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The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread


Ricard

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I've listened to the album three times now, and each time, I think the same thing. There are a few standout cues that I really enjoy, but the rest seems so...mediocre. I know that is a very strong word, but it is what I feel. I think its better than some of the stuff that Williams has done in the past, but not the "perfect" score that everyone was hoping for.

Part of me thinks that if I wouldn't have held my expectations so high for this album, I would enjoy it more. I was so excited to be getting a new Williams score (especially after a two-year wait, that I got a little too excited.

Having said all that, if the album was presented better (ie. not a hack job), I may enjoy it more. I have a feeling that there are a lot of standout cues missing.

Off to finish listening to "Finale"....

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This is STUNNING!!! This is the apotheosis of Williams's Indy-writing, and much, much more at that.

In a way, it is similar to "Prisoner of Azkaban" in as much as being a thrilling combination of old and new, and it can at times work as a perfect encapsulation of many facets of Williams's style.

However: This is so much richer than a mere recap and a collection of nods and hints, this is Williams truly going to town with his younger self.

Technically, compositionally speaking, the motivic work and sheer architectural brilliance of something like "The Adventures of Mutt" is beyond what Williams could do in the 70s/80s, and to state otherwise is, well, simply just nostalgia.

This shows a man whose faculties, whose expertise, prowess and experience, allow him to take a step back, and be "unhindered" by the material.

Yes, Williams is a braver composer in his present incarnation, and much more free and playful in how he treats his material.

And I think the theme(s) for the crystal skull (both themes; they're used separately, and combined; I'm referring to the two lines of the French article transcription, so easily misinterpreted as melody and bass line, but in fact two separate motivic identities!) must be one (or two..) of Williams's most iconic audiovisual gems since "Jaws".

The rising tritones capture the mystery of the skull so perfectly, and with a brilliant seeming simplicity only Williams can achieve. Of course, all of the surrounding writing and orchestrations are pure magic as well!

I am STUNNED! THRILLED!! FLABBERGASTED!!!

Seriously, this is great! And it is simply silly not to admit it!

(And completely on par with the other Indy scores, and at times better. Better than all of them! Yes, I am dead serious!)

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God, I have to say it too...I absolutely adore this score! Certainly one of JW better efforts.

I can't get enough of The Jungle Chase, A Whirl Through Academe, Journey to Akator, Irina's Theme, and Finale!

:P

Take your favorites and add "Call of the Crystal" and "Ants", while getting rid of "Irina's Theme" and "Journey to Akator" (although I like the source music) , and you have the reason why I can't shake the album, even after writing the above post.

Was that a bit confusing? I have to admit I laughed when I read it back...it seemed like I was reciting a recipe while drunk or something.

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Is it me, or does even the Raiders March sound fantastic here???

It sounds somehow . . . fresher, more vibrant! :P

I agree, and I love what Williams does with it at the end of "Finale". It reminds me of his theme for the NBC Football, which I love.

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Is it me, or does even the Raiders March sound fantastic here???

It sounds somehow . . . fresher, more vibrant! :P

I agree, and I love what Williams does with it at the end of "Finale". It reminds me of his theme for the NBC Football, which I love.

Yeah, this is Williams having fun and wanting to surprise his fans, I'm sure...

:)

P.S. I would give it a solid 5, all the other Indy scores get a 5+ from me! (But TGE, ask me in a month or so. It's too early to tell anyway!)

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The woodwinds dominate too much in this new Raiders March. Vanilla Raiders March for the win!

The highlights of the score, ironically, are in the darker bits.

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Hey, everybody, listen to The Jungle Chase starting at 2:30!!! This sounds like the NBC football theme . . . at least at the beginning.

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The end of the finale cue is indeed a refreshing take on it.

I'd say I'm 'impressed' by roughly half the album, with the other half just being fairly standard Williams music.

I really wish I could share the enthusiasm of you guys, but I guess our differences are what make this place interesting :P

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I don't know... I love that score but.. I cant get into The Jungle Chase.. I suspect it is being chopped up it has no flow at all.. just as one part starts to develop.. another part jumps in without any "prewarning" this isn't a williams action cue.. well the music of course is but the presentation sounds more like from an Ottman score

and in gneral there are to many self repetitions in that score.. Johnny is allowed to do that yes.. but why.. can't he come up with something new..?

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Yeah...this nails John Williams into Jerry Goldsmith's last 10 years category...

"Interesting rehashes of everything we've heard before, and a few striking creative cues."

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Hey, everybody, listen to The Jungle Chase starting at 2:30!!! This sounds like the NBC football theme . . . at least at the beginning.

Yeah! I heard that! It's a bunch of Williams wrapped up into one! I know I made a somoewhat negative post about it yesterday, but I really enjoy being able to hear bits and pieces of Williams' style in this new score. It is like a grab-bag of various moments of his career. :P

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Hey, everybody, listen to The Jungle Chase starting at 2:30!!! This sounds like the NBC football theme . . . at least at the beginning.

Yeah! I heard that! It's a bunch of Williams wrapped up into one! I know I made a somoewhat negative post about it yesterday, but I really enjoy being able to hear bits and pieces of Williams' style in this new score. It is like a grab-bag of various moments of his career. :P

It's not negative at all. I love it. After all, it's just a similar "powerful" mode . . . not the same freaking melody! :)

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Yeah...this nails John Williams into Jerry Goldsmith's last 10 years category...

"Interesting rehashes of everything we've heard before, and a few striking creative cues."

I think you've nailed it. There doesn't seem to be anything new, stylistically. I've heard WotW, Minority Report, Hook, Home Alone, Superman and a tiny bit of Geisha.

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Regardless, as I said with Horner and Jerry, I will say it with Williams.

There is nothing inherently bad with ripping off BRILLIANT materials.

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Yeah...this nails John Williams into Jerry Goldsmith's last 10 years category...

"Interesting rehashes of everything we've heard before, and a few striking creative cues."

I think you've nailed it. There doesn't seem to be anything new, stylistically. I've heard WotW, Minority Report, Hook, Home Alone and Superman.

I share that opinion.. I add: HP III: PoA, Episode 1, Jurassic Park.. these things somehow bother me I don't know

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Yeah...this nails John Williams into Jerry Goldsmith's last 10 years category...

"Interesting rehashes of everything we've heard before, and a few striking creative cues."

I think you've nailed it. There doesn't seem to be anything new, stylistically. I've heard WotW, Minority Report, Hook, Home Alone and Superman.

And let me add: Thank God!

Williams has a consistent, well-defined style (that obviously encompasses a whole host of references), and has had for a very, very long time.

Now, there can be technical evolvement within stylistic confines, and KOTCS certainly has plenty of it!

Again, "The Adventures of Mutt" being a perfect case-in-point.

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The rising tritones capture the mystery of the skull so perfectly, and with a brilliant seeming simplicity only Williams can achieve. Of course, all of the surrounding writing and orchestrations are pure magic as well!

Exactly what I've been thinking today! a simple idea that must be very effective in the movie. I told a friend of mine that they were to ascending tritones repeated over and over again, and started to hum it and he loved the idea.

Yes, Williams is a braver composer in his present incarnation, and much more free and playful in how he treats his material.

Definitely he is having so much fun with the orchestra and the themes (this trend, to be noticed especially in action tracks, is no new in Williams though, he's been writing like that in recent years).

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Regardless, as I said with Horner and Jerry, I will say it with Williams.

There is nothing inherently bad with ripping off BRILLIANT materials.

I agree, but it's what you do with those materials that matter.

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That's the only thing that bugs me. John Williams does it, and its integrated into his style. James Horner does it, and he is a self-copying hack that deserves to be be stripped of his composer duties!

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Yeah...this nails John Williams into Jerry Goldsmith's last 10 years category...

"Interesting rehashes of everything we've heard before, and a few striking creative cues."

I think you've nailed it. There doesn't seem to be anything new, stylistically. I've heard WotW, Minority Report, Hook, Home Alone and Superman.

And let me add: Thank God!

Williams has a consistent, well-defined style (that obviously encompasses a whole host of references), and has had for a very, very long time.

Now, there can be technical evolvement within stylistic confines, and KOTCS certainly has plenty of it!

Again, "The Adventures of Mutt" being a perfect case-in-point.

I don't think anyone's arguing that his style is wrong.

As I've said before, I can't put my finger on exactly what's lacking with this score - it just hasn't really done it for me.

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No, in regards to self-copying, he's not ripping-off, it's mostly his style (in the case of James Horner, that is). Not always, but mostly, it's just style.

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I think I'm definitely in the minority here with this opinion...but, here goes;

I love the last four cues of this album. Yes, they might sound a bit "chopped" or edited...but, I think they're all great regardless. I can't get enough of "Ants!"; the percussion and the permutations/abbreviated snippets of what I think is the Russian Soldier theme are great. "Temple Ruins/The Secret Revealed" has some absolutely wonderful moments in it; I love the moment at 2:57...the tuba accompanied by the ascending string glissandi. Pure. Vintage. Williams.

"The Departure" sent chills up my spine...especially at 1:00 in...and the remainder of that track is wonderful as well. Definitely some "Harry Potter-esque" moments in the final moments (the 6/8 rhythm, the woodwind flourishes)...and the Crystal Skull theme gets a wonderful, triumphant, and Major trumpet statement that absolutely made the hair on my arms stand up!

I love the tender, emotional, sweeping opening of "Finale"...but, I somehow feel that the abrupt transition into Indy's theme HAS to be a soundtrack edit; it just seems too sudden, and the key change doesn't sit with me that well either. But, the version of Indy's theme that follows...well, I would definitely say it's more vibrant and energetic than what we heard on "The Last Crusade" album.

Anyways...my judgment after my initial listening is...I think this is one of Williams' finest works of the last ten years. Perhaps not the "perfect" score some were expecting (I think some of that fault may lie with how the album has been edited), but a strong, memorable, and most importantly to me, energetic and fun collective work.

Cheers, everyone!

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Yeah...this nails John Williams into Jerry Goldsmith's last 10 years category...

"Interesting rehashes of everything we've heard before, and a few striking creative cues."

I think you've nailed it. There doesn't seem to be anything new, stylistically. I've heard WotW, Minority Report, Hook, Home Alone and Superman.

And let me add: Thank God!

Williams has a consistent, well-defined style (that obviously encompasses a whole host of references), and has had for a very, very long time.

Now, there can be technical evolvement within stylistic confines, and KOTCS certainly has plenty of it!

Again, "The Adventures of Mutt" being a perfect case-in-point.

I don't think anyone's arguing that his style is wrong.

As I've said before, I can't put my finger on exactly what's lacking with this score - it just hasn't really done it for me.

I have the same problem.. I don't know as if something is missing.. I expected things to be a littlebit better developed. BUT this is only the Album cut!

and again BUT:

Irina's Theme is obviously made for the album.. then why the hell is it sooo short. it is sooo beautiful.. I think Williams could have done much more here.. and even if it would only be a proper intro or something.. it just starts out of nothing

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No, in regards to self-copying, he's not ripping-off, it's mostly his style (in the case of James Horner, that is). Not always, but mostly yes.

I love James Horner as much as the next film score fan, but I think that he is not using melodies over and over again due to his style. He knows he has hit something good, and he reuses it, note for note. I could give you examples, but this is not the thread, nor do I have the time, to do so.

As for Williams, I think (and i am going out on a limb here) that this is the first time in which he has used so many chunks of his past scores in one single score. Yes, they are great pieces of great themes, but the fact remaims, they were written for one movie at one time, and are now being used for a second time, in some cases years later, in a new movie.

I don't know why I felt the need to explain that. "Thank You, Captain Obvious", you're thinking. ;)

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No, in regards to self-copying, he's not ripping-off, it's mostly his style (in the case of James Horner, that is). Not always, but mostly yes.

I love James Horner as much as the next film score fan, but I think that he is not using melodies over and over again due to his style. He knows he has hit something good, and he reuses it, note for note. I could give you examples, but this is not the thread, nor do I have the time, to do so.

As for Williams, I think (and i am going out on a limb here) that this is the first time in which he has used so many chunks of his past scores in one single score. Yes, they are great pieces of great themes, but the fact remaims, they were written for one movie at one time, and are now being used for a second time, in some cases years later, in a new movie.

I don't know why I felt the need to explain that. "Thank You, Captain Obvious", you're thinking. ;)

Sometimes Horner has reused his own material, but most of the times, in my opinion, he hasn't.

But John Williams doesn't even remember that he wrote Fawkes for HP2, let alone recall the notes he wrote many years ago for an specific cue.

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No, in regards to self-copying, he's not ripping-off, it's mostly his style (in the case of James Horner, that is). Not always, but mostly yes.

I love James Horner as much as the next film score fan, but I think that he is not using melodies over and over again due to his style. He knows he has hit something good, and he reuses it, note for note. I could give you examples, but this is not the thread, nor do I have the time, to do so.

As for Williams, I think (and i am going out on a limb here) that this is the first time in which he has used so many chunks of his past scores in one single score. Yes, they are great pieces of great themes, but the fact remaims, they were written for one movie at one time, and are now being used for a second time, in some cases years later, in a new movie.

I don't know why I felt the need to explain that. "Thank You, Captain Obvious", you're thinking. ;)

Sometimes Horner has reused his own material, but most of the times, in my opinion, he hasn't.

But John Williams doesn't even remember that he wrote Fawkes for HP2, let alone recall the notes he wrote many years ago for an specific cue.

Can't really argue with that.

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Well, I love this score, I really do :)

It appears it's not to everyones taste or expectations, but it is what it is.

Apart from the more larger than life aspects that I find so exciting in it are also the tiny, almost delicate touches.

A great example for me is in The Journey to Akator just after 50 secs as it builds towards Indy's theme, it's preceded by a short 3 note string figure.

So simple, so JW, so cool ;)

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"The Departure" sent chills up my spine...especially at 1:00 in...and the remainder of that track is wonderful as well. Definitely some "Harry Potter-esque" moments in the final moments (the 6/8 rhythm, the woodwind flourishes)...and the Crystal Skull theme gets a wonderful, triumphant, and Major trumpet statement that absolutely made the hair on my arms stand up!

I wonder what THAT accompanies... ;)

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some of the FOOLS here must honestly believe that John listens to classical music just so he can steal from it. He doesn't, mostly its just similarities that anal little twerps jump on and conclude that John is a plagerist.

You've probably never even heard Death and Transfiguration.

First, let me start by apologizing for the length of this reply. But, as a thoroughly educated professional musician and John Williams enthusiast, this topic gets me quite agitated.

I've heard Death and Transfiguration. In fact, I've PERFORMED all of the greatest classical works you can ever possibly name; I've received some of the finest music education money can buy in that I have two degrees in Music Performance. One is from The Juilliard School, the other is from the Indiana University School of Music. I've been a professional timpanist/percussionist for nearly 15 years...and during my time at Indiana University, I studied Music Theory and Music History in every possible way, shape, and form. We studied every single minute detail of music you could ever think of and from every conceivable angle, viewpoint, and stance.

If you think, for one second, that John Williams is the first and only composer who has ever "borrowed" or "plagiarized" ideas, motifs, arrangements, orchestration, or any other possible musical term/idea from another composer "for profit", as you say...then, you SERIOUSLY need to go back and study your music history and theory a little more closely.

Nearly every single great composer/musician in music history owes a part of their greatness, no matter how big or small, to those who have come before them. The great classical composers of the true "classical" era (Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn) influenced each other to a great degree; some theorists even postulate that these greats even went so far as to “borrow” from each other as well. In fact, if you closely dissected much of classical music (which you seem to hold in such high regard) with the intent of doing so, you could find many instances of “plagiarism”...if you look hard enough.

And it’s not just the realm of classical music that gives us the chance to point our fingers and shout “UNORIGINAL” at the top of our lungs. The Beatles, whom many people (including myself) believe to be one of the greatest “pop” bands ever, were GREATLY influenced by The Beach Boys. In fact, many people would claim that The Beatles’ greatest album, “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band”, owes much of its success to the Beach Boys’ “Pet Sounds” album.

Lastly, and also in the realm of “pop” music; one of the songs that Frank Sinatra was most famous for performing, “I Did It My Way”, sounds nearly identical in many sections to the Second Movement of Beethoven’s Piano Sonata No. 8 in c-minor, Op 33., “The Pathetique”.

As I said before, I studied at two of the finest music education institutions in the country...and I’ve encountered your “argument” and people who think as you do many, many times over. You certainly are entitled to your opinion, and, truth be told, there is some validity to your “claim”. Examples...certain sections of the score to “Star Wars: A New Hope” are so similar to Holst’s “The Planets” that it’s quite shocking. The scores to the first two “Home Alone” bear strikingly obvious similarity to Tchaikovsky’s “The Nutcracker”. The first six notes of Han Solo and Princess Leia’s Love Theme sound almost identical to the theme of the First Movement of Tchaikovsky’s Violin Concerto. And, finally, the melody of one of Williams’ newest themes (Irina Spalko’s theme) sounds like a direct tribute to one of Brahms’ most famous themes, from the Third Movement of his Third Symphony. Hell, even my favorite Williams theme of all time, "Indiana Jones' Theme", could be looked at as "borrowing" some of its ideas from Strauss' "Don Juan"; if I wanted to make that much of a stretch, I could. Also, I could go on all day citing examples, spouting facts, and referencing my wealth of musical education and knowledge of classical music like a snob...but, I won’t bore anyone any further with such patronizing nonsense.

Bottom line is this; all great (and often non-great) music is derivative in some way, shape, or form. It’s nearly impossible for any one composer to be so completely and entirely creative as you would like to have people believe. Perhaps the only two composers I can think of who could come close to being heralded as “entirely original” are Bach and Bartok. But, even they were derivative in some way, no matter how "small". If I had to name someone who as almost completely original in all of his works...I would have to name John Cage; but, I don't want to make anyone "in the know" roll their eyes and start scoffing.

Again, there is some merit in your argument...but, your “judgment” against Williams reminds me of the people I’ve encountered before who have made the same accusation. They haughtily (and sometimes vociferously) cry out about Williams’ “unoriginality”...and usually because he is successful and probably the closest thing we have to a modern-day classical composer who is well known in his time (much in the same way that Beethoven was in his; when Beethoven was alive...classical music was the “pop” music of its culture in many ways). But, to make this accusation against Williams and somehow make it seem like he owes all of his success to his “unoriginality” is completely ridiculous. If anything, it shows that he, like the great composers before him, is steeped in knowledge of music history and theory. He shows a profound and complete grasp of what, and more importantly, WHO has come before him. Like Beethoven, Mozart, and other great classical composers, he pays tribute to the people who have made his art and craft possible. He derives from the incredible works that have come before him because that is what nearly all great composers have done. If you think that it's "just a basic part of human morality to find fault in someone artistically profiting off of the work of others"...then, you should find fault in the majority of musicians who have been financially or artistically successful in the past; and this includes whatever classical composers you hold as "sacred" or "untouchable". Why? Because, as I said before, you can make the same claim against them. Perhaps their "borrowings" aren't as "obvious" as Williams...but, believe me, they're there; sometimes you have to look closely to find what you're looking for, and sometimes you don't. (Besides, what constitutes "plagiarism" to you appears to be "tributes" to others who are perhaps a little less critical or judgmental.)

If nothing else...think of Williams' "plagiarism" as a way of keeping the spirit and music of other great composers who came before him alive.

And if you think Williams is a “plagiarist”...try listening to some James Horner. Then you’ll know what “unoriginality” really sounds like. (I should clarify that this isn’t how I feel about Horner...but, it’s a great way to throw the wolves off of Williams.)

Also, Humpty Dumpty, please...don't take this as an open invitation to get into a "who knows more about music" debate...because I won't even respond if you try such a thing. I wasn't trying to "one up" you with this post...I was merely trying to demonstrate that it IS posible for a "real" musician who is educated in music to hear the same music you hear and take an entirely different stance on the matter. Thanks.

It is true there are many examples of plagiarism even amongst the “great” composers. One such example would be Mozart using material from Handel in the Kyrie of his Requiem. However, I haven’t uncovered a consistent enough trend of plagiarism in his work to call it a problem. The finale of Beethoven’s “Tempest” Sonata sounds like a figure in Mozart’s “Prague” Symphony. Handel himself once responded to a critic accusing him of plagiarism by saying that “[he] knew how to use it better.” Brahms was similarly accused of copying Ode to Joy in his Symphony no. 1. Brahms replied, “Any idiot can see that!” From that comment, you can see that Brahms, who was notoriously fastidious, must have felt a bit guilty about this similarity, although the similarity here, in my opinion, is probably too subtle to have been intentional. However, even though there are passages in the work of the big composers that can be construed as having been plagiarized, does that mean plagiarism is okay? Wagner was a great composer who was anti-Semitic; do you think that makes anti-Semitism okay? You also seem to be conflating, to a degree, the concept of plagiarism and stylistic influence. This is not about style; this is about specific content. If you read my comments from before, you would also see I don’t consider John Williams a bad composer on account of his plagiarism and am actually concerned about his plagiarism mostly because I know he’s talented enough not to have to resort to it to write good music.

As far as which composers were the most “original,” I’m surprised by your citing Bach as being amongst that group. Bach was very conservative in his musical language to the extent that many of his contemporaries thought of him as a reactionary. What makes him great is not that he was original but that he took all of the existing technical materials and used them better and more fully than any composer before him. He has a very personal voice easily identifiable by the listener, but I wouldn’t call him the most forward-thinking of composers. I’d certainly put, say, Stravinsky before Bach in that regard.

And no, I wasn’t attempting to imply by my comment that anyone who disagreed with me had necessarily to be ignorant about music. I only assumed Joey knew nothing because he debates with abusive remarks instead of reasoned arguments, and my assumption appears to be correct, at least in the case of his not having heard Death and Transfiguration.

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You know I would like the plagiarism of classical composers debate OUT OF THIS THREAD please

As I've said before, I can't put my finger on exactly what's lacking with this score - it just hasn't really done it for me.

Me too.

Some elements:

The new themes are good not great

Raiders March re-recording is totally unnessesary,and we get it TWICE,once in hacked up glory

Re-use of Raiders material in Journey to Alkator (I could easily see the revamped Raiders March at the end of Finale used here)and Marion's theme in the Finale (although nicely orchestrated) is a waste.

The score seems hacked to pieces,and the real Finale seems to be missing.

The "comedic" action cues have no thematic drive ,shift focus all the time and are just dragged out untill they suddenly end .They remind me of the mickey mousing Burglar Chase cues in Home Alone 2,which I never liked that much.

The dark material (Orellanas Cradle,Oxleys Dilemna...)is somewhat uninteresting to listen to.

On top of my head I liked Call of the Crystal,Adventures of Mutt is the best bouncy cue ,Jungle Chase is alright but does not flow well,the ending of The City of Gold,The Secret Revealed and Departure are great ,but that's like 4 minutes combined .And that variation of the Raiders March at the end of the Finale is amazing,but much too little too late.

So far,I rank this BELOW the SW Prequel and Harry Potter scores,and ABOVE such scores as Minority Report and War of the Worlds.

Could change after I see the movie

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As I've said before, I think I know what's missing.

Charm & grace.

Gone is our 20th century Tchaikovsky in Crystal Skull.

In the past even when John scored wall-to-wall or even not, he understood the principle of less is more, that before you can explode the orchestra you should slow it down or let it take a break. He understood that you can write action with only a few pieces in the orchestra. If he did go all out with a dense and non-stop cue, he injected it with such uniqueness that when you heard it it was unmistakable.

His music wasn't about density, but rather grace, uinqueness and quality. It was class. His complexity was in his notes, his themes, his melodic writing, his catchy atonality/dissonance, not in the number of layers or quantity of notes he wrote.

Couple this with the fact that a lot of the music sounds familiar, like a composer running through the numbers...

And you get..."something missing." It's simply not an inviting score. It tries to do too much, and spreads thin.

;)

Ironically where Jerry Goldsmith took "less is more" too far, John Williams is taking "more is more..." too far.

Ah well...*pops in Prisoner of Azkaban*

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Now that many people had the opportunity to give the album several spins, here's a question that's on my mind I would really like to discuss: do you find it odd, or even slightly disturbing, that KOTCS is featuring such a palette of new and old themes that it almost lacks focus?

Before you're gearing up, let me elaborate. This is the only Indy score that doesn't feature a new, rousing theme for the finale, but instead reuses Marion's theme. Raiders had essentially the same finale. Temple Of Doom had Willie's Theme, Last Crusade had the Holy Grail theme. Crystal Skull features nothing new here, and given that the "Finale" cues were always a major highlight of all Indy scores, Indy 4 lets us down in that regard. I'm not talking about the actual credits, but the final minutes of the film.

Here's a provocative question: is Marion's Theme really necessary? Is her role big enough to warrant its existence in such a grand way? Couldn't Williams have written a new melody, a "Jones family theme" so to speak, like he did in Last Crusade? After all, this is a whole new relationship. Doesn't the "Marion finale" take away a big chunk of originality?

And another question: is it written in stone that the concert arrangement of the Raiders March contains Marion's Theme? Was it played like this in Temple Of Doom? In Last Crusade? No.

I realise that Williams probably took the opportunity to record a new, definite version of the original Raiders March arrangement, but the point is that Marion's Theme takes center stage in moments where you'd expect moments of pure, original Williams bliss.

Why couldn't he record a Raiders March version with Irina's Theme or the Skull Theme in between? And I'm not counting the end credits, which are an apparent edit.

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Here's to hoping that the music presented in the film is far different than the music we are treated to on the OST, in that it contains these smaller moments where we are allowed to breathe.

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Here's a provocative question: is Marion's Theme really necessary? Is her role big enough to warrant its existence in such a grand way? Couldn't Williams have written a new melody, a "Jones family theme" so to speak, like he did in Last Crusade? After all, this is a whole new relationship. Doesn't the "Marion finale" take away a big chunk of originality?

I agree.

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Listen to Temple of Doom. It's density is balanced out by moments of sheer simplicity...and quiet moments...and to top it off each track is given its own distinct flavor. No two action cues sound alike, no two suspense cues sound alike, etc. There is a balance between complex suspense and simple suspense. Complex action, and basic action.

It creates a more inviting and satisfying listening experience.

For example, "Slave Children's Crusade" builds with a cascading effect, as the orchestra one by one comes in and takes turns rendering the glorious theme...and gradually coming together to knock your socks off. The frenzy and density is earned, not simply thrown in from the get-go.

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All I have to say right now is: With that awesome version of the Raiders theme in the Finale track: Why didn't he use this elsewhere? Simply re-playing a theme throughotu a movie is always worse than new versions. I always felt there was only one way the Raiders theme COULD be played, but now that I hear a different version I wish I could have heard it more often to mix things up a bit.

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All I have to say right now is: With that awesome version of the Raiders theme in the Finale track: Why didn't he use this elsewhere? Simply re-playing a theme throughotu a movie is always worse than new versions. I always felt there was only one way the Raiders theme COULD be played, but now that I hear a different version I wish I could have heard it more often to mix things up a bit.

I added that to my complaint list .It should have been this altered version used for the Map/Plane montage for example instead of the Raiders re-hash .Why does it suddenly pop up in the last seconds of the album like an after thought?

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I just got confirmation from Play.com that my KOTCS cd was shipped today. That's pretty early, I didn't expect it to be released before the 19th. That way, I'll probably receive it on the 19th.

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By the way, anyone else noticed the "Gaudeamus Igitur" theme interpolated in track 8 "A Whirl Through Academe"?

Someone else mentioned this too...I picked up on something that sounded like it was a quote of something, but not anything I'd heard before. Appropriately "academic" sounding - what's the piece from?

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