The trouble with John Williams is...

[Hlao-roo 389]

You seem to be contradicting the point you were making earlier, but I take it you're referring to a different sort of "technical expertise" here -- that is, the degree to which the composer succeeds cinematically. Here it might be fair to say that Williams hasn't lost a step, although I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's at his "peak" ability -- unless his career consists of multiple peaks.

No, I am indeed referring to both his talents as a musician and his ability to serve a film and it's audience. Williams in his recent approach to movies has been too sophisticated to satisfy the basic needs of a filmic presentation. His music is less black and white, than it once was. That sounds like some crazy sort of contradiction and I apologise if you fail to grasp my almost abstract meaning. Indeed as the more interesting the discussion becomes, the more difficult I am finding it to word my exact meaning! Hopefully there are others here who know where I am coming from.

I apologize if I'm continually misconstruing your point. Are you suggesting that as his style (d)evolves, Williams is less and less capable of serving the needs of popular cinema? I don't believe that to be true, but if your point has any veracity, I believe that it would be because cinema itself has changed. As shots and scenes have become jumpier, zippier, and more frenetic, Williams and other veterans have inevitably had to adjust. I think that, for better or for worse, Williams has striven to adapt to a agree that others have not or were unwilling (see Barry, John), the result being that his action licks have amped up on the energy and, ironically, the enervation.

[TownerFan 4,983]

The majority of your observations lack an important and fundamental piece:

Yes, John Williams' film music has changed. But films changed as well.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams hasn't changed at all. I'll take any of his scores from the 90's and 00's over anything from the 70's or 80's.

[indy4 155]

He has changed, his style has changed greatly.

His overall quality of work, however, has remained consistant since the 1970s.

[pieta97 0]

He has changed, his style has changed greatly.

His overall quality of work, however, has remained consistant since the 1970s.

I read somewhere above that JW has become too sophisticated.

I agree but, I don't think JW is the one overall at fault in this area. Lucas and Spielberg and many others of the 70's-80's era that we all love did their best work before THEY became sophisticated. Example: Compare GF1 and GF2 to GF3/ EP IV, V, VI to I, II, III. Lucas and Coppola both displayed their own sophistication by going from simple (Blue collar) films to sophisticated (Aristocratic) films. Plus, these two are buddies! GF 1 and 2 were about NYC Mafia families, GF3 - the Vatican, Stocks and International corruption. IV, V, VI = Rebels, smugglers, pirates and farmboys as the focus, I, II, III = Senators, Chancellors and elitist organizations. Art reflects life people!

I mean really, imagine JW scoring/working with Lucas, Spielberg NOW, given their success and experience. It's a completely different collaboration with a group of people who are more seasoned and experienced. It's like that line in Rocky III " The worst thing happened to you - you got civilized".

But, I think JW still got it, and blows all others away. For example, I loved Ottman's SR, but still not in character/tone with JW's Superman. I also LOVED AOTC, even more than ROTS, especially Across the Stars and the whole return to Tatooine/Tuskin Camp material. I just think editing (B. Burt) got in the way of the score's presentation in the film and the soundtracks of both AOTC and ROTS lacked too much and needed more presentation on the CD.

A big also is the fact that the movie industry overall today does not reflect that of the "golden era" we all know of. Sadly, the audience of mainstream movies for the most part does not desire to recieve film scores the way our generation did, their exposure to music is actually an exposure to more, faster media - very differnet from our own experince as youngsters.

Case in point, I took a youth ministry class over the summer and it was pointed out by the professor that the USA's biggest export is media, especially geared towards the tween/teen/young adult range, the USA dictates pop culture. It's a huge industry which spends Millions in research alone to attract people to a product faster and easier.

So, JW/Filmaker's sophistication + media today overshadows the product/experience we received - it's not all JW being past his prime. Not even close.

My one hope is to someday see him conduct live, this and seeing the "whole story" (Ep.I - VI) would make for me to die content.

One down, one to go.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He has changed, his style has changed greatly.

I fail to see how his style has changed. Listen to "Martin vs. Tavington" from The Patriot and tell me that that isn't 100% John Williams.

[Henry B 50]

Yup... that's 100% John Williams... of the year 2000.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He has always used trumpets like that. It's like a little signature stamp.

[Morn 8]

Wow Quint, I can not believe what a low opinion of film music you seem to have. Film music is supposed to be sophicated music, those best at it have all been higly sophisticated composers, goldsmith, alex north, ennio morricone, Bernard herrmann, eric korngold, miklos rozsa etc. It is not that Williams is too sophicated, it is rather a lack of composers with skill and integrity, most film music today is poorly done.

[Red 75]

John Williams hasn't changed at all. I'll take any of his scores from the 90's and 00's over anything from the 70's or 80's.

Incorrect.

[John Crichton 4]

I'd take most of his '00s scores over '90s scores, though.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams hasn't changed at all. I'll take any of his scores from the 90's and 00's over anything from the 70's or 80's.

Correct.

Glad we agree.

[crocodile 8,006]

I always blamed non-linear editing systems for most film music' problems. The way you can have multiple cuts, constant re-shaping of sequences, tight post-production schedule. I think for someone who uses paper and pencil to write music it can be very uncomfortable. JW's scores suffer because he is not even allowed to create an unified whole, he doesn't have time to do that. I think he's completely lost in this new era. Which is probably the reason why he isn't working on anything else than Spielberg's films.

And all of above is as well a reason why LOTR trilogy never will be regarded as great as some old golden/silver age classics. It's too choppy, musically. It's not Shore's fault, obviously. You can't have a easy flowing and consistent piece of music if you won't let it... flow.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Choppy? are you mad?

It's ll well thought out musically as anything I've heard.

[crocodile 8,006]

It's well thought out, I agree. But far from consistent. Due to constant rewriting and re-editing. Shore may say he was happy do do all these things, but it still harms his work.

Karol - who is probably a little mad indeed.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Examples?

[MissPadmé 17]

Miguel said it and he is true. John Williams is a professional modern contempory composer who happens to write for film music. the one who understands the meaning of this sentence won't complain..

and all the others stop bitching about the stuff you don't understand and be happy with the fanfares you have at home.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

who happens to write for film music.

You make it sound like it makes no difference what he writes for.

Every note he writes is dictated by the film, it's pacing, it's story, the emotions the director wants portrayed in music.

If you can't understand that then you have no place patronizing others!

[crocodile 8,006]

I haven't listened to it in a long time... Let me think. Lighting of the beacons, the following sequence of escape from Osgiliath. The music bulids and stops all the time. You can tell it was rewritten many times, by just listening to it. Many longer tracks on the CR sets feel that way. FOTR is mostly fine, but the other two?

Karol

[MissPadmé 17]

wow what an reply. thank you that you explain filmmusic to me, because I had no idea atall... you really think I meant it that way?

I count you to the latter group then. I know you don't care

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lady, next time.....don't bring a knife to a gunfight!

[MissPadmé 17]

Ok... then you choose PAIN!!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Maybe you don't know what pain is!

[MissPadmé 17]

Isn't pain just a Palin without an L?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is only one Palin!

[Quintus 5,399]

No, I am indeed referring to both his talents as a musician and his ability to serve a film and it's audience. Williams in his recent approach to movies has been too sophisticated to satisfy the basic needs of a filmic presentation. His music is less black and white, than it once was. That sounds like some crazy sort of contradiction and I apologise if you fail to grasp my almost abstract meaning. Indeed as the more interesting the discussion becomes, the more difficult I am finding it to word my exact meaning. Hopefully there are others here who know where I am coming from.

In a word, "dense."

Actually the correct word would be 'intoxicated', as I ever so slightly was late last night whilst attempting to engage in forum conversation. Not always a good idea; indeed reading me back I can see exactly where you're coming from . I don't know where in the world it was '05.26pm', but here in England it was nearing midnight, I think. I shall return to the thread when I get home from work, if I can be bothered.

I am basically arguing that Williams doesn't inspire me any more. His music serves it's purpose and that's about al it does, there is absolutely no heart or at least I hear none. I honestly believe that Williams is less and less interested in scoring movies nowadays. They do nothing for him, they rarely inspire him. He's been there, done that.

He is too sophisticated for film music. One can attempt to deconstruct my thoughts to their hearts content, but my feelings are straightforward enough.

[A24 4,331]

IMO, his harmonies have become less interesting. He seems to deviate from his jazz roots more and more. Didn't he recently say he's more into old classical music than into 20th Century music these days?

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Were did he say that?

[A24 4,331]

In a recent interview somewhere. I can't remember how or where. Probably it was from a link I found on this site or from the interview he did for the War Of The Worlds DVD .

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh, I forgot that filmscore excisted.

[MissPadmé 17]

In a recent interview somewhere. I can't remember how or where. Probably it was from a link I found on this site or from the interview he did for the War Of The Worlds DVD .

no but what he said was in an interveiw done, because of the JW Tribute concert in Ghent:

his music much derives from jazz, much more than people know.. and what he means with that is chord construction, chordprogression, meoldic structure, rhythmic patterns etc.

[Henry B 50]

No, I am indeed referring to both his talents as a musician and his ability to serve a film and it's audience. Williams in his recent approach to movies has been too sophisticated to satisfy the basic needs of a filmic presentation. His music is less black and white, than it once was. That sounds like some crazy sort of contradiction and I apologise if you fail to grasp my almost abstract meaning. Indeed as the more interesting the discussion becomes, the more difficult I am finding it to word my exact meaning. Hopefully there are others here who know where I am coming from.

In a word, "dense."

Actually the correct word would be 'intoxicated', as I ever so slightly was late last night whilst attempting to engage in forum conversation. Not always a good idea; indeed reading me back I can see exactly where you're coming from . I don't know where in the world it was '05.26pm', but here in England it was nearing midnight, I think. I shall return to the thread when I get home from work, if I can be bothered.

I am basically arguing that Williams doesn't inspire me any more. His music serves it's purpose and that's about al it does, there is absolutely no heart or at least I hear none. I honestly believe that Williams is less and less interested in scoring movies nowadays. They do nothing for him, they rarely inspire him. He's been there, done that.

He is too sophisticated for film music. One can attempt to deconstruct my thoughts to their hearts content, but my feelings are straightforward enough.

Hahaha oh man no. I meant Williams' music is dense. It's cumbersome and overly complicated. I forgot that "dense" can mean "stupid" in Britain.

IMO, his harmonies have become less interesting. He seems to deviate from his jazz roots more and more. Didn't he recently say he's more into old classical music than into 20th Century music these days?

Alex

Yeah, he said he's going back in time (or something, it was translated) to Bach and Haydn (or was it Haydn and Mozart?).

[Red 75]

I'd take most of his '00s scores over '90s scores, though.

That's a personal opinion. But to say that Williams' writing has not changed in his 40+ year career is just factually wrong.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Then explain to me how his writing has changed. He has kept a consistent style as a composer to my ears.

[Desplat13 1]

Then explain to me how his writing has changed. He has kept a consistent style as a composer to my ears.

I did.

I can write mindless notes all over a paper, and it will not be complex. It takes more than just a bunch of notes everywhere to make it complex. What is more important is how the notes interact with each other, and in that I really do not think Williams has gotten more complex. He has just changed. Back in the age of, say, the old Indy movies, his notes were supporting longer melodies, usually, and lots of folks seem to like that more. Fine. Nowadays, he uses short motifs more than he used to, and his notes are supporting those. We may have more woodwind flares than we used to. Does that make it more complex? No, those aren't especially complex, there is just a bunch of them.

Now I think it might be true that back in the day Williams sometimes used the orchestra like a smaller ensemble more than he now does. For instance, he might only have 4 parts going at a certain point, whereas that rarely happens now. But he was also writing plenty of things back then that would have tons and tons of parts going ("Battle of Hoth" is just one example EDIT: Ha, I wrote that before I saw Alan's post). So he was capable of writing just as 'complex', if you will, stuff back then. He chose to spend more time on melodies. Now he chooses to spend more time on motifs. But I think that is just a style change. The back and forth between dense and sparse does not make the complete score any simpler.

And remember, there can be sparse orchestrations which are very complex harmonically, and vice versa.

[Morn 8]

IMO, his harmonies have become less interesting. He seems to deviate from his jazz roots more and more. Didn't he recently say he's more into old classical music than into 20th Century music these days?e.

Ahh but he has become more rhymic and less accessible, I think therefore his musicianship is at it's peak this decade. And he's more comfortable with expecting more out of the listener, rather than always going for an easy on the ear neo-romantism, lately he's been doing a more Goldsmith/North like approach.

I think rather than writing above the standard of film music, Williams is now writing to the standard that it's best composers of the past have done.

The problem is really, nearly everyone else is failing, with a few exceptions like Morricone.

I would remind you people, 90% of everything is crap as they say, wait a few decades the quality music will be what people remember, and Williams will definitely be among that which is remembered.

[Hlao-roo 389]

IMO, his harmonies have become less interesting. He seems to deviate from his jazz roots more and more. Didn't he recently say he's more into old classical music than into 20th Century music these days?e.

Ahh but he has become more rhymic and less accessible, I think therefore his musicianship is at it's peak this decade. And he's more comfortable with expecting more out of the listener, rather than always going for an easy on the ear neo-romantism, lately he's been doing a more Goldsmith/North like approach.

It's one thing to praise Williams for not resting on his stylistic laurels; it's quite another to imply that neo-romanticism, by its accessibility, is somehow of inferior status as music.

[Quintus 5,399]

Hahaha oh man no. I meant Williams' music is dense. It's cumbersome and overly complicated. I forgot that "dense" can mean "stupid" in Britain.

Thing is though, your choice of word was perfect for my ramblings! Oh dear.

[Morn 8]

IMO, his harmonies have become less interesting. He seems to deviate from his jazz roots more and more. Didn't he recently say he's more into old classical music than into 20th Century music these days?e.

Ahh but he has become more rhymic and less accessible, I think therefore his musicianship is at it's peak this decade. And he's more comfortable with expecting more out of the listener, rather than always going for an easy on the ear neo-romantism, lately he's been doing a more Goldsmith/North like approach.

It's one thing to praise Williams for not resting on his stylistic laurels; it's quite another to imply that neo-romanticism, by its accessibility, is somehow of inferior status as music.

I tend to feel that a composer who's hesitant to write inaccessible film music, suggests a low opinion of the genre and it's audience. I also think that going for neo-romanticism, means you miss out on modern rhythm and strong dissonance, a lesser vocabulary.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Or he just writes what the film needs. Could you imagine Star Wars working as well without neo-romanticism?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

he's become too sophisticated for film music.

His technical prowess is now at its peak and the lowly requirements of writing for film are wholly uninteresting to the still hungry mind of the seasoned master. JW finds the prospect of being inspired a much more challenging quest, these days.

The downside for the film music fan is that whilst so obviously writing superb music, his recent film scores remain nothing more than an exercise in loyal (yet waning) enthusiasm.

To be a fan of JW is to be a fan of a golden era which will never return.

I've moved on already.

The thing is, that it is not his audience that has moved on, but Mr. Williams himself. I don't think that John Williams could write a score as complex or as downright beautiful as "TESB" now as he did in '79/'80, and I personally think that he would not want to. He simply expresses himself differently through his music nowadays, as opposed to, say, 20 years ago. It is in his nature to explore new ways of communicating musicaly, and true fans will ALWAYS give him the benefit of the doubt, as well as their time, and money. Remember; we all have the option of listening to "S.W.", "CE3K", "E.T.", etc., ad nausem, or we can come along for the ride, and experience newer material, as well as revisiting older works at our leisure. That way, we get the best of both worlds.

[Hlao-roo 389]

To be a fan of JW is to be a fan of a golden era which will never return.

true fans will ALWAYS give him the benefit of the doubt, as well as their time, and money.

We seem to have this tendency at this forum to try to establish who is and isn't really a fan of John Williams. If you can't budget the money to buy the FSM blue box, you're not a true fan. If you don't edit, splice, rearrange, and tack on ripped video game music to your CD albums, you're not a true fan. And here we have two more definitions just as glaring in their exclusivity. Can we please give it a rest, already?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If you can't budget the money to buy the FSM blue box, you're not a true fan.

Correct

[Hlao-roo 389]

If you can't budget the money to buy the FSM blue box, you're not a true fan.

Correct

Darn.

[Desplat13 1]

I guess I will give up on my striving for fan status, then.

[Quintus 5,399]

To be a fan of JW is to be a fan of a golden era which will never return.

true fans will ALWAYS give him the benefit of the doubt, as well as their time, and money.

We seem to have this tendency at this forum to try to establish who is and isn't really a fan of John Williams. If you can't budget the money to buy the FSM blue box, you're not a true fan. If you don't edit, splice, rearrange, and tack on ripped video game music to your CD albums, you're not a true fan. And here we have two more definitions just as glaring in their exclusivity. Can we please give it a rest, already?

I admitted later in the thread that I was wrong to suggest such a thing.

[publicist 4,643]

Complicated or not, he really could lose some of his redundant action music licks...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No more Xylophones!

[Bryant Burnette 654]

No xylophonophobia, please.

[Morlock 11]

No politics allowed, people.