Crystal Theme

3:11-3:50 The Crystal Theme from the opening is recapitulated -- no longer requiring the Call

to be noticed -- and consumed by the orchestra, closing with a dramatic horn fanfare.

03 The Adventures of Mutt [Concert Suite]

0:00-0:20 Three pronounced orchestral hits introduce "Mutt's Theme," first with a glimpse of

the melody on horns, then the "Descending Motif". With exhuberance, they then begin to be pieced together -- by inverting the Descending Motif, rising from the lower to the upper strings, as if Mutt is simply too energetic a character to be restrained.

0:20-0:53 "Mutt's Theme" is exposed in full (the melody followed by the Descending Motif),

and repeated.

0:53-1:16 The "Sidekick Theme" -- here introduced on woodwinds and repeated with brass --

comprises a short rising melody and a canonic variation of Indy's Theme, depicting

the budding relationship between Indy and Mutt.

1:16-2:00 Mutt's Theme and the Sidekick Theme are presented again in full,

both slightly expanded. Again, the orchestra pieces together Mutt's Theme.

2:00-2:23 Mutt's Theme and the Descending Motif are presented and developed again,

this time with Indy's Theme superimposed on top.

2:23-2:43 Mutt's Theme again on trumpets, the Sidekick Theme on horns, fragments of Mutt's

Theme, the Descending Motif, Mutt's Theme and the Sidekick Theme are

recapitulated in that order, followed finally by a coda juxtaposing the Sidekick Theme with the Descending Motif, and ending proudly with -- again -- three orchestral hits!

04 Irina's Theme [Concert Suite]

0:00-0:39 Saxophone and muted horn present "Irina's Theme," which bears much resemblance to both Indy's theme and the Crystal Theme in its melodic contour.

0:39-1:17 Horn performs Irina's Theme over trembling violas and celli, the second part of

the theme being performed by celli in canon with the violins, and is then

developed somewhat,

1:17-1:46 The violins finally take over the melody, and then continue the development over

a pedal dominant bass note. This culminates in a trilled dominant chord.

1:46-1:59 The "Russian Theme" is introduced with a brass chorale.

1:59-2:26 Low horn and cimbalom conclude with the first part of Irina's Theme,

and is left unresolved after a disturbing cluster of low cimbalom notes.

05 The Snake Pit

To be continued...

This is great, Bowie, but I wish you'd also give brief, personal opinions on each piece. What did you like/dislike about it? Makes reading anylses more fun, you know!

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It is EXACTLY the kind of score you could expect from a post-2000 Williams. It was never in the cards that Williams would present us with a Cracker-Jack-Box full of surprises unheard of.

Prisoner of Azkaban anyone?

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Now for a sober reaction... I think this score is absolutely stunning! It's a beautifully crafted masterpiece. The interwoven themes and their development throughout the score is absolutely genius.. Irina's theme is beautiful. It's amazing how Williams is able to capture the nature of a character so well with a single piece of music. He manages to capture the feeling that Irina is, although a villain, a beautiful and vulnerable woman.. It's eerie, yet romantic and vulnerable, sweet.

I love how Williams is able to merge the fun scherzo-esque action cues, with more dangerous sounding action music so seamlesly. And the whole finale cues sound so exciting and compelling and mysterious. I really can't wait to see the film.

Regardless of whether there's a couple of instances of "Williams ripping Williams", there's still plenty of development within old references. Heck, he even manipulates the Raiders march in a few places (the fourth note [being the root note of the key] moves to the octave below rather than moving up to the higher octave).. And I always think that Williams ripping Williams is still pretty originally done. It's never a note for note rip, at least..

So much to say, I need more listens!

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OMG this is what I wanted! My day is perfect and man oh man that variation of the raiders march in the end is awesome, but this brought an idea in my head. Is this a mutt williams variation? It sounds somewhat reminiscent to his theme in my opinion

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The new samples are great and show that there is a lot more to these tracks. I'm really liking "Call of the Crystal," "Irina's Theme" and "The Adventures of Mutt."

Just as I thought... Oh boy! How come there Mexican music in one of the samples?

That's interesting...

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i must say...i'm....underwhelmed too. its good, but its no PoA and I'm not sure whether its even ROTS. Irina's theme doesnt do anything for me at the moment. that said, i havent heard the whole thing, seen the film or even heard it in decent quality.

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I think it´s a little unfair to compare it to the old 3 indy scores without having seen the movie, especially with arguments like "The action cues are more goofy than serious".

I mean, what if the action sequences are goofy in their style? Should he write dark material which would absolutely not fit the mood of what´s seen on the screen.

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The new samples are great and show that there is a lot more to these tracks. I'm really liking "Call of the Crystal," "Irina's Theme" and "The Adventures of Mutt."

Just as I thought... Oh boy! How come there Mexican music in one of the samples?

That's interesting...

Well most likely the Mexican flavoured music in Journey to Akator is source music heard somewhere in the South America location in the film. And for those who think the transition from Raiders March montage music is too awkward you just have to get used to it in film music.

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It's sound incredible awesome dude! Grave Robbers might give me the creeps when I go and see the movie in the theaters.

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I'm going to assume that anyone using more than 6 adverbs in one continuous chain is gushing.

So therefore, everyone else who is giving a real analysis...leads me to believe it is another competent 2000s John Williams effort.

Is the action music in the Mickey-Mousey Xylophony mood of HP1 and 2 and TPM, or the good ol' John Williams?

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It doesn't bother me Williams might copy himself from time to time. What does bother me, however, is his penchant for copying others. Take, for example, the disturbing similarity between the Superman love theme and one of the main themes in Richard Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. He really needs to refrain from doing stuff like that; it's absolutely unnecessary and makes me and others feel a bit ashamed of him.

Man, you talk as if Superman had been written last week :P

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Is the action music in the Mickey-Mousey Xylophony mood of HP1 and 2 and TPM, or the good ol' John Williams?

The former, but with more thematic content and sometimes frolicking scherzos, courtesy of Sergej Prokoviev, interrupt the proceedings. It's good, actually!

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