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Is John Williams' Talent Declining?


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Is John Williams' Talent Declining?  

52 members have voted

  1. 1. Was JW's work in the 60s-80s better than his work in the 90s-2000s?

    • Yes, he is not as good as he was in the 60s-80s.
      17
    • No, he is just as good/better than he was.
      35


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I've decided that John died back in 2002, and that what we hear of JW is actually William Ross, and what we see of JW is actually Pixar animation, even Spielberg knows not to use the Dreamworks animation dept. for that.

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John Williams as a writer of intelligent, complex and modern music, is only becoming more talented as the days go by.

I think your confusing "intelligent, complex, and modern" with "tired and artistically lazy"...

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John Williams as a writer of intelligent, complex and modern music, is only becoming more talented as the days go by.

I think your confusing "intelligent, complex, and modern" with "tired and artistically lazy"...

Tired? Sometimes. Artistically lazy? Very rarely.

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I've decided that John died back in 2002, and that what we hear of JW is actually William Ross, and what we see of JW is actually Pixar animation, even Spielberg knows not to use the Dreamworks animation dept. for that.

:)

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No, Williams's talent is not in decline, and to state such a thing is fairly nonsensical, as it bespeaks a poor understanding of "talent".

What this boils down to, is whether we agree with Williams's creative direction and choices, or not.

Craft-wise, Williams is writing things he couldn't have penned two or three decades ago. It seems he is no longer as interested in writing for film, though, save for Spielberg's films, and a few select other projects. This is not only understandable, but also artistically very healthy.

It is easy for Williams to write as he did in the 70s and 80s, CoS would be a good point in case. His recent Indy offering shows that he can have great fun with his old clichés, while adding a seemingly effortless technical virtuosity that very few composers can match, if any (and needless to say, I'm not talking about film composers...).

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Well, Marcus, I don't think it's Williams's creative decisions that are at fault, but rather his inspiration. I just don't feel as much of a spark in his music as there used to be. His recent scores have plenty of great moments, but in the "golden age" his scores were continuously great.

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I can't believe some people trash Williams last 10 years output while proclaiming his crappier old scores like Cinderella Liberty "overlooked masterpieces".

Williams composed his share on not so great scores in every decade,even if they all have a few good tracks each.

As I seem to be replying to this same topic every week ,1994-1998 is his least inspired period.

K.M.Also wondering what happened to the Cinderella Liberty thread

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I can't believe some people trash Williams last 10 years output while proclaiming his crappier old scores like Cinderella Liberty "overlooked masterpieces".

Williams composed his share on not so great scores in every decade,even if they all have a few good tracks each.

As I seem to be replying to this same topic every week ,1994-1998 is his least inspired period.

K.M.Also wondering what happened to the Cinderella Liberty thread

Cinderella Liberty beats at least half of his recent output, save for AI, Memoirs of a Geisha and Prisoner of Azkaban. It's also one of the most unique and original works of his. The final cue gives me chills and makes my hairs stand.

As for least inspired period, in 1997 alone he wrote great scores like The Lost World, Amistad, Rosewood and Seven Years in Tibet. I wouldn't call it a part of his least inspired period. Actually, this was one of the best years in his whole career (let alone the complete SW Trilogy release).

P.S.

Yeah, what happened with Cinderella Liberty topic??

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His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.

I'm gonna guess the thread was deleted because it was in poor taste to post that info ahead of Intrada's announcement.

If it is indeed going to be released by them.

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I can't believe some people trash Williams last 10 years output while proclaiming his crappier old scores like Cinderella Liberty "overlooked masterpieces".

Williams composed his share on not so great scores in every decade,even if they all have a few good tracks each.

As I seem to be replying to this same topic every week ,1994-1998 is his least inspired period.

K.M.Also wondering what happened to the Cinderella Liberty thread

Cinderella Liberty beats at least half of his recent output, save for AI, Memoirs of a Geisha and Prisoner of Azkaban. It's also one of the most unique and original works of his. The final cue gives me chills and makes my hairs stand.

I agree, though not necessarily with what you listed it beats. It's not as good as some of his recent output, but like I said in the thread, it's his best score out of everything he did before Jaws.

Modern JW is my favorite, then Jazzy JW, then the JW scores everyone praises.

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His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.

same with someone who dismisses almost every score Williams has composed in the last 10 years.

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I'm not saying you are. But this topic seems to be coming up often.

Personally bluesy Sugarland Express type score are my least favourite of Williams scores ,then 60's comedy Penelope type scores ,then 90's 7 Years in Tibet type dramatic scores.

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hey Mark, no need to attribute malice when there simply wasn't any there.

I never claimed there was any. It was just not a proper thing to do and Marc felt the same way.

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hey Mark, no need to attribute malice when there simply wasn't any there.

I never claimed there was any. It was just not a proper thing to do and Marc felt the same way.

indeed. ANYWAYS, back on topic...I don't know how one can listen to recent scores like Prisoner of Azkaban and Revenge of the Sith, and then come to the conclusion that JW's talent has "declined".

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His non-technical talents have declined.

He can write complex material as well as the Titanic can sink. But since 2004, he hasn't written a single score that can truly capture the imagination with innovative ideas and remarkably complex yet graceful and tidy messages.

To put it bluntly, he's gotten sloppy in the communication/creativity/imagination department. Too many times during the course of Crystal Skull for example, I asked myself, what are are all these extra bits saying? What's the point? What is he trying to get across with this? Why does it sound like I've heard it before? Why is it there if it adds nothing to the tapestry of the score.

Oh yes, the technical skill is there, but there is little to no meaning it these days. It's like reading a research paper on Quantom Mechanics. Yes! Perfect grammar! Excellent spelling! Fantastic sentence structure! Wonderful diction! Good facts! And yet...there is nothing else really there.

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No, Williams's talent is not in decline, and to state such a thing is fairly nonsensical, as it bespeaks a poor understanding of "talent".

What this boils down to, is whether we agree with Williams's creative direction and choices, or not.

Craft-wise, Williams is writing things he couldn't have penned two or three decades ago. It seems he is no longer as interested in writing for film, though, save for Spielberg's films, and a few select other projects. This is not only understandable, but also artistically very healthy.

It is easy for Williams to write as he did in the 70s and 80s, CoS would be a good case in point. His recent Indy offering shows that he can have great fun with his old clichés, while adding a seemingly effortless technical virtuosity that very few composers can match, if any (and needless to say, I'm not talking about film composers...).

Okay, I dunno what just happened...

I was simply going to edit my previous post slightly, and I'm now quoting myself... I'm either tired, or something's not quite right...

I've also been double and triple posting a bit. Sorry. Could be the keyboard...

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Its interesting that for some people his decline is so completely obvious because, so far, 65% of the people answering seem to think he's just as good. Maybe he's not only declining but he's developed the craven ability to trick a majority of his fan base.

- Adam

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Its interesting that for some people his decline is so completely obvious because, so far, 65% of the people answering seem to think he's just as good. Maybe he's not only declining but he's developed the craven ability to trick a majority of his fan base.

- Adam

You think that most people are going to think that the bulk of pre-Last Crusade (including all his pre-Jaws stuff) are going to say it's better than than the bulk of post-80's?

That is partially what the poll implies.

I think there was a great topic on JW's "golden age", which for me is Jaws through Jursasic Park, more or less. Very few clunkers in that period in my opinion.

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The poll isn't explictly laid out like I said - that's true. But that's been the gist of the discussion and a reasonable inference from the results. My only point is the gap between the certainty by some that he's worse and the results which seem to suggest its far from obvious, whatever one's point of view.

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I'm gonna guess the thread was deleted because it was in poor taste to post that info ahead of Intrada's announcement.

Correct

There have been long-lasting topics of poorer taste than that IMO...

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His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.

His "great late 70's and 80's work" set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.

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His works from 2005 set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be... :lol:

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His works from 2005 set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be... :lol:

Yes I think I mentioned that when people were wondering if KOTCS would be composed by 1975 to 1984 Williams or the current version.

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Go tell Conrad Pope, which i think, knows more about music than most of us.

BTW Neimodian's statement is innacurate. He speaks about one year, while both of Us spoke about a period of 10+ years. With only that time (1 year) you cannot extrapolate the future or understand the past.

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I believe you've missed the point of Neimoidian's statement.

He is mocking me and i already said his statement is not accurate or whatever the word is.

He was unconsciously mocking you too.

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Since I've really only dismissed 3 of his works since 1993 and continue to buy the man's music I don't let it concern me.

There's a big difference between throwing a hissy fit and calling older works crappy just because the complete Indy scores haven't been released compared to expressing your opinion that Williams' creativity isn't the same as it was during his peak years.

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His "crappy older work" set the tone for the composer he became. Anyone who dismisses it nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.

His "great late 70's and 80's work" set the tone for the composer he is now. Anyone who dismisses this is nowhere near the Williams fan they claim to be.

I agree.

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What are we arguing about here?

John Williams' style hasn't changed, it never did. He has a continuous filmography, there are no highlight years, IMO. He has hits and misses between Daddy-O and Indy 4.

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John Williams' style hasn't changed,

Yes it has. If you can't grasp that then I don't know what to tell you.

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That isn't the same style at all. Just because there's solo string work and diatonic minor pieces? Similarities between the suspenseful music and "Nacht Aktion," perhaps? These are superficial comparisons.

Besides, I don't find the gulf between Schindler's List and the present day as wide as the gulf between Temple of Doom and Last Crusade. There was a huge change between those two scores. I haven't heard The River; maybe I should so that I could better understand what happened.

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The River is the last opus in the "bluesy" category. But there is one grand sweeping operatic track in it "The Ancestral Home"

the answers lie not in that score ,but in Presumed Innocent ,Always and Born on the Fourth of July ,that is when I noticed a change.

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There's an evolution in his sound overall but, then again, something like Missouri Breaks is completely different stylistically than Star Wars which was written about a year later. You have to really know JW to even know that they're the same person. I know JW has said he doesn't have a style which is my way of thinking about it as well. His technique has evolved but if he does a completely different project the scores can be about as different stylistically as can be while still being the same person. Presumed Innocent compared to Home Alone in the same year for example and there's very little stylistically in common with the two though, again, there's a kind of abstract voice or technique that he brings to the table that we recognize if we've heard a lot of music. The style comes into the equation for me if we're talking about his big orchestral scores which tend to share more in common with eachother.

- Adam

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I believe you've missed the point of Neimoidian's statement.

He is mocking me and i already said his statement is not accurate or whatever the word is.

He was unconsciously mocking you too.

I never mock unconsciously :o

And yes, I was mocking :nopity: , but on the other hand, it's true, that certain elements introduced in his music in 2005 are being developed in his later work(s). There have been several scores of his (during his career) that became highly influential on many of his future projects.

Marc can be as arbitrary as a referee in the Euro Cup when it comes to what stays and what goes.

Also, he hates the Polish, he told me!

Probably not without good reason. ;)

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Platinum Era:

1989 - Born on the Fourth of July

1989 - Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

1988 - The Accidental Tourist

1987 - Empire of the Sun

1987 - The Witches of Eastwick

1986 - SpaceCamp

1984 - The River

1984 - Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom

1983 - Return of the Jedi

1982 - Monsignor

1982 - E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial

1982 - Yes, Giorgio (Theme)

1981 - Heartbeeps

1981 - Raiders of the Lost Ark

1980 - The Empire Strikes Back

1979 - 1941

1979 - Dracula

1978 - Superman - The Movie

1978 - Jaws 2

1978 - The Fury

1977 - Close Encounters of the Third Kind

1977 - Star Wars

1977 - Black Sunday

1976 - Midway

1976 - The Missouri Breaks

1976 - Family Plot

1975 - The Eiger Sanction

1975 - Jaws

I await another classic with huge anticipation

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