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The 2nd OFFICIAL Indy IV Score Thread


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It is true there are many examples of plagiarism even amongst the “great” composers. One such example would be Mozart using material from Handel in the Kyrie of his Requiem. However, I haven’t uncovered a consistent enough trend of plagiarism in his work to call it a problem. The finale of Beethoven’s “Tempest” Sonata sounds like a figure in Mozart’s “Prague” Symphony. Handel himself once responded to a critic accusing him of plagiarism by saying that “[he] knew how to use it better.” Brahms was similarly accused of copying Ode to Joy in his Symphony no. 1. Brahms replied, “Any idiot can see that!” From that comment, you can see that Brahms, who was notoriously fastidious, must have felt a bit guilty about this similarity, although the similarity here, in my opinion, is probably too subtle to have been intentional. However, even though there are passages in the work of the big composers that can be construed as having been plagiarized, does that mean plagiarism is okay? Wagner was a great composer who was anti-Semitic; do you think that makes anti-Semitism okay? You also seem to be conflating, to a degree, the concept of plagiarism and stylistic influence. This is not about style; this is about specific content. If you read my comments from before, you would also see I don’t consider John Williams a bad composer on account of his plagiarism and am actually concerned about his plagiarism mostly because I know he’s talented enough not to have to resort to it to write good music.

As far as which composers were the most “original,” I’m surprised by your citing Bach as being amongst that group...I wouldn’t call him the most forward-thinking of composers. I’d certainly put, say, Stravinsky before Bach in that regard.

As I figured you would, it seems to me that you're attempting to turn this into a game of one-ups. I'm not going to be bated into that kind of debate; I left music school long ago and feel no need to participate in that kind of practice again.

All I'll say in response is this; it seems that the basic problem here is your concept of "plagiarism" and how it differs from mine...and many of the extremely intelligent and well respected music scholars I've studied with.

That's not to imply you're not intelligent or respected...it just means we have to agree to disagree, because I'm not going to get into a debate of "style" versus "plagiarism" with you. All I'll say about THAT topic is this; "plagiarism" doesn't only include "borrowing" or "referencing" melodies or "content", as you seem to imply. Plagiarism can be done with every single concept, construct, idea, motif, and structure within music. That means melodies, harmonies, orchestration, "style", rhythm, etc. Just because Williams might "reference" or "borrow" melody or orchestrations from other composers (which are more obvious when heard...even to the untrained ear)...that doesn't make him any worse than someone who "borrows" or "references" another composer's "style" as you seem to imply.

Perhaps Stravinsky was more "original" in your eyes than Bach; by citing that example you truly do show you know your music. But, in my defense, I was using Bach as an example and I did point out that Bach also did "borrow" in his own ways. I just didn't want to have to write another dissertation explaining how or why. I could've gone on and on about how "forward thinking" Bartok or Cage was and why...but, as I said before, I've already written those papers whilst attending music school and have no desire to do so again.

Also, I don't really appreciate you even suggesting that perhaps I'm "okay" with anti-Semitism; sort of out of left-field and waaay out of line, in my opinion. I can only hope and assume that you're not being serious, and you will no doubt defend yourself by saying that is indeed the case, but, regardless, I don't appreciate the fact that you wrote what you did. That's also the perfect example of why I've tried to stay away from contributing to message forums lately.

Bottom line; I'm not going to argue with you. You've obviously made up your mind on this topic and nothing's going to change it...no matter how many examples I provide...or how many opinions from well-respected musician that I quote. You see things one way, I (and many others) see them another. The end.

And with that, good night.

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Well, I just finished listening and overall I think it's pretty great. There are some slower moments, but there are a lot of amazing, "Williams magic" parts that I wasn't expecting. The newly arrang

As I've said before, I think I know what's missing. Charm & grace. Gone is our 20th century Tchaikovsky in Crystal Skull. In the past even when John scored wall-to-wall or even not, he unders

Yes. Imagine Williams re-using Leia's Theme for Return Of The Jedi instead of Luke and Leia.

Also, I don't really appreciate you even suggesting that perhaps I'm "okay" with anti-Semitism; sort of out of left-field and waaay out of line, in my opinion. I can only hope and assume that you're not being serious, and you will no doubt defend yourself by saying that is indeed the case, but, regardless, I don't appreciate the fact that you wrote what you did.

I never suggested you are "okay" with anti-Semitism. You justify plagiarism thusly: "The great composers plagiarize. Therefore, John Williams should be allowed to plagiarize." Such a logical statement can be generalized to this: "If a great composer does something, other composers can do it too." I adjusted your argument to "prove" anti-Semitism is okay, thereby invalidating the argument since you and I both agree that anti-Semitism is bad. Plagiarism is not even really a musical issue; it's a matter of honesty. Rachmaninoff technically lifted from Paganini for a famous, wonderful piece of his, but here's the difference in his case: He called the piece "Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini." Just because a piece is predicated on something originally written by someone else doesn't mean such a piece doesn't have value (as many a piece in theme-and-variations form will attest); just give credit where credit is due.

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No two action cues sound alike, no two suspense cues sound alike, etc.

I think the lack of 'flavor' is probably because JW doesnt seem to do those one-off self contained melodies anymore. Nowadays its like all textural and rhythmic stuff with punctuations of a theme or two. His themes also lack the simplicity and catchiness of old, like Mutt's theme may be a dizzying scherzo with a pretty pleasant melody, but its nowhere near as simple and catchy as Short Round's theme. Not necessarily bad, as it does work in such films like The Lost World, HP and even the prequels (which somehow still manage to sound SW-ish) but definitely less accessible. For Indy however....I'm not too sure. I'm still rather underwhelmed with the OST as it is, having listened to it once. I will give it the benefit of the doubt until I watch the film. However I can say this, there is no cue on it which I enjoy more than my favorite Speed Racer tracks....

As for the Raiders March rerecording, I can see the logic behind it. Since the older OSTs are not exactly easily available, it makes sense to include it on this one in case people run out to buy it after watching the film.

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Well I mean, even The Lost World manages to maintain definition.

Just going by action, which has the greatest tendency to blur in KoCS....in TLW, The Hunt, Rescuing Sarah, Ludlow's Demise, Visitor in San Diego, maintain their own unique identities.

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To quote myself:

The problem, if you can call it that, is that his themes don't have the "inevitability" they used to have.

As for the Raiders March re-recording ... aren't there enough of those out there? You can't buy a "Best Of Film Scores" without it.

It's a missed opportunity, but it doesn't necessarily hurt the album experience.

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My problem with the new credits coda in "Finale" (note: music theory ahoy) is that it starts out well, then spoils itself. For the first statement of the Raiders March Williams gives the melody to the trombones and gives the trumpets a wonderful counterpoint line. I really like it! Then there's a weird chromatic modulation from Eb to F. It takes some getting used to, but I like it. But then Williams changes the trombone line in the Raiders March to include an awkwardly dissonant augmented 4th (listen to 8:36-8:37). I don't like it. And then at 9:06, rather than letting the March finish gloriously as it should, Williams adds a very 2000s sounding extension that just ruins it. Since the bootleg cuts off the end of the track, I'm being a little unfair, but the rest of the ending seems pretty evident.

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Well I mean, even The Lost World manages to maintain definition.

My point is I guess there are about only so many ways you can manage to do atonal stuff without sounding same-y to the average dude's ear.

Has JW lost the ability to write knockout melodies? I don't think so. I just think he gets his kicks writing differently now.

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To quote myself:
The problem, if you can call it that, is that his themes don't have the "inevitability" they used to have.

As for the Raiders March re-recording ... aren't there enough of those out there? You can't buy a "Best Of Film Scores" without it.

It's a missed opportunity, but it doesn't necessarily hurt the album experience.

I think the themes sound wonderfully inevitable, and very fresh.

Depending on how the film fares, in cinemas and afterwards, I can easily see "Irina's Teme", "The Adventures of Mutt" and most prominently, "The Call of the Crystal" becoming as iconic as anything else from the other Indy scores.

It is never easy to say what themes and motifs will linger in the public conscience right away, but I have a feeling that these themes, and some of the Potter themes, are the Williams themes of the 00s that will truly stick.

Give it at least five years.

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I like Adventures of Mutt, but its incredibly frenzied and lacks a simple hummable tune. Therefore, I doubt it will linger in public consciousness as those that do usually have a singalong quality to them. I wouldnt even say the subthemes for the Indy scores have actually truly stuck the way the march has, or the way the Star Wars and Superman main titles have, or the way The Imperial March and E.T. have.

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I never suggested you are "okay" with anti-Semitism. You justify plagiarism thusly: "The great composers plagiarize. Therefore, John Williams should be allowed to plagiarize." Such a logical statement can be generalized to this: "If a great composer does something, other composers can do it too." I adjusted your argument to "prove" anti-Semitism is okay, thereby invalidating the argument since you and I both agree that anti-Semitism is bad. Plagiarism is not even really a musical issue; it's a matter of honesty. Rachmaninoff technically lifted from Paganini for a famous, wonderful piece of his, but here's the difference in his case: He called the piece "Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini." Just because a piece is predicated on something originally written by someone else doesn't mean such a piece doesn't have value (as many a piece in theme-and-variations form will attest); just give credit where credit is due.

Perhaps you're twisting my words around slightly or misinterpreting them just as I "misinterpreted" your anti-Semitism remark...

I wasn't attempting to "justify" "plagiarism" per se...I was trying to say that nearly ALL great composers have plagiarized in one way or another, like it or not. It sounds like you, like many classical elitists and "snobs" I've encountered, are singling out Williams for doing something that nearly all composers do. Why people feel the need to single out Williams is beyond me...but, a lot of people do. (Also, bear in mind...I'm not calling you a "snob" or "elitist"...I'm merely saying that those I've encountered in the past who also take the same stance as you have been those kinds of people...like it or not).

I don't find "plagiarism" in music to necessarily be the worst thing in the world because, as I said quite clearly several times (although you don't seem to be able to comprehend what I've written, for some reason)...I don't view it as plagiarism. I view it as a tribute, a reference, or a single highlight that is "borrowed" and interpreted in a new way. And, as I said...if you were to view Williams in this light...you would also have to "indict" most of the "great" classical composers that I suspect you hold so dearly to your heart.

You say Williams should "give credit where credit is due". What do you expect Williams to do when he does such a thing? Call the work, "The Raiders March; a Hero's Theme That's a Variation on Richard Strauss' 'Don Juan'"? If you asked Williams about how similar certain beginning of themes are to other great classical works, he would probably readily admit he was greatly influenced by said composer rather than deny it until he turned blue. You seem to stand at the ready to accuse him of "plagiarism" and also convict him of not admitting to such an act and also covering up his "sin". Have you personally interviewed him to have such intimate knowledge of his soul and inner thoughts?

Again, I don't wish to continue having to say the same things over and over again. You have your way of viewing things...I have my way of viewing mine. I just wish you would accept that and walk away as I asked you to earlier. But, alas...it doesn't seem you're capable of doing so. Therefore, I'll stand by my beliefs and convictions...and leave this argument behind.

And I'll take satisfaction in the knowledge that many great, revered musicians I've encountered in my lifetime would scoff, laugh, and chuckle at your accusation and say exactly what my father said; "That argument is so ridiculous...if you're going to call Williams a plagiarist...be prepared to do say the same thing about Brahms, Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, etc."

Good. Night.

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I never suggested you are "okay" with anti-Semitism. You justify plagiarism thusly: "The great composers plagiarize. Therefore, John Williams should be allowed to plagiarize." Such a logical statement can be generalized to this: "If a great composer does something, other composers can do it too." I adjusted your argument to "prove" anti-Semitism is okay, thereby invalidating the argument since you and I both agree that anti-Semitism is bad. Plagiarism is not even really a musical issue; it's a matter of honesty. Rachmaninoff technically lifted from Paganini for a famous, wonderful piece of his, but here's the difference in his case: He called the piece "Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini." Just because a piece is predicated on something originally written by someone else doesn't mean such a piece doesn't have value (as many a piece in theme-and-variations form will attest); just give credit where credit is due.

Perhaps you're twisting my words around slightly or misinterpreting them just as I "misinterpreted" your anti-Semitism remark...

I wasn't attempting to "justify" "plagiarism" per se...I was trying to say that nearly ALL great composers have plagiarized in one way or another, like it or not. It sounds like you, like many classical elitists and "snobs" I've encountered, are singling out Williams for doing something that nearly all composers do. Why people feel the need to single out Williams is beyond me...but, a lot of people do. (Also, bear in mind...I'm not calling you a "snob" or "elitist"...I'm merely saying that those I've encountered in the past who also take the same stance as you have been those kinds of people...like it or not).

I don't find "plagiarism" in music to necessarily be the worst thing in the world because, as I said quite clearly several times (although you don't seem to be able to comprehend what I've written, for some reason)...I don't view it as plagiarism. I view it as a tribute, a reference, or a single highlight that is "borrowed" and interpreted in a new way. And, as I said...if you were to view Williams in this light...you would also have to "indict" most of the "great" classical composers that I suspect you hold so dearly to your heart.

You say Williams should "give credit where credit is due". What do you expect Williams to do when he does such a thing? Call the work, "The Raiders March; a Hero's Theme That's a Variation on Richard Strauss' 'Don Juan'"? If you asked Williams about how similar certain beginning of themes are to other great classical works, he would probably readily admit he was greatly influenced by said composer rather than deny it until he turned blue. You seem to stand at the ready to accuse him of "plagiarism" and also convict him of not admitting to such an act and also covering up his "sin". Have you personally interviewed him to have such intimate knowledge of his soul and inner thoughts?

Again, I don't wish to continue having to say the same things over and over again. You have your way of viewing things...I have my way of viewing mine. I just wish you would accept that and walk away as I asked you to earlier. But, alas...it doesn't seem you're capable of doing so. Therefore, I'll stand by my beliefs and convictions...and leave this argument behind.

And I'll take satisfaction in the knowledge that many great, revered musicians I've encountered in my lifetime would scoff, laugh, and chuckle at your accusation and say exactly what my father said; "That argument is so ridiculous...if you're going to call Williams a plagiarist...be prepared to do say the same thing about Brahms, Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, etc."

Good. Night.

All right!

Making a living as a composer myself, and having received all the training to make me a snobbish representative of the "elite" (not to mention having written about 200 works, including a symphony, two operas, performances at prestigious venues such as Carnegie Hall, Kennedy Center, etc.-- All of which means and proves absolutely NOTHING!! ;) ), let me really, really , really STRESS this:

There's a difference between plagiarism, thematic borrowing, and stylistic trademarks (so often misrepresented as self-plagiarism).

A highly gifted expert composer such as Williams would have a really hard time plagiarizing, simply because it is such a boring, pointless and difficult thing to do if you actually have technique and talent.

To rely on your own clichés, to have a fully formed language from which to draw ideas, and to have a great set of references, and an understanding of your own musical lineage, -these are all mere matters of a mature composer's work-a-day life.

Now we, as composers, especially if we write music that has a built-in memory like tonal music does, share, to a greater or lesser extent, a language that has taken centuries (at least!) to build, meaning subsequently a language we all somehow know and relate to, very much like, say, English.

Now, writers very rarely make up words, and even if they do, it' usually a matter of recombining different words to generate a fresh and more precise articulation of an idea.

To say that all great composers plagiarize is both true, and a misunderstanding of the very notion of "plagiarism".

To consciously plagiarize, --which is not the same as intentionally quoting, which is often done for meta-musical reasons (a rather T.S. Eliot-esque approach, but one that has existed in music seemingly throughout the history of the Western classical tradition), --- is to act on behalf of a lacking urge and drive, it is the artistic equivalent of impotence, a case of weak creative faculties, -a malady a great composer generally wouldn't suffer from.

But! (Yes, there is a but!): If we, as composers, stumble upon an idea that has been somewhat articulated by another colleague, we should be free to further articulate such an idea if we know we can hit the nail more squarely on the head, if we can be more "truthful" and precise.

John Williams is the musical analogue to the great mythologist Joseph Campbell, or the mythologist and poet Robert Graves. His is a talent that taps into very, very deep veins of our musical culture, and he seems to have the power to express musical ideas with greater accuracy, clarity and poignancy than most composers, even the very greatest ones. This, to me, is Williams's most striking quality. Add to that a style that encompasses a vast field of influences and references, and most superficial listeners are bound to hear in his work first and foremost what "it reminds them of".

I think it was the poet Verlaine who said that "All great art is the pastiche of that which doesn't exist". Another way of putting it, is saying that all great art somehow feels familiar and inevitable.

For artists from the middle ages up until ca. the mid 19th Century, "originality" was simply not a very interesting concept. Since all the artistic fields were craft-based, and since artists were manufacturers of commodities, so to speak, what mattered was how well you did your job, and you learned that job, that craft, by copying, so as to gain technical insights into the universe you were to enter.

Bach was of this mindframe, as was Haydn, as was Mozart. And it is perhaps pertinent to mention this, considering Williams doesn't think of himself as "an artist", but as simply a writer of music ( I have personally heard him say this).

This is of course excessively modest of him. But it goes to show a very different, and very important approach and attitude, and a humility, and, I think, a depth of perception.

Nothing is new under the sun. Except each and every one of us, of course, and we use the same tools, the same tongues, to express ourselves and our relation to the world, and this is where true originality does enter: In our idiosyncracies, in the manners and ways we cannot control, the aspects of art that go beyond our own calculation.

For all his skill, I believe that the true "Williams" quality, the energy or sonoric opulence, or dramatic sincerity, or lyricism, or whatnot, is the one unconscious aspect of his work, the one thing to make him him.

To sum it up very categorically: Williams isn't a plagiarizer. Nor was Bach. Nor Mozart. Nor most composers.

But sometimes we come up with similar material to that of our colleagues, and sometimes we see possibilities in their material that hadn't been explored or exploited. But as long as we live by our creative imperative, plagiarism isn't likely something we enter into.

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To sum it up very categorically: Williams isn't a plagiarizer. Nor was Bach. Nor Mozart. Nor most composers.

But sometimes we come up with similar material to that of our colleagues, and sometimes we see possibilities in their material that hadn't been explored or exploited. But as long as we live by our creative imperative, plagiarism isn't likely something we enter into.

Yes. Yes, I agree. Great post. ;)

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For all Aussies who want the CD, the street date has been broken and basically any JB Hifi store has it now!! =D Just make sure you ring in advance and plead with the sales guys =P

Can't wait to listen to this baby!

BTW, some of you REALLY need to lighten up. What do 'The Wrong Chalice', 'Welcome to Pankot Palace', 'Dunn and Duffy Circus Train', 'The Portuguese Coast', 'Water!', 'The Bridge and Finale', 'Government Agents', 'Underground Chaos', 'Stealing the Stones', 'To Castle Brunwald', and 'The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword' all have in common? They're probably among the best music JW wrote for these films, and none of them were on the OST. From the looks of the recycled material, there's an easy 30-40 minutes of unreleased music already, and I doubt it's all atonal junk.

At least see the music in context with the film before passing judgment. I'd hate to think what would've happened if Saving Private Ryan leaked online before the film was released.

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To those complaining about the repeat recording of the Indy March, I suspect that is aimed for those that never bought the previous soundtracks. These sort of "big" releases tend to be more geared to those that watched the movie and though shucks I want the music than us fans of John Williams who generally already have everything there is to have, plus those we aren'T supposed to have. (That said, I don't think there is anything in the CD score that will really drive sales in the way that Jurrasic Park, ET, Star WArs, Superman or Raiders did)

I've only managed a passing listen so far to the score with two kids running around its hard to get a good listen. I love Adventures of Mutt, Snake Pitt (though reminds me of HP scores) & the new variant of Raiders March at the end of the Finale. Its difficult listening to track 1 now that I have heard that brief new version in the Finale, my head keeps plugging the new version in.

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Making a living as a composer myself, and having received all the training to make me a snobbish representative of the "elite"...

To say that all great composers plagiarize is both true, and a misunderstanding of the very notion of "plagiarism"...

To sum it up very categorically: Williams isn't a plagiarizer. Nor was Bach. Nor Mozart. Nor most composers.

Marcus...what an excellent, articulate, verbose post! You managed to explain notions in a way I couldn't even fathom; everything you wrote I found to be true, clear, and concise.

Also, I hope you don't think I was "knocking" classically trained musicians...especially because I happen to be one of them (I mentioned in an earlier post the degrees I received from Juilliard and the Indiana University School of Music). I only used the terms "snob" and "elitist" because that was the mindset the people I encountered had during my days at Juilliard and IU. It was the way they perceived themselves and others that made them seem like "snobs" and "elitists"; they had the same education as I did, they knew the same information I did...yet, they thought of themselves as being "better" than me because they would rather listen to Penderecki or Stravinsky than John Williams...whereas I was the exact opposite. I mean, I'm talking about people who couldn't even IMAGINE themselves listening to John Williams and would never "lower themselves" to that sort of degrading standard. It was their attitude that made them snobs in my eyes. So, please don't think I'm generalizing and asserting that anyone with a music education is what I consider to be a snob.

Also, in my defense...I never really meant to truly claim that all great composers ACTUALLY plagiarize. That's why whenever I presented that idea, I tried to put the words in quotes...because I don't really see it that way. Yes, I realize that in my last post I actually wrote that "nearly ALL great composers have plagiarized in one way or another, like it or not"; but, I also went on to say that I didn't really see it as "plagiarism" per se. The reason I referred to the acts in question as plagiarism in that sentence was because I was framing the allegation in the "words" of the person I was responding to; I was trying to frame it in their viewpoint. But, on the contrary, I see it in the light that you so clearly explained...and that was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I did a poor job of doing so...but, it definitely seems that you and I see things in the same way and I was trying to convey the same points you so excellently wrote about. I loved your metaphor of writers using the same language but never making up new words...man, I don't think I could ever come up with something as clear and accessible to everyone I'm trying to communicate to.

Finally, let the record show that I never once directly called Williams a "plagiarist"...because I simply don't believe that he, or other great composers, are.

But, I have you to thank for making my thoughts clear...whether intentional or not! Kudos and cheers!

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Oh my god... this score is getting an absolute thrashing (for Williams' standards) on the FSM boards.

Wow, the disappointment is palpable.

Indeed.

Fortunately, in Williams' defense, those people seem to have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, and clearly have no familiarity AT ALL with this score yet to be making such silly comments.

Even in 'The Jungle Chase', where a number of themes get their most rousing renditions, it seems that Williams is trying to cram as many notes into each measure, each line, each phrase as possible. Sometimes less is more, and John Williams seems to have forgotten that.

Not only is this one of Williams' trademarks (love it or hate it), I would hardly call this cue as remotely note-packed as any action cue from TOD.

Well, it's rather poor score but still not as unbrearable or annoying as his Harry Potter trilogy.

Clearly your everyday Williams fan...?

The prequel scores were robust with new, interesting ideas. Thats the problem with this Indiana Jones score, it seems - it doesn't have anything to add to the already established lexicon.

I don't know where to begin with this one.

2. I was surprised to hear some of the ark music during the "Call of the Crystal"

??? "...some of the ark music"?? Right. Try a "clever variation of that theme" as if to indicate a relationship between evil/holy/alien objects of desire.

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3. The military motif from "Raiders" (when Indy is going to the Map Room) is also re-iterated in "The Spell of the Skull."

Ah-ha! Thank you! I was trying to place that musical quote and it was driving me mad!

LOL. ;) Yeah. Tough one.

4. The Raiders March is in the score; used a few more times than in Last Crusade, maybe, but still surprised it wasn't used more often.
What intrigues me most about KOTCS is that Williams seems to have turned back to his old, established themes. This is the complete opposite to his approach on LC when he barely used the Indy Theme at all, claiming that is was so familiar that he wanted to try something new. I guess Spielberg/Lucas REALLY [i.e., Williams] wanted the music to shout "Indiana Jones" at every opportunity.

So which is it, overuse or underuse of Raiders? ........

I was surprised by how often the four-note Indy motif (E-F-G-C) appears, compared to how much it didn't appear in "Last Crusade." I kind of like it, actually.
If I do have one complaint it is in the quoting of the Indy theme, which feels too forced and not as fluent as the previous scores. Compare it to Goldsmith quoting the star trek theme in Nemesis and there that theme does not feel so out of place.

........ who knows. Feels too forced? What, you expect him to accidentally quote the Indy motif in an Indy score?

I was surprised by how anglophile "The Adventures of Mutt" is - it sounds very much like Elgar or Holst. "Irina's Theme" is good, a creative counterpoint to Marion with a simmering, almost sultry muted trumpet.

1) Considering Mutt is a Yale student -- and much of the film thus takes place in New England, no less -- I'm not surprised his thematic material has an energetic upper-crust exhuberance one might otherwise consider... "anglophile".

2) Muted trumpet? Try upper-register tenor saxophone doubled with muted French horn. Nice try, though. And it is performed on other instruments too. Try listening to the score for such examples.

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John Williams is the musical analogue to the great mythologist Joseph Campbell, or the mythologist and poet Robert Graves. His is a talent that taps into very, very deep veins of our musical culture, and he seems to have the power to express musical ideas with greater accuracy, clarity and poignancy than most composers, even the very greatest ones. This, to me, is Williams's most striking quality. Add to that a style that encompasses a vast field of influences and references, and most superficial listeners are bound to hear in his work first and foremost what "it reminds them of".

Very well said, Marcus. I agree with my whole heart.

I deeply enjoy Williams' music because I always find the work of a true artist in there. He's a real composer, a true musician and that's what many people even here seem to not understand. I'm sure this quality is also very much present in the new Indy score, which I still have to listen (because I like to listen to real CDs on my stereo system, call me nostalgic ;))

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I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. This score is nothing short of a masterpiece.

I wish I had Marcus music training so I could articulate what I think of this score, but this isn't even have to do with my emotional attachement to Williams music. I find this score much more cerebral than the previous Indy scores, yet, it also is aparent to me, that this is Williams having great fun with his toy, the orchestra.

This is mature Indy music, and this is probably one of Williams scores for film that comes closer to his own personal "concert hall" music.

I really don't understand why so many complain... I'm sad to see that there are fewer and fewer reasons for me to hang out in this place ;)

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I still have to listen to the score, so I'm waiting to expres my opinions, but from what I'm reading here, the general fan reaction seems very much to remember what happened with The Phantom Menace. And it makes me smile, because I was very much seeing this coming.

It's somewhat sad that every time there are people who insistently hope to hear a new Williams score "like the old ones he used to do". These people will always be dissatisfied or annoyed and there's nothing you can do. They want to hear again and again the same kind of music (excuse the pun). The fact is that real artists evolve and always go forward. This is something that could annoy us, but that's the reality. People who were hoping that Williams would return to his so-called "80's style" (whatever that means) probably don't know that artists don't think exactly like we normal people. This doesn't mean that we should not criticize Williams or that we don't have the right to dislike his scores. It's always a matter of taste, of course, but we should probably ask better to ourselves what we really like and why we like more of one thing and less of another.

Also, this kind of reaction has more to do with the nostalgia of the past than anything else. It's a very common and human thing, we always want to relive the magic of our childhood as much as possible and we want to be excited like when we were kids. And when our expectations don't meet with the reality of the situation, we feel betrayed. Indiana Jones is something probably very much tied with the childhood of many people here (myself included) and this is what's happening. I'm already seeing the sharp knives and the huge backlash of many people about the film itself...

What I really don't understand and probably never will, is the people who constantly say that Williams "lost it" or "isn't capable any more to write great music" or, even worse, that "write too many notes" (!!!), as if the majority of those people are all great composers. It's our right to criticize something, but I think we need stronger arguments than those. Otherwise these remarks will always sound as fanboy whining at best.

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It may as well end up as the most hated score of the year. ;)

Who would have thought that? Frankly, I don't know what to say. Would JNH do better? Because he gets more praise than JW these days. At least it seems to be that way...

Haven't heard the whole thing yet, but, so far, it sounds great! No need to complain at all.

Karol

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I still have to listen to the score, so I'm waiting to expres my opinions, but from what I'm reading here, the general fan reaction seems very much to remember what happened with The Phantom Menace. And it makes me smile, because I was very much seeing this coming.

It's somewhat sad that every time there are people who insistently hope to hear a new Williams score "like the old ones he used to do". These people will always be dissatisfied or annoyed and there's nothing you can do. They want to hear again and again the same kind of music (excuse the pun). The fact is that real artists evolve and always go forward. This is something that could annoy us, but that's the reality. People who were hoping that Williams would return to his so-called "80's style" (whatever that means) probably don't know that artists don't think exactly like we normal people. This doesn't mean that we should not criticize Williams or that we don't have the right to dislike his scores. It's always a matter of taste, of course, but we should probably ask better to ourselves what we really like and why we like more of one thing and less of another.

Also, this kind of reaction has more to do with the nostalgia of the past than anything else. It's a very common and human thing, we always want to relive the magic of our childhood as much as possible and we want to be excited like when we were kids. And when our expectations don't meet with the reality of the situation, we feel betrayed. Indiana Jones is something probably very much tied with the childhood of many people here (myself included) and this is what's happening. I'm already seeing the sharp knives and the huge backlash of many people about the film itself...

What I really don't understand and probably never will, is the people who constantly say that Williams "lost it" or "isn't capable any more to write great music" or, even worse, that "write too many notes" (!!!), as if the majority of those people are all great composers. It's our right to criticize something, but I think we need stronger arguments than those. Otherwise these remarks will always sound as fanboy whining at best.

Very well put.

As an artist myself, even if not a musician, I can relate with Williams. I try to search for new arenas to express myself.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, who tries to get chained in a long forgoten past, is an idiot. And surely knows nothing about art.

Ever wondered why Williams forgets about his older works? Because the same thing happens to me...

Just yesterday, I was showing a 10 year old drawing to some friends, and they asked me a few specifics on that one had came to fruition, and I just didn't remembered anymore... I had it done, I was, and am, proud of it, but i moved on to new things.

My recomendation, if you don't like the new Williams, don't listen to it... Go listen to all that Hollywood crap all you want, but don't complain for not understanding his more mature musical persona.

And very honestly, I find it both in bad taste and profound lack of respect, that people whitout any musical knowledge what so ever, say the things they say, regarding the work of a man who has more musical knowledge on one of his toes, than everyone here together.

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And the really funny thing is how both ends of the spectrum get their inevitable workout: it sucks badly, really vs. 'i'm sad for you because you can't see the gift god has given you this may'...

Remote Control's PR agent versus Williams' PR Agent, i suppose.

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I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. This score is nothing short of a masterpiece.

I wish I had Marcus music training so I could articulate what I think of this score, but this isn't even have to do with my emotional attachement to Williams music. I find this score much more cerebral than the previous Indy scores, yet, it also is aparent to me, that this is Williams having great fun with his toy, the orchestra.

This is mature Indy music, and this is probably one of Williams scores for film that comes closer to his own personal "concert hall" music.

I really don't understand why so many complain... I'm sad to see that there are fewer and fewer reasons for me to hang out in this place ;)

Amen!

Now let me give you my impression after having listened to the score 3 times and having read this thread . . .

I don't understand the folks who complain so much. It's like they want Williams to reinvent himself with each new score, to write something so powerful and mind-blowing and original . . . it's akin to finding the lost ark! In other words, impossible. Of course, I understand that expectations are very high, but they can be too high at times, in my opinion. Well, we love John Williams because he writes music in a certain style. It's a very diverse style, but he has his own style nonetheless. Now, if he writes in "his" style, some people find it necessary to complain because its not being original. And yet, if he'd written KotCS in a completely new way, I'm 100% sure people would have complained because it's not in the same vein as the other 3 Indy scores. Some people will bitch no matter what, just because they can. I'm convinced of that.

Now, I have to say that, after 3 listens, I'm VERY impressed with KotCS. This is one of his best efforts, no doubt. I don't know for sure how it will stand beside the 3 other "classics" (I think no one knows, not even JW himself), but I have a very good feeling. This score is certainly better than the Star Wars prequel scores (which were pretty good too, IMHO). This is, like somebody said, a more mature Williams having great fun and trying to recapture his "youth," so to speak. And he does an amazing job at it, too. Just listen to Mutt's fun, bouncy theme very closely, a dozen times, trying to follow each new melody line, and then to Irina's broody, romantically bittersweet Russian-flavored theme . . . and you'll see that they brilliantly capture the characters. You don't even have to see the movie, you just "get it." Also, some people seem to forget that Williams is NOT writing what he thinks is best musically, but what he thinks is best for the movie. So, for instance, when "The Jungle Chase" seems to lack a certain kind of flow . . . that's probably due to the fact that the movie was edited in a certain way. Blame Michael Kahn; or good old Georgie (choppy seems be to his middle name, anyway). John Williams as a "mere" film composer has to respect the decisions made by them and compose music around the edited scenes.

I think action cues like "Ants" and "Grave Robbers" show that Williams is still very much at the top of his game. These cues need to be listened many, many times before they can be truly appreciated, and of course many times in the movie as well. But musically, he does stunningly complex never-before-done things, utilizing instruments and percussions he's never used before! Sure, certain influences from previous movies can be heard (like Jurassic Park, Minority Report, and even Memoirs), but is that such a bad thing? We love those scores, after all. And Williams is giving us more of his ideas, fleshing them out, and he's giving us plenty of new stuff at every turn, as well. The melodies are never the same, never become run-of-the-mill. People who are slightly reminded of an earlier score to a Spielberg movie or a Star Wars episode after having listened to a KotCS track once or twice need to shut up! There's a limit to how superficial you can be. These are film scores written by the same composer for the same director(s), so it stands to reason that the style will be somewhat similar, in some respects. But similar style doesn't equal plagiarism and similar style doesn't always equal bad!

After listening to the score, I'm now more curious than ever about the movie. If the movie is even half as good as the score, this will be huge, SPECTACULAR. And an Oscar nomination is as good as in JW's pocket . . . and that's definitely not too early to tell. If I sound too gushing I make no apologies; it's a brandnew John Williams score for an Indiana Jones adventure, after all.

;)

P.S. Just enjoy the score for a few days, and don't complain too much!

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I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. This score is nothing short of a masterpiece.

I wish I had Marcus music training so I could articulate what I think of this score, but this isn't even have to do with my emotional attachement to Williams music. I find this score much more cerebral than the previous Indy scores, yet, it also is aparent to me, that this is Williams having great fun with his toy, the orchestra.

This is mature Indy music, and this is probably one of Williams scores for film that comes closer to his own personal "concert hall" music.

I really don't understand why so many complain... I'm sad to see that there are fewer and fewer reasons for me to hang out in this place :lol:

The truth is, when listening to this score, I was pretty much certain who would love it and who would be dissapointed.

This is a stellar effort by JW, this shows a composer on the very top of his craft, with an array of resources no other composer in Hollywood can clame.

The new themes are all fantastic, and with fantastic secondary melodies and B sections which Williams intervows masterfully throughout the score.

Two thumbs way up

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Quite frankly, if this is a score that can be called "crap" and "awful", then you need to open your ears and listen to 99% of the absolute generic garbage being tossed around under the name "film music" nowadays. It's a effing miracle John Williams is still around to deliver such music.. hell, merely using a real orchestra is getting rarer these days. There's such an elitist, arrogant attitude to some of the posters in this thread, it really sickens me. What kind of fans are some of you? You haven't even seen the bloody film the music is written for, and you're able to judge it?!

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Quite frankly, if this is a score that can be called "crap" and "awful", then you need to open your ears and listen to 99% of the absolute generic garbage being tossed around under the name "film music" nowadays.

More like 99,99%.

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I will too share some thoughts and my opinion on the score with you.

In fact i'm absolutely positively suprised and for me this new Indy score is another masterpiece by our Johnny Williams. He surpasses many of his 2000`s scores. It's hard to compare between the Indiana Jones scores so far, as they are all great in their own way. But JW also managed to create a new style for this soundtrack and it should be greatly appreciated. It certainly works better that way than just going straight into his 80s style. Don't forget that every Indy film differs in tone, style, places and characters and JW hast to capture that in his soundtrack.

Usually the soundtrack gets it full life after having seen the movie but even now after the first listenings i absolutely enjoy approximately 80% of it. Only some mysterious tracks like "return" don't do it for me.

My favourite new theme is MUTT'S THEME which catches a lot of LC flair and i'm sure it suits the character perfectly. I'm glad about the mexican/peruan music which keeps the tradition of every Indy film to hear some source music out of the countries that are visited. That also helps to create a unique flair in each soundtrack.

I have to admit that Jungle chase lacks a bit of focus but gets truly overwhelming in its second half. Other parts i freaked out over are "The Spell of the skull" 3:10 till end, "The Depature" 1:16 till end, the new Marion arrangement in the finale and the end of the finale, the quotation of Gaudeamus Igitur in "A whirl through academy" and the whole "Temple ruins and the secret revealed"

Now all i have to say is let's enjoy the movie and hope for good unreleased cues

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I have to admit that Jungle chase lacks a bit of focus but gets truly overwhelming in its second half.

I love everything about The Jungle Chase! I LOVE the first minute or so and the way it starts . . . almost like a Russisan military fanfare! Mutt's Theme in between can be a little distracting, but that's okay. We'll have to see how it works in the movie.

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I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. This score is nothing short of a masterpiece.

I wish I had Marcus music training so I could articulate what I think of this score, but this isn't even have to do with my emotional attachement to Williams music. I find this score much more cerebral than the previous Indy scores, yet, it also is aparent to me, that this is Williams having great fun with his toy, the orchestra.

This is mature Indy music, and this is probably one of Williams scores for film that comes closer to his own personal "concert hall" music.

I really don't understand why so many complain... I'm sad to see that there are fewer and fewer reasons for me to hang out in this place ;)

The truth is, when listening to this score, I was pretty much certain who would love it and who would be dissapointed.

This is a stellar effort by JW, this shows a composer on the very top of his craft, with an array of resources no other composer in Hollywood can clame.

The new themes are all fantastic, and with fantastic secondary melodies and B sections which Williams intervows masterfully throughout the score.

Two thumbs way up

We're going to need bigger thumbs :lol:

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I'd say there's probably 3-4 minutes of unreleased jungle chase, sadly. Look at the hackjob that was Belly of the Steel Beast, and the second best part of music composed for that chase was chopped out of the OST. :lol:

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Well, I'm not counting on a win anymore (not after PoA and Memoirs both lost!), but seeing Williams at the Academy is always nice... his disappointment notwithstanding. But everybody who has functioning ears knows that he is the best composer.

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I'd say there's probably 3-4 minutes of unreleased jungle chase, sadly. Look at the hackjob that was Belly of the Steel Beast, and the second best part of music composed for that chase was chopped out of the OST. :lol:

Well that second part of the Tank Chase on TLC was composed so late in the game it had no chance to make it on the album in any case.

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