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First Post: Cut-N-Paste Lucas strikes again?


decembersun

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Hi, my first post here. I was irked enough at the situation with the music of Crystal Skull that I had to post my questions here about the REUSED Williams music, to try to get the straight story.

Without revealing any spoilers, while watching Crystal Skull I noticed that Lucas (not surprisingly) resorted to cutting-n-pasting music from John Williams from other films (this time from "Raiders" and "Crusade". Going into Skull, I sortof expected this to happen: it happened with Clones (what a jaw-dropping crap experience to hear the same music from Phantom resurface again) and then Sith's music reuse wasn't a big surprise. So going to see Skull, I sortof expected Lucas to pull the same crummy tactic, and of course, he didn't let me down.

Again, without spoilers, it sounds as if Lucas lifted the "Flight from Peru" music from Raiders and pasted it in, as well as several of the "Father/Son" themes from Crusade into this film (they sound pretty darn identical.) Another nefarious practice appears to be (unless my ears misheard) was the "flight from Peru" music but SLIGHTLY slowed down, so as to sound original to anyone listening for new music (I think Lucas did the same trick in Sith when Obi-Wan was docking with the Correlian feighter thing... resued Phantom music, but slowed down. Oooh, how sneaky Lucas is.)

I knew this was going to happen, and I actually wrote a letter to Lucas a while ago, asking him not to do this. Apparently he didn't listen...

Here's my question for this board, following that huge build-up: What is the situation here? Is it:

1) Lucas didn't like Williams music so cut-n-pasted other old Williams music that he (Lucas) preferred more?

or...

2) Did Williams just decide that, heck, why rescore this? Let's just add some of MY OWN music here again?

or...

3) What Lucas in a frenzy to add more CGI scenes to his film that Williams didn't have a chance to adequately score the film? (thus the need to cut-n-paste material?)

As a life-long Williams fan, this practice has frustrated me beyond words, and I'm finally at the point of wanting to post this here, with hopes someone can tell me WHY the score was such a paste job. Same for the Star Wars films: what is the story?

Frankly, I don't get it. George Lucas has John Williams, JOHN WILLIAMS, the greatest composer of the last two centuries at his disposal, and he's content to cut apart and ruin his scores, thoroughly disappointing fans of Williams music?

Why? To me, this is the most nefarious practice for a film-maker to do for fans of film music. I'm the odd-ball who looked forward to Sith, not for the grand story-wrap up, but rather to hear how Williams would score the climatic final battle. Likewise with Indy 4: I only went to see this film, not to see the implausible story or silly acting, but for Williams music. That's it!

I feel like I've been ripped off: paid to see a new film with new music, but instead paying to hear the same music surface again. I also feel like Williams has, once again, been ripped off, unless these reuses of tracks were his idea? Seems unthinkable.

Rob

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Why assume it was Lucas? Spielberg directed it, it was obvious from the start that he saw this as the most direct sequel to Raiders yet, maybe it was his idea.

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They were all new recordings made for the film. It's not the tracked music like we got in ROTJ, AOTC and ROTS, which was music written and recorded for previous films.

Neil

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Well I believe John Williams should take some of the blame since he arranged new recordings of those cues for the film.

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But the post implies it was a decision made without Williams' co-operation. It wasn't. He recorded them for this film. It's not a case of the music being tracked with an earlier recording. It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

Neil

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Well, when you don't have the balls to stand up for your music...TPM, AoTC, RotS, and KotCS is what you deliver.

Sadly, such skills didn't transfer from Hermman to Williams. Goldsmith got all of that.

It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

Williams pretty much went along with everything that Lucas said day 1 of his meeting with JW on TPM. "Make the music broad enough for the editing room, we're editing in the 21st century"

"That's absolutely great George. It's amazing you can do that. "

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Its worth noting that Speilberg tinkers with Williams scores in most every film of his as well. Lost World was one of the worst but even Schindler's List and ET have some tracking. Of course I'm not suggesting he deserves Lucas' reputation in that regard but its still worse than one would hope.

I don't really blame Williams for rearranging previous music since I imagine that's what he was told to do in the same way I don't blame him when he pays attention to the temp track. He knows whose film it is and though I'm sure he tries to "educate" his boss when he can, he's ultimately a hired hand trying to satsify the vision of the director and Lucas as well in this case.

- Adam

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There is no use of pre-existing Indy score recordings in the KotCS. Williams has written an original score for the film and in a sense of nostalgia and homage to his own music he is referencing his own themes and orchestrations from the previous films just like the film itself is heavily leaning on the previous films.

The Ark theme is there because it hints to the audience where the film is going and the following military music is just that, not music for Nazis but for soldiers and the enemies of Indy in general.

The Raiders March reiterations are similar to Raiders but there is more expansive orchestration there and again the scenes reference Indy's past exploits and heroics.

The Illumination/Father and Son theme referenced in 2 scenes is perfectly logical and the orchestration harkens back to TLC for a clear purpose of tying them together and stressing the father and son connection in the new film.

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Well, when you don't have the balls to stand up for your music...TPM, AoTC, RotS, and KotCS is what you deliver.

Sadly, such skills didn't transfer from Hermman to Williams. Goldsmith got all of that.

Goldsmith's output for the last 10 years of his life sucked balls.

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At least he still had the guts to tell Richard Donner to find someone else, when Donner asked him for a lame modern action score for the new "super fast action cut" of his film.

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At least he still had the guts to tell Richard Donner to find someone else, when Donner asked him for a lame modern action score for the new "super fast action cut" of his film.

If you are refering to Time Line then I believe Jerry was too ill and tired to write a completely new score for the movie when Donner reviewed the film and found out that the music he had asked Jerry to write was not appropriate after all.

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So he got Brian Tyler to do his umpteenth iteration of his brilliant action music...that...he has hashed and rehashed over and over again.

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Well, when you don't have the balls to stand up for your music...TPM, AoTC, RotS, and KotCS is what you deliver.

That's fine with me!

It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

Williams pretty much went along with everything that Lucas said day 1 of his meeting with JW on TPM. "Make the music broad enough for the editing room, we're editing in the 21st century"

"That's absolutely great George. It's amazing you can do that. "

Yeah, according to what...?

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1. "A Steve Spielberg movie". Not Lucas.

2. there is no tracked music from previous scores in Crystal Skull (one of the reasons being the difference in sound quality. that's why there is no tracked music from the SW original trilogy in the prequels).

3. Re-using music has been done before. Jedi reused music from Star Wars.

So, wether it was Williams' decission or not, he did use material from previous scores, (with different orchestrations and new recordings), INTEGRATED in the score.

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Well, when you don't have the balls to stand up for your music...TPM, AoTC, RotS, and KotCS is what you deliver.

Sadly, such skills didn't transfer from Hermman to Williams. Goldsmith got all of that.

Goldsmith's output for the last 10 years of his life sucked balls.

Actually their output and style is very similar as far as music not as interesting and re-using ideas so by you estimation Williams music sucks testicles as well.

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We're used to it. Right now someone keeps trolling the main board about Williams orchestrations and Horner fans like to do hit and runs here as well.

But when someone introduces themselves as a new member you have to give them the benefit of doubt.

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I don't want to spoil the party here, but you guys all got trolled quite severly!

Not a troll... just a Williams fan looking for a legit reason behind the reuse of music. :lol:

Granted, I don't do a ton of message posting to boards like this, but this situation with reused music just had me anxious to ask.

Sadly, I feel like the only one in the world who instantly picks up re-used music, and I'm glad to read the answers posted to my question. I find it hard to imagine that Williams would have made the decision to rescore things like the "Flight from Peru", identical note for note. I mean, wouldn't he want to flavor it just a little bit differently if he used it again (similar to how the Marion material used at the end of the film is told with a little more style and emphasis?)

Rob

It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

If that was the case with the prequels, I just don't get it. Why would Williams choose to track in something like the ESB Bespin lightsaber music into the Yoda/Palpatine duel of RoTS? There are just so many inconsistencies to the tracked in music of these films... I can see Lucas or a proder making the decision to do it, but Williams?

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It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

If that was the case with the prequels, I just don't get it. Why would Williams choose to track in something like the ESB Bespin lightsaber music into the Yoda/Palpatine duel of RoTS? There are just so many inconsistencies to the tracked in music of these films... I can see Lucas or a proder making the decision to do it, but Williams?

the script has anakin force-throwing things at obi wan in the mustafar duel.

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maybe even the scene was not shoot, but since it was music already composed, they may have decided to re-record it just in case.

They could always trim-loop the chord progressions to fit the film.

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It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

If that was the case with the prequels, I just don't get it. Why would Williams choose to track in something like the ESB Bespin lightsaber music into the Yoda/Palpatine duel of RoTS? There are just so many inconsistencies to the tracked in music of these films... I can see Lucas or a proder making the decision to do it, but Williams?

the script has anakin force-throwing things at obi wan in the mustafar duel.

However that music underscores Yoda's fight with the emperor.

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It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

If that was the case with the prequels, I just don't get it. Why would Williams choose to track in something like the ESB Bespin lightsaber music into the Yoda/Palpatine duel of RoTS? There are just so many inconsistencies to the tracked in music of these films... I can see Lucas or a proder making the decision to do it, but Williams?

the script has anakin force-throwing things at obi wan in the mustafar duel.

However that music underscores Yoda's fight with the emperor.

yeah, and anakins theme from the podrace is in the gungan battle.

your point being?

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Unlike the podrace music that scene in ROTS plays the music WITHOUT chopping it up. The music from Empire underscores Yoda's fight, not Obi-Wan and Anakin's.

Lucas did not cut and paste that cue.

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Yes, they at least made an effort to keep the cue together (once again showing that, despite the pre-planned tracking, the score in RotS gets treated loads better than the other two prequels). Maybe Lucas decided he wanted more Yoda/Palpatine and cut that part of the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight.

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Unlike the podrace music that scene in ROTS plays the music WITHOUT chopping it up. The music from Empire underscores Yoda's fight, not Obi-Wan and Anakin's.

Lucas did not cut and paste that cue.

OMG Lucas edited the film without chopping the music.

Williams got E.T. finale treatment... almost :lol:

BTW the 1st dialogue between palp and yoda has unreleased music and the ESB music appears full blast.

There could be an edit there

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It's making more sense, after these answers, but ultimately the final outcome is still disappointing: granted I was jazzed to see Indy again, but it's just such a let down to have the rug pulled out with the rehashed music again.

Plus the Ark theme, as the warehouse is first opened, made little sense, as Williams music fans generally associate the ark theme with... the ark of the covenant from Raiders, right? I just didn't follow some fo the music choices here, or in Clones and Sith.

For what it's worth, I will always be a fan of Williams music, but his last three efforts for Lucas (Clones, Sith and Skull) were just not what they should have been. Reused music anywhere just stinks.

Thanks for humoring my question. Sorry if I seemed trollish asking this. Didn't mean to be.

Rob

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Unlike the podrace music that scene in ROTS plays the music WITHOUT chopping it up. The music from Empire underscores Yoda's fight, not Obi-Wan and Anakin's.

Lucas did not cut and paste that cue.

OMG Lucas edited the film without chopping the music.

Williams got E.T. finale treatment... almost :lol:

BTW the 1st dialogue between palp and yoda has unreleased music and the ESB music appears full blast.

There could be an edit there

Apart from tracked music,the music in RotS is actually less chopped up and edited than on the OST .Kind of a mirror situation to TPM and AotC

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It was done fully with Williams. Can we say that about the tracked music in the prequels?

Williams pretty much went along with everything that Lucas said day 1 of his meeting with JW on TPM. "Make the music broad enough for the editing room, we're editing in the 21st century"

"That's absolutely great George. It's amazing you can do that. "

I've heard that Williams was really pretty pissed about it. He stayed on for all the films, though. Why? Nostalgia? The paycheck? Maybe the paycheck...

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I really think Williams had his own agenda.He wanted to have his "Star Wars Symphony " finished regardless of how crappy the films turned out .He knows his scores willl survive when the films are forgotten

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I really think Williams had his own agenda.He wanted to have his "Star Wars Symphony " finished regardless of how crappy the films turned out .He knows his scores willl survive when the films are forgotten

Hmm . . . say what you will about the prequels, but they were all pretty big hits. I don't see them fading into obscurity any time soon, and as long as the originals are around, it'll probably never happen.

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I've heard that Williams was really pretty pissed about it. He stayed on for all the films, though. Why? Nostalgia? The paycheck? Maybe the paycheck...

Where did you hear that? It's not an unreasonable assumption, but we don't have any evidence to support it - save for a French article written back in 2000, whose author was known for his tendency to exaggerate.

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Well, when you don't have the balls to stand up for your music...TPM, AoTC, RotS, and KotCS is what you deliver.

Sadly, such skills didn't transfer from Hermman to Williams. Goldsmith got all of that.

Goldsmith's output for the last 10 years of his life sucked balls.

Such a harsh statement...

I have a question: Why are we film score fans such short tempered maniacs? We read the worst into everything and "defend" ourselves with some of the most ludicrous statements I've ever read. (Not targeting anyone specific; this comment just caught my attention)

And if Goldsmith's output from 1994-2004 (since he didn't write anything in 2005) "sucked balls" then what do you say of the current state of film music? It must require entirely new words!!!

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