8:21 of "Finale"

[indy4 155]

I know this got some criticism, but I'd just like to say that I am glad JW was expiramenting on the Raiders March. I find the new version enjoyable, though not as good as the original. I sort of view it as Zimmer's "Mission Impossible Theme." Definetly not as good as the original, but because we have a billion versions of the original, it is nice to have the variety and opportunity to listen to something different. And I thought it sounded pretty cool.

[King Mark 3,631]

I love it,but it's too little too late in the track .Imagine if Williams had retooled the entire Raiders March,how awesome would that have been?

[indy4 155]

I think that for purposes of a listening experiance, it would have been awesome. But because The Raiders March begins at the end of the actual film, the traditional version is really what was needed, what would fit the film, and what would be nostalgic and enhance the film.

But if you mean a re-tooled concert version, like a bonus track, that would be indeed be awesome!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I love it when the new variation kicks in. The fourth film needed something different.

[Delorean90 42]

I think it provides a perfect combination of the familiar and the new. It works tremendously.

[Adam S. 0]

I need to examine the score more but here is a first guess at what JW might have been going for in this part of the finale. There's a version of Indy's theme where the 4th note goes down an octave instead of up like usual. And it seems like it was used when Mutt was swinging on vines and maybe elsewhere. Assuming that is to be loosely associated with Mutt than having that same variation appear as the counterpoint with the trumpet at the 8:21 version on the theme could be away of working in the theme in a way that signifies Indy and Mutt together. Or maybe not but its notable that this is the only time in the series that I can think of when we get that variation and it shows up several times in the new movie. Just a thought. But I really like that version whatever the case.

- Adam

[Delorean90 42]

I made the connection to the swinging scene also. I think I like it better in the finale, though.

[Vaderbait1 1]

I think it's funny, all the people complaining about the overuse of the Raiders march also complain about the variation.

I, for one, love the variation and wish it were used to alleviate some of the overuse of the Raiders theme.

But those few seconds are tantalizing!

[Incanus 5,714]

I need to examine the score more but here is a first guess at what JW might have been going for in this part of the finale. There's a version of Indy's theme where the 4th note goes down an octave instead of up like usual. And it seems like it was used when Mutt was swinging on vines and maybe elsewhere. Assuming that is to be loosely associated with Mutt than having that same variation appear as the counterpoint with the trumpet at the 8:21 version on the theme could be away of working in the theme in a way that signifies Indy and Mutt together. Or maybe not but its notable that this is the only time in the series that I can think of when we get that variation and it shows up several times in the new movie. Just a thought. But I really like that version whatever the case.

- Adam

I agree. This is Williams combining the countours of both themes and thus uniting Indy and Mutt musically. A brilliant stroke.

And I for one love the new variation.

[Josh500 1,615]

Hey guys, you know what? I was just about to open a thread concerning this variation on Raiders March, but Indy4 got ahead of me!

I just wanna say how much I LOVE this. My heart always leaps when I get to this section, and I found myself listening to it a dozen times yesterday. At first, when I got the album, I was like, "Hmmmm. Interesting." But now I can't seem to get enough of it. It's a very short section, but I think SOMETHING different was necessary for this fourth installment, and it works perfectly. JW hit the nail on the head again!

I agree with Adam that this is supposed to represent Indy and Mutt working together (more or less harmoniously), but I love how it finishes the regular way . . . with just Indy's Theme, like JW is saying, "Yeah, we now have Mutt too, but this is still Indy's show." If you listen closely, that second half, starting at 8:37, has a very slight variation at the beginning as well, with the trombone playing different notes . . . and I thought that was a nice touch as well.

P.S. Does this variation of Raiders March play during the monkey scene??? I didn't notice that . . .

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

the new orchestration has really a Mutt flavour.

And thanks got we have the finale 'that's MY hat sequence' if not, i would be very scared....

I cant believe one person in another forum thought that it was cartoonish and wanted the original version.

Like if we didnt had countless recordings of that already...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

If only the rest of the cd were as innovative as that moment, and the very ending, and the hiccup in Marions theme around 54 seconds(utterly gorgeous moment I must add).

Im anxious to hear how the music plays in the film. Love the Call of the Crystal.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

if the rest of the CD was innovative....it would be a post 2000 'crap' dust collector score in your collection.

[Jacob 0]

I love it. Just about the only moment on the soundtrack that gave me chills when I first heard it.

And that's my biggest beef with the score. It's very good music, but it lacks those great spine-chilling moments such as The Miracle of the Ark, Slave Children's Crusade or The Penitent Man Will Pass.

[Josh500 1,615]

I love it. Just about the only moment on the soundtrack that gave me chills when I first heard it.

And that's my biggest beef with the score. It's very good music, but it lacks those great spine-chilling moments such as The Miracle of the Ark, Slave Children's Crusade or The Penitent Man Will Pass.

Hmmm, I don't agree.

There ARE great musical moments in KotCS. The last minute and a half of The Jungle Chase, Irina's Theme played lushly by strings (as gorgeous as Across the Stars), The Departure which gives me chills every time, the new variation of Raiders March, and the Mexican-Peruvian piece...

[Jacob 0]

There ARE great musical moments in KotCS.

That I don't disagree with. But IMHO they are not as good as the best moments from the first three, such as those three cues I mentioned.

You're not seriously comparing the Mexican-Peruvian source music with The Miracle of the Ark, are you? It's fun music, but, come on. I'm talking about the best of the best here. It's great that you like it so much, I very much like it as well, but for me Crystal Skull just doesn't quite live up to his big brothers.

[Josh500 1,615]

There ARE great musical moments in KotCS.

That I don't disagree with. But IMHO they are not as good as the best moments from the first three, such as those three cues I mentioned.

You're not seriously comparing the Mexican-Peruvian source music with The Miracle of the Ark, are you? It's fun music, but, come on. I'm talking about the best of the best here. It's great that you like it so much, I very much like it as well, but for me Crystal Skull just doesn't quite live up to his big brothers.

Of course I'm not comparing the Mexican music with The Miracle of the Ark, that would be idiotic, but I think there are many similarities between those 2 scores.

Call of the Crystal - Ark Theme

Irina's Theme - Marion's Theme

The Snake Pit or A Whirl Through Academe - The Basket Game

Flight from Peru - Journey to Akator

Desert Chase - Jungle Chase

The Departure - The Miracle of the Ark

RotLA is a classic, naturally KotCS can't compete with that, but that doesn't mean it's not good. In fact, KotCS is a stellar effort. I think this one's just . . . different, more mature. But, in its own way, just as good.

[Adam S. 0]

Question is, where in the film could he have had something along the equivalent of Slave Children's Crusade or Miracle of the Ark? Certainly not for the huge amount of time they are crawling around in caves and such. The Departure perhaps but notice that the scene doesn't show the characters at all which is what the Miracle of the Ark fed off of. In Raiders, the guy says "Its beatiful!" and the music is absolutely beautiful and so forth. The Departure didn't have a shot of the characters at all so the music becomes more like part of the sound design. I think that kind of thing applies for a lot of the movie and its one of the reasons the film is weaker IMO. There aren't as many scnenes that try to thrill us like Slave Children's Crusade or awe us like Miracle of the Ark and so forth.

- Adam

[Josh500 1,615]

Question is, where in the film could he have had something along the equivalent of Slave Children's Crusade or Miracle of the Ark? Certainly not for the huge amount of time they are crawling around in caves and such. The Departure perhaps but notice that the scene doesn't show the characters at all which is what the Miracle of the Ark fed off of. In Raiders, the guy says "Its beatiful!" and the music is absolutely beautiful and so forth. The Departure didn't have a shot of the characters at all so the music becomes more like part of the sound design. I think that kind of thing applies for a lot of the movie and its one of the reasons the film is weaker IMO. There aren't as many scnenes that try to thrill us like Slave Children's Crusade or awe us like Miracle of the Ark and so forth.

- Adam

Hmmm, yeah, I agree with that.

Like I said somewhere else, JW writes what's best for specific scenes, not what we would like to hear on the OS album. So if there aren't SO many great musical cues as in RotLA, maybe it's because there aren't SO many great scenes in KotCS.

But, again, RotLA is a classic. To top that (movie- or score-wise) is an (almost) impossible task.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

this movie shows a little more archeology ('lcrawling arround in caves') than the other movies

and that's a bad thing?

In the departure you can see indy watching it.

[Adam S. 0]

You can see the back of his head if I recall correctly which is different than if the music can feed of the characters' reactions. I'm pointing out the role of having more time in the caves and the fact we get less music that people like. That's true independent of whether one likes these scenes or not. Personally, I thought it made the film drag more in the last hour but that's not my point so much as to point out the way the film limits JW's opportunities.

- Adam

[Jacob 0]

Question is, where in the film could he have had something along the equivalent of Slave Children's Crusade or Miracle of the Ark?

I don't disagree. For whatever reason I'm just not as wowed as with Crystal Skull's score, whether that be John Williams' "maturing" sound or simply that the film didn't have as many opportunities for great musical moments.

Regardless, I just don't enjoy it as much. Don't misunderstand me Josh. I still enjoy it a great deal. Yes, Raiders is a near untouchable classic, but the first two sequels IMO are perhaps just as great but in their own way. Crystal Skull however too often feels like an inferior version of Raiders, lacking as strong an identity of it's own.

[Josh500 1,615]

Regardless, I just don't enjoy it as much. Don't misunderstand me Josh. I still enjoy it a great deal. Yes, Raiders is a near untouchable classic, but the first two sequels IMO are perhaps just as great but in their own way. Crystal Skull however too often feels like an inferior version of Raiders, lacking as strong an identity of it's own.

Hmmm, I understand very well what you're saying, but I'm certain--positive, in fact--that after viewing KotCS just once or twice (and listening to the score maybe a dozen times), you can't say that. We need more time for the movie and the music to sink in. After all, we had 19 years and more to enjoy the previous three works.

In fact, I already think Irina's Theme and The Jungle Chase are some of the best pieces JW has ever written. The Call of the Crystal is very subtle yes, a difficult piece, but in its own way it's almost as captivating and spell-binding and brilliant as the Ark Theme. It's hair-raising. I'm sure A Whirl through Academe will earn its place besides Fast Streets of Shanghai and Escape from Venice or Indy's Very First Adventure. KotCS will most certainly not top RotLA, but I think it might eventually sound to us as good as TLC and ToD.

[Henry B 50]

Yeah, I don't know about the end of "Finale." I love the Raiders March/altered Raiders March (Mutt's theme?) counterpoint, but the rest of it is a little weird. Really hate the trombones' augmented fifth in the final statement of the Raiders March at 8:37 (if you don't know music theory, you can probably still hear the "sour" note). The new ending starts out promisingly, but devolves into a neutered "new Williams" sound within seconds. Like The Patriot, only even less joyful.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

I sort of view it as Zimmer's "Mission Impossible Theme."

I think I'm falling off my chair ...

[indy4 155]

In principle, not in quality.

indy4 - who actually enjoys Zimmer's take on the theme (though obviously not as much as the original)

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Not even in principle.

Zimmer took another person's theme, changed orchestration completely, changed harmony (I think), with an idea of "updating" it, but the wrong way.

Williams took his own theme, merely changed registers, added two short extensions where they make sense, and made a classic theme that could easily have evoked the feeling of "meh" interesting again.

[Ollie 1,059]

I sort of view it as Zimmer's "Mission Impossible Theme."

Since Zimmer's MI II is quite possibly one of the worst scores ever composed I think you have just insulted John Williams greatly.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Plagiarist!

[indy4 155]

Not even in principle.

Zimmer took another person's theme, changed orchestration completely, changed harmony (I think), with an idea of "updating" it, but the wrong way.

Williams took his own theme, merely changed registers, added two short extensions where they make sense, and made a classic theme that could easily have evoked the feeling of "meh" interesting again.

OK, it's not like Zimmer's Mission Impossible Theme.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I first heard it while watching the film and staying for the credits. Shivers all round. I was tremendously impressed by that small variation - it was almost worth the price of my ticket.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

OK, it's not like Zimmer's Mission Impossible Theme.

Thank you!

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

And it seems like it was used when Mutt was swinging on vines and maybe elsewhere. Assuming that is to be loosely associated with Mutt than having that same variation appear as the counterpoint with the trumpet at the 8:21 version on the theme

- Adam

I need to examine the score more but here is a first guess at what JW might have been going for in this part of the finale. There's a version of Indy's theme where the 4th note goes down an octave instead of up like usual. And it seems like it was used when Mutt was swinging on vines and maybe elsewhere. Assuming that is to be loosely associated with Mutt than having that same variation appear as the counterpoint with the trumpet at the 8:21 version on the theme could be away of working in the theme in a way that signifies Indy and Mutt together. Or maybe not but its notable that this is the only time in the series that I can think of when we get that variation and it shows up several times in the new movie. Just a thought. But I really like that version whatever the case.

- Adam

I agree. This is Williams combining the countours of both themes and thus uniting Indy and Mutt musically. A brilliant stroke.

And I for one love the new variation.

I am really surprised I haven't seen more discussion like this here. JW took a huge, risky step in developing a Theme for Mutt -- an alternate version of the Indy theme. That's so huge, and it's great. Am I the only one who thinks it's brilliant? And the end of the Finale?!! Wow! You have Mutt's version of the Indy theme slowly blend into the Indy theme, and wow, I just can't go on. You either get it or you don't I suppose.

[Henry B 50]

Huh? Yeah, I guess it's kind of clever...

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

You need to realise that the "theme" you're talking about isn't new, it's the low brass counterpoint to the last part of the Raiders March as we've known it for 20 years.

Williams only flipped the registers. He may use it for the Tarzan scene to twist the March a bit, but I wouldn't freak out and call it a new theme for Mutt.

[Josh500 1,615]

I am really surprised I haven't seen more discussion like this here. JW took a huge, risky step in developing a Theme for Mutt -- an alternate version of the Indy theme. That's so huge, and it's great. Am I the only one who thinks it's brilliant? And the end of the Finale?!! Wow! You have Mutt's version of the Indy theme slowly blend into the Indy theme, and wow, I just can't go on. You either get it or you don't I suppose.

I wouldn't call it a HUGE, RISKY step (remember he blended Short Round's Theme with Indy's Theme too, also for the End Credits), but it sure is great. I love that section. Now, all we need to clear up is whether that's the "true" Mutt's Theme or just "Mutt swinging on the vines" theme.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Clearly the latter.

[Ollie 1,059]

You need to realise that the "theme" you're talking about isn't new, it's the low brass counterpoint to the last part of the Raiders March as we've known it for 20 years.

Williams only flipped the registers. He may use it for the Tarzan scene to twist the March a bit, but I wouldn't freak out and call it a new theme for Mutt.

It's pretty neat, I know that was one of the first thing I mentioned when the score leaked.

[Henry B 50]

It's not the low brass counterpoint. It's similar, but definitely reworked.

[SpaceOddity 0]

Add me to the list of people that loved this little tweak on the theme. It was pretty much the main thing that stood out for me when I first listened to this score... It's always fun to hear an unexpected twist on something you've heard so many times (The Raiders March), and I instantly sat up in my seat and actually said, "HUH?" out loud. LOL.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

I second that. It was about the only thing that made my heart beat higher, next to hearing the full version of Irina's theme.

[Delorean90 42]

You need to realise that the "theme" you're talking about isn't new, it's the low brass counterpoint to the last part of the Raiders March as we've known it for 20 years.

Williams only flipped the registers. He may use it for the Tarzan scene to twist the March a bit, but I wouldn't freak out and call it a new theme for Mutt.

Actually the low brass counterpoint is almost exactly the Raiders March, and it doesn't have the melodic turns that the new section has.