Originality in film music.

[Quintus 5,391]

When a composer approaches a new score it is clearly very difficult to achieve a level of originality; something which stands out as being unique and new, or different. I'd suggest that many listeners forget that JW's score to Star Wars was highly original at the time, a grandiose traditional symphonic score for a sci-fi movie? Before that Ennio Morricone was inventing music from the ground up, culminating in his trilogy of Spaghetti Westerns, the score to a movie like A Fistful of Dollars is about as raw, gritty and earthy as it gets.

Even rock band Queen managed to create a great trashy electric score for corn-fest Flash Gordon, a score which you may not normally listen to, or would even wish to, but there is no denying it is a well worked soundtrack and very effective at highlighting the pvc clad B-movie stylings of the film. I think its great fun, I'd not heard a score like it before and I doubt I ever will again.

The most recent example of a score with it's own unique voice would for me be Nick Cave's poetic take on Australian 'Western' The Proposition. Whispered lyrics to a poem can be heard as men ride horses across the desert and minimalistic instrumental flourishes delicately highlight some of the film's most violent sequences to great effect, the score is like a dark lullaby for very evil men. Although I probably wouldn't go out and buy the ost, I would still champion it as a great original score. Something which shouldn't be taken for granted, since I'm sure you will agree that originality doesn't come along often enough, but then it really is a difficult thing to achieve.

[indy4 152]

I think Images needs mentioning.

[Henry B 49]

Images was a radical departure for Williams but not for music in general.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

I'd suggest that many listeners forget that JW's score to Star Wars was highly original at the time, a grandiose traditional symphonic score for a sci-fi movie?

Musically, great though it is, SW is probably one of JW's most unoriginal scores. It's clearly rooted in (mostly) romantic "concert" music and even gets very close to quoting several pieces (Stravinsky most notably). Regarding originality, ESB fares much better.

Images is certainly one of Williams' most original scores, though at that time, he was mostly the traditional guy and Goldsmith was regularly throwing out stuff mostly unheard before.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

Star Wars, Star Trek The Motion Picture, Chariots of Fire, and Crimson Tide are four very monumental scores for four very different reasons. Star Wars brought back the big orchestra, Star Trek brought in instrumental integration, Chariots of Fire redefined the music and business models of Hollywood, and Crimson Tide made that a viable market that no longer sounded like dinky 80s music.

[Quintus 5,391]

Musically, great though it is, SW is probably one of JW's most unoriginal scores. It's clearly rooted in (mostly) romantic "concert" music and even gets very close to quoting several pieces (Stravinsky most notably). Regarding originality, ESB fares much better.

I think you misunderstood me or you read my OP too quickly.

In 1977, a grandiose traditional symphonic score for a sci-fi movie was in fact very original. I'm not interested in whether or not Williams ripped of Holst (he didn't btw), that is not the definition of originality I'm referring to here.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

He didn't rip off Holst, although he clearly approached his style at times, and the Death Star destruction is certainly inspired by the Mars bit (though Goldsmith does a closer copy in Total Recall; Horner's Aliens seems to take Williams' version and push it way over the top). But I also wouldn't call it original to write this kind of music for a science fiction film. It's certainly inspired, in that it was unusual for its time - but in the end, it's basically a continuation of the Golden Age tradition. 20 years earlier, it would have been an excellent score, but not one that stands out by being notably different.

[Wesker 0]

I think Revell's score to "Dead Calm" was pretty original. Also, his take on using haunting female voices heard in The Crow would later be popularized by composers like Zimmer.

Bladerunner, of course, was a somewhat original score. Lots of Morricone stuff heard in the Leone films were very original as well.

[Melange 446]

Brad Fiedel's "The Terminator". Often dismissed, this one was perfect for the mood, imo.

And Jerry Goldsmith's Logan's run. Never one to shy away from experimentation

And of course Jerry's The Omen. Really creative stuff

I also love Carmine Coppola's music for Apocalypse Now. Really surreal stuff.

Oh, and Billy Goldberg's music for Duel. Very subtle in how it operates.

[AC1 3,565]

Solyaris (1972): Synthesizer score by Eduard Artemyev. Those electronic soundscapes are still impressive.

Tron (1982): Great and original blend between synths and orchestra. Music by Wendy Carlos.

2001 (1968): The effect of classical and comtemporary music in this film is still unsurpassed

[Williamsfan301 11]

I think originality lies really with the director of the film and not the composer. Star Wars, for example, Lucas wanted something rooted in that Golden Age of Hollywood sound because thats the genre he was taking a nod at in those films. The greatness of the score was NOT that it was big romantic music for a sci-fi movie (that had been done in the serials Lucas was copying), but that it made those kind of scores "cool" again.

Directors know what they're getting when they hire the composer. A "Goldsmith" composer, a "Williams" composer, a "Vangelis" composer will all give you something different. I think they're typecast as badly as actors are sometimes.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

The most recent example of a score with it's own unique voice would for me be Nick Cave's poetic take on Australian 'Western' The Proposition. Whispered lyrics to a poem can be heard as men ride horses across the desert and minimalistic instrumental flourishes delicately highlight some of the film's most violent sequences to great effect, the score is like a dark lullaby for very evil men. Although I probably wouldn't go out and buy the ost, I would still champion it as a great original score. Something which shouldn't be taken for granted, since I'm sure you will agree that originality doesn't come along often enough, but then it really is a difficult thing to achieve.

If you liked The Proposition, you would love The Assassination Of Jesse James By The Coward Robert Ford. Nick Cave is a pretty damn fine composer, and he co-composed with friend Warren Ellis. The two together make a magnificent duo. Jesse James is one of my favorite scores of all time.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I think originality lies really with the director of the film and not the composer. Star Wars, for example, Lucas wanted something rooted in that Golden Age of Hollywood sound because thats the genre he was taking a nod at in those films. The greatness of the score was NOT that it was big romantic music for a sci-fi movie (that had been done in the serials Lucas was copying), but that it made those kind of scores "cool" again.

I thought Lucas originally wanted to score Star Wars the same way as 2001: with classical pieces. This is probably why several of Williams' compositions sound rather like some classical pieces.

This changes nothing to your argument of course and I agree with you.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

He didn't rip off Holst, although he clearly approached his style at times, and the Death Star destruction is certainly inspired by the Mars bit (though Goldsmith does a closer copy in Total Recall; Horner's Aliens seems to take Williams' version and push it way over the top).

Don't forget Howard Shore's rip-off of Mars in The Two Towers. Hmmm, battle music with a pounding 5/4 ostinato. Where did he get that idea from?

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I can see where you're coming from (you're referring to the bit with the Uruk running towards the wall to ignote the bomb, right?), but I have to come to Shore's defence here.

From Fellowship, the Uruk-hai music has always been in 5/4, a specifically chosen off-kilter beat for these fabricated creatures. As Two Towers progresses, the Uruk-hai music winds its way more and more into the score like an investation, thus resulting in the final battle music also being in 5/4.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

In which case maybe it was always Shore's intention to have the Holst feeling in the Helm's Deep battle music, and he sewed the seeds of this a year previously in Fellowship. If so that shows a kind of attention to detail that I haven't credited Shore with until now.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I don't think I would go that far. And it's not like Holst has patented the 5/4 measure, right?

It seems like every 5/4 piece gets shunted into the Holst rip-off column.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

I wouldn't say that. Rachmaninov's Isle of the Dead (I love the dead ) and Tchaikovsky's fractured waltz are in 5/4 and sound nothing like Holst. Also I wrote a lovely (if I do say so myself) serenade for strings in 5/4 that sounds nothing remotely like Holst. However if you use a strong 5/4 pounding battle rhythm you can't avoid sounding like Holst. Holst may not have a patent on it, but any composer who writes something similar has to accept the fact that the public is going to recognise the clear Holst reference whether it's intended or not.

Anyway, my previous post is the first time I've ever said anything nice about Shore on this MB. I think I need to go and have a lie down somewhere

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Nice?

You accused him of plagiarism!

[pixie_twinkle 44]

Nice?

You accused him of plagiarism!

I know I have said bad things about Shore in the past, but I don't think he's too stupid to have spotted the blindingly obvious connection between his Uruk Hai battle music and Holst's Mars: The Bringer of War.

Do you?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Who is Holst?

[Jeshopk 8]

Nothing is original, only varying degrees of derivative.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

I agree with that statement with one condition: Unless by accident, nothing is original.

[Wojo 2,442]

How do you know that Shore didn't base his Uruk-Hai music on Eidelmann's Star Trek VI, or Zimmer's Gladiator? Those are more blatant copies of Gustav Holst's Mars music, yet you go for Shore's throat. Perhaps because Nicholas Meyer has already admitted his original intent to score Star Trek VI using Holst's The Planets, he is forgiven for commissioning Cliff Eidelmann to write a score to invoke the same emotions using similar rhythms and orchestrations, without paying the Holst estate the royalties. As for Gladiator, the Roman god of war would be fond of the gladiator matches, and so Hans Zimmer did well to use such rhythm to better paint Ridley Scott's vision of ancient Rome. You could argue that such association with a specific piece of classical music better distinguishes this from Miklos Rosza's more original musical interpretation of ancient Rome in Wyler's Ben-Hur, or simply dismiss it as classic Zimmer unoriginality. Neither the score to Gladiator nor Star Trek VI can be seen as very original on its own merits, but within the context of their film onscreen, they work.

Would you rather that Shore have based his Uruk-Hai battle music on Jupiter, the Bringer of Jollity, instead? No, that wouldn't fit, that would be silly.

I'm listening to Mars right now, and aside from sharing the off-kilter 5/4 meter, I don't hear much else in common between it and Shore's Uruk-Hai music to cry foul. They do share loud percussion and loud low brass, but Mars has a sense of grandeur that Shore rightfully did not place in his Uruk-Hai battle music. With Mars, the opposing army (or god of war, more aptly) plods along at its own pace, but the sweeping strings convey a sense of beauty meant to distract from the uneven percussive bass line that's coming to get you. Such as the pomposity and arrogance of ancient Rome. With Shore's music, the 5/4 meter in a driving tempo just fills us with a sense of dread and urgency to get away from this infesting menace, about which nothing is beautiful.

There are only so many notes and so many rhythms, and everything ultimately sounds like something else, whether intentional or by accident. Truly great composers do strive to make their works original and stand apart from their own and other artists' work, but above all, a film score is not meant to stand on its own as a complete work. It must work with what the director shows on-screen. If that means copying from an earlier work or dumbing it down because the director said so, so be it.

[Williamsfan301 11]

I think originality lies really with the director of the film and not the composer. Star Wars, for example, Lucas wanted something rooted in that Golden Age of Hollywood sound because thats the genre he was taking a nod at in those films. The greatness of the score was NOT that it was big romantic music for a sci-fi movie (that had been done in the serials Lucas was copying), but that it made those kind of scores "cool" again.

I thought Lucas originally wanted to score Star Wars the same way as 2001: with classical pieces. This is probably why several of Williams' compositions sound rather like some classical pieces.

This changes nothing to your argument of course and I agree with you.

Yeah, you're right. Lucas was going to go the 2001 route because he didn't know if anyone in Hollywood could write that old style score, until Spielberg set him straight - thank God.

At least Lucas wasn't going behind JW's back during the scoring the way Kubrick did to North.

So, the answer is: Holst rocks

[AC1 3,565]

At least Lucas wasn't going behind JW's back during the scoring the way Kubrick did to North.

I like North but thank god Kubrick followed his heart and didn't bow to the producers' wishes.

Alex

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Aside from the 5/4 measure, I never noticed an overly strong resemblance to Holst in the LOTR music. And while Eidelman's Trek score has some things in common with Holst, as mentioned in the liner notes, the main theme is taken from Stravinsky's Firebird.

[Wojo 2,442]

I did not know that. I haven't touched the liner notes for almost a decade. Fortunately I have The Firebird Suite on my Winamp playlist, so I'll give it a listen.

You've given me the motivation to listen to something other than alphabetical Star Wars.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

I was referring to the Holst stuff. Stravinsky isn't mentioned in the liner notes.

[Wojo 2,442]

Eidleman's Star Trek VI main theme is meant to invoke the same brooding feeling of dread as in the introduction to The Firebird Suite. I don't think the main theme itself is lifted note for note, at least certainly not the fanfarish piece that makes up the Star Trek VI Suite.

The liner notes are given verbatim here.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

However if you use a strong 5/4 pounding battle rhythm you can't avoid sounding like Holst.

Doesn't that actually take the load off Shore's shoulder that you try to place on them?

That Shore intentionally "quoted" Holst with that is as ridiculous as saying Williams' battle drums in "Revenge Of The Sith" are referring to Shore.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

However if you use a strong 5/4 pounding battle rhythm you can't avoid sounding like Holst.

Doesn't that actually take the load off Shore's shoulder that you try to place on them?

That Shore intentionally "quoted" Holst with that is as ridiculous as saying Williams' battle drums in "Revenge Of The Sith" are referring to Shore.

You put the word "quoted" in quotation marks. I never once claimed that Shore quoted (or "quoted") Holst in his Uruk Hai battle music. His rhythm and notes are different, therefore there is clearly no actual quote. I merely pointed out the obvious similarities between Shore's use of a pounding 5/4 ostinato and Holst's use of a pounding 5/4 ostinato in perhaps the most famous piece of "war music" ever written. Coincidence? I seriously doubt it. Shore is no idiot. He knew what he was doing when he elected to write the battle music in 5/4. The reference is quite clear to me. It's a clever in-joke on Shore's part. Composers do this kind of thing all the time.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Did it occur to you that it may be the most famous war music because it's an effective tool? Holst may or may not have been the first to do it, that's completely irrelevant.

Writing music for primeval creatures in 5/4 with a couple of big drums is as common a tool as anything. I'm not saying Shore wasn't aware of being similar to a famous piece, I'm saying I highly doubt he did it intentionally and smiled.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Eidleman's Star Trek VI main theme is meant to invoke the same brooding feeling of dread as in the introduction to The Firebird Suite. I don't think the main theme itself is lifted note for note, at least certainly not the fanfarish piece that makes up the Star Trek VI Suite.

The actual theme is original (at least I don't know anything identical ). The string scale that opens the movie and frequently reappears is pretty much the opening theme from Firebird reversed. And I'm not criticising Eidelman - it's an excellent score.

[AzOutcast 122]

I'm listening to the score for Terminator 2 for the first time in a long time . . . and it's quite good. I really dig all of Brad Fiedel's work for both Terminator flicks and True Lies although admittedly I haven't heard anything else by him. Along with Cameron, he was very noticeably absent from T3 and I wish he was scoring some movies these days.

[Quintus 5,391]

The music to the Terminator 1 & 2 is excellent, but I can't stand it outside of the movies.