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Scherzo For Motorcycle and Orchestra (revised)


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The original concert version was pretty straightforward and single-minded in its insistence on the main ostinato (played fiercely by the BSO on the Spielberg/Williams Collaboration), mostly just interrupted by the Nazi theme a couple of times, but without ever losing its drive. I think the new flourishes rather over-complicate that idea. They new interruptions feel a bit like the ESB SE insert that breaks Hyperspace.

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8 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Oh dear, nothing nearly so terrible. 

 

11 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

They new interruptions feel a bit like the ESB SE insert that breaks Hyperspace.

 

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If his concert programming is any indication, I would say this is his favorite scherzo (from his own work), and Out to Sea/Shark Cage his favorite fugue.  

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22 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I think it's a fun reimagining, but I don't want it to replace the original concert arrangement. They should coexist. Has JW withdrawn the original arrangement?

 

The original arrangement (as featured in the 1990 Spielberg/Williams collabs album) was never published. From what I remember, he performed it only a handful of times over the years before he wrote the revision, which instead has been performed several times and has also been officially published by Hal Leonard ever since.

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Do you know when the revised version premiered, exactly?  Neil started this thread when he heard at at rehearsals at the Hollywood Bowl in the summer of 2008, but was that the first time anyone heard it?  Or had it already been played live before then and he just wasn't aware of it when he heard it there?

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On 16/01/2022 at 4:01 AM, Jay said:

And I think the end credits just tracks in the same recording of the film cue? I honestly don't recall right now. 

 

The end credits version is a different recording, it's much faster. To the point where it's jarring to listen to the actual cue afterwards because it feels glacial in comparison. Same thing with Scherzo for X-Wings.

 

John Williams and insane tempo inconsistencies, name a more iconic duo (looking at you, Jurassic Park theme).

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13 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

The end credits version is a different recording, it's much faster. To the point where it's jarring to listen to the actual cue afterwards because it feels glacial in comparison. Same thing with Scherzo for X-Wings.

 

Ooh thanks, now I want to listen and compare! 

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19 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

The end credits version is a different recording, it's much faster. To the point where it's jarring to listen to the actual cue afterwards because it feels glacial in comparison. Same thing with Scherzo for X-Wings.

 

John Williams and insane tempo inconsistencies, name a more iconic duo (looking at you, Jurassic Park theme).

X-Wings is not part of the End Credit suite.  Do you mean his concert performances of the piece?  

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15 minutes ago, Tom said:

X-Wings is not part of the End Credit suite.  Do you mean his concert performances of the piece?  

 

Yeah sorry that's what I meant - and in the case of X-Wings the concert version (as heard on the OST) is slower than the film cue (the recording of which isn't present at all on the OST, likely because it's so cut up in the film). 

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36 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

The end credits version is a different recording, it's much faster. To the point where it's jarring to listen to the actual cue afterwards because it feels glacial in comparison.

 

The actual cue is too slow, period.

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2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

The actual cue is too slow, period.

 

Nah, it works great in the film. It has a slapstick weight to it that matches the slower pace of actions scenes from the 80s. Compared to most action cues and scenes these days though, yeah it seems slow.

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3 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

Yeah sorry that's what I meant - and in the case of X-Wings the concert version (as heard on the OST) is slower than the film cue (the recording of which isn't present at all on the OST, likely because it's so cut up in the film). 

In terms of the end credits suite, I hate the slow tempo of Finn's theme (or whatever it is called) versus as used in the actual film.  

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14 hours ago, Jay said:

Do you know when the revised version premiered, exactly?  Neil started this thread when he heard at at rehearsals at the Hollywood Bowl in the summer of 2008, but was that the first time anyone heard it?  Or had it already been played live before then and he just wasn't aware of it when he heard it there?

 

The first account of an official live performance of the revised version is Film Night at Tanglewood in August, 2013. It was then published on Hal Leonard in 2014. The performance heard by Neil in 2008 was likely a first pass of the revision he wanted to try out.

 

The previous version was performed only twice in Boston (May and July 1990).

 

15 hours ago, Ludwig said:

The thing I'm wondering is whether, with these 2nd-round revisions, Williams may be trying to smooth out some of the changes in key, or at least give a little more time in preparing for them so they sound even more like a concert piece rather than an imported film cue.

 

It just seems that Williams has been trying to establish his legacy in the concert hall as much as he can in recent years, even in seemingly smaller ways like this.

 

JW stated several times he's often not happy of what he wrote, so my guess is that he sees these concert versions as opportunity or chances to have something he thinks is more musically satisfying from his own perspective. He is certainly aware that these concert arrangements will be what orchestras will mainly perform in the future when they will program concerts of his music, so I guess he takes a lot of care in terms of what is left to posterity.

 

I know it's a slippery slope from the fans' point of view, as we tend to get affectionate to the first pass of any music piece because that is what we fell in love with in the first place, but there is a long tradition in the history of music of composers going back and retouch what they wrote (Brahms, Stravinsky, Prokofiev to name a few), so JW is definitely in good company there.

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4 hours ago, TownerFan said:

 

The first account of an official live performance of the revised version is Film Night at Tanglewood in August, 2013. It was then published on Hal Leonard in 2014. The performance heard by Neil in 2008 was likely a first pass of the revision he wanted to try out.

 

Woah, that's crazy! 

 

4 hours ago, TownerFan said:

The previous version was performed only twice in Boston (May and July 1990).

 

Only twice? Damn! 

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4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

In the actual movie it is.


Actually it’s not- at least in the film release. The film as released just had the end credits pretty much as it exists on the CD release. Then once the movie hit streaming platforms/Disney Plus/DVD/Blu Ray, the end credits were lengthened pretty considerably. I think they replaced the part of Rey’s theme as recorded for the end credits with the concert version and inserted Scherzo for X Wings in there as well. 

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19 minutes ago, tranders65 said:


Actually it’s not- at least in the film release. The film as released just had the end credits pretty much as it exists on the CD release. Then once the movie hit streaming platforms/Disney Plus/DVD/Blu Ray, the end credits were lengthened pretty considerably. I think they replaced the part of Rey’s theme as recorded for the end credits with the concert version and inserted Scherzo for X Wings in there as well. 

Are you sure on this?

My mind might play tricks on me, but I am quite certain, that I heard the Scherzo for X-Wing during the end credits in the cinema. But I wouldn't bet on it. I like the end credits without the scherzo better anyway. Same as I like the end credits of The Last Jedi better without Yoda's theme.

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Scherzo for X Wing was not in the cinema credits. The soundtrack is accurate to the cinema version except that it shortens March of the resistance. The home video version replaced the statement of Rey’s theme with the concert recording (an awful choice) and then tacked on Scherzo. I remember all this well because I was very pissed about it at the time. 

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The OST album contains exactly what Williams intended to be heard in the end credits, as it matches the sheet music titled "8M75 Finale (11/11/15)".  At some point after recording that and assembling the OST album, the end credits roll got extended, so in the final film (and matched on the FYC), the resistance march portion of that composition was dropped out and replaced with the same recording as the "The Resistance March" OST album track.

 

Then when it hit home video and streaming, the end credits were extended yet again, so the Rey's Theme portion of the composition was dropped out and replaced with the same recording as the "Rey's Theme" OST album track, and the "Scherzo For X-Wings" OST album track was added in too.

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Why do they keep screwing up the intended end credits suites in all the Star Wars films?

 

I'm trying to think if any after ESB match what JW intended? They all seem hacked up or partially tracked in some way. Replacing the Imperial March coda for AOTC was a downright terrible decision. 

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For AOTC, George didn't just replace the coda - he dropped Williams ENTIRE cue and tracked in "Across The Stars" instead

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On 17/01/2022 at 2:29 PM, Jay said:

 

Woah, that's crazy! 

 

 

Only twice? Damn! 

 

That's what the BSO archive tells me. Maybe it was performed in LA or somewhere else, but it seems one of those pieces that rarely got performed before JW did the revision, which he evidently prefers.

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