The Evolution of John Williams

[Ollie 1,059]

Boy talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

You sure know how to dish the Bulls*** with the best of them.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Am i the only one who finds desert chase not a very pleasant listen, too jarring to be played loud

And that's what we've been trying to say. It's bold, it's written by a man who wasn't scared of pushing the limits, who wasn't scared of redefining expectations. This would be a man who'd stick a fork in a power outlet just for the hell of getting a jolt. It has a heart and soul. It's living and breathing music. And yet every note is there for a reason. It accomplishes a narrative function. This was after all, the man who launched Star Wars with a massive blast of the orchestra. It was heresy in the day!

The majority of Crystal Skull is the exact opposite. It's clinical, it runs through the motions, and it's overcooked with lots of stylistic fluff. There's a lot of ornamentation for no narrative purpose.

It's sort of like comparing cheese that's kept in a fridge (modern Williams music) in a plastic bag versus real living cheese (older Williams music).

[Desplat13 1]

Of course Williams themes, especially for Irina and the skull, are better than any other themes being written recently that I know of.

Irina's Theme does not really fit the character I feel, too tragic, not menacing enough.

Of course Leia's Theme does not really fit Leia's personality either, so....

Oh, you watch movies? I just listen to the music...

[Quintus 5,399]

I agreed with some of what Mr Starkiller had to say, but:

early reports credited the skull music to the player of the board. NO THANKS!

Get outta here!!! That's just lame arsed argument right there!

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Boy talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

You sure know how to dish the Bulls*** with the best of them.

Hehe

It's always fun to upset the nostalgic fanboys.

early reports credited the skull music to the player of the board. NO THANKS!

Get outta here!!! That's just lame arsed argument right there!

Well, we still dont know if the bridge percussion is by williams or not.

It would have been interesting to have more of the instrument, but IF as I said, seeing the early reports, i definately would have prefered that famous fingerboard player roye as as small as it could.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Luke you're such a fangirl.

[Quintus 5,399]

Take the fan part out of the equation and you're bang on the money.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Luke you're such a fangirl.

Meh, i'm not interested in zimmer fans*, if that what you are offering.

*male or female

[Quintus 5,399]

I suspect you would take the female equivalent, gladly and eagerly

A woman who is interested in film music at all would be good. Hans Zimmer is at least an acceptable start. Good advice that.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Luke you're such a girl.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I'm getting lost with the repetition.

Is that some kind of joke?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Girl.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Girl.

OK

'You are the greatest fan of John Williams' 2000s works'

Beat that.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I left you without words. Sorry for being that harsh.

My apologies.

[DarkLord89 0]

Oh come on Jessie, you know the Joker's siren is 10 times more readily remembered than the dooo-doooo-dooooo....something something Crystal Skull theme!

I think that the most reliable metre for this statement is how many casual movie-goers actually remember the music from films they recently watched, if it struck them so deeply that it's been impressed in their minds. According to this criterion, I'm so sorry to say this, but the reality surrounding me disagrees with this statement. I watched TDK with some friends, and NONE of them noticed the Joker's siren (or should I call it a "one-note theme"?). That's not saying that the Crystal Skull theme is firm in people's mind.

But this reality also tells me another thing, about Zimmer's more memorable tunes than Williams'. Within the '00 film score output, people only remember "He's a Pirate" and "Hedwig's Theme". NO other particular theme from ANY other motion picture, save for "The Battle" (the beginning anthem theme) and "Now We Are Free" from "Gladiator", but that's mostly due to their usage in bombarding TV ads (oh, and they were NOT for the film). They are written respectively by Zimmer and by Williams: no other '00 film composer's music is as known as those two. It's a kind of tie.

Nonetheless, people easily continue to remember the "Star Wars" main theme and "The Imperial March", "Back to the Future", "Rocky", "Indiana Jones", "Superman", "Ghostbusters". I usually use those when it comes to "guess-the-score" games: the Oscar-winning "Schindler's List" is already too difficult.

Matteo

P.S. - How ironic, it seems that John Williams' nostalgia isn't enough nostalgic to please his fans' nostalgia... Kind of a funny situation, isn't it?

[Quintus 5,399]

One last time. Complexity and number of notes does not equal quality of score. That is why I consider the crude scores to cheap films like Evil Dead 1&2 and Dawn of the Dead to be just as great and timeless as anything JW ever recorded in analogue.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nonetheless, people easily continue to remember the "Star Wars" main theme and "The Imperial March", "Back to the Future", "Rocky", "Indiana Jones", "Superman", "Ghostbusters". I usually use those when it comes to "guess-the-score" games: the Oscar-winning "Schindler's List" is already too difficult.

Matteo

I'm not interested in what Joe the plumber thinks of filmscores!

P.S. - How ironic, it seems that John Williams' nostalgia isn't enough nostalgic to please his fans' nostalgia... Kind of a funny situation, isn't it?

The first Harry Potter score is by far the most successfull merger of old-school John Williams thematic brilliance and his modern sensibilities.

[TownerFan 4,983]

How ironic, it seems that John Williams' nostalgia isn't enough nostalgic to please his fans' nostalgia...

Very well said.

[DarkLord89 0]

One last time. Complexity and number of notes does not equal quality of score. That is why I consider the crude scores to cheap films like Evil Dead 1&2 and Dawn of the Dead to be just as great and timeless as anything JW ever recorded in analogue.

Who spoke about complexity and number of notes? I don't think I did, nor I meant to.

EDIT - I re-read my post and found the "one-note theme" tag. I used the quotation marks because either it's not a theme for it's just one note, or it doesn't consist of just one note. I usually consider the second option better, after a particular reasoning I did. Nonetheless that was just a side observation, it didn't concern the general topic.

I'm not interested in what Joe the plumber thinks of filmscores!

Answer 1: Actually Joe the plumber is nothing that comes across my situation, also considering the fact I'm European.

Answer 2: Are you going to say that the actual preferences about film music are to come just from us? That sounds a bit elitist, and I often quarrel with people thinking "their" music is greater (when in most cases it barely misses the "utter trash" target)... Also, I'm not trying to understand how effective or how good a score is (something for which your argument would have fit and which I would have agreed with), but how memorable a score is. The Star Wars phenomen was what it was because casual movie-goers remembered the main tunes by heart as well (as do many people with instant classics today). Even in the 19th century illiterate people remembered almost by heart what are now considered the best arias in the opera music (such as Verdi's "Va' pensiero", Rossini's "Largo al factotum" or Puccini's "Nessun dorma").

Answer 3: Then obviously you are free to think that the answer in my previous post wasn't directed at you.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why talk about your hobby or passion with someone who does not share it?

[DarkLord89 0]

Why talk about your hobby or passion with someone who does not share it?

It seems I'm not able to explain myself. My experience with my hobbies or passions enable me to form an opinion about something concerning them (in this particular case, scores). I have more criteria about how good is a score, or about how effective is a score, than the casual movie-goer who barely notices the score at all (again, just for taking into account a recent experience within 2008, my friends didn't catch the Joker's siren, while on the other hand I did, and kind-of liked the effect it produces). But as far as memorability is concerned, taking into account an opinion from one who isn't usually impressed from film scores (or barely cares to them all) could be very useful in trying to understand the memorability of an effort. I think we're all "spoiled", from a certain point of view.

For example, another friend of mine and I had an exchange while talking about how good the score from Brokeback Mountain is (he still keeps saying it's a masterpiece of film scoring, but I agree that tastes are tastes). However, the fact that he (and only he) cared for that tune tells me that it wasn't so memorable, after all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He only thinks that because he actually noticed it!

[DarkLord89 0]

He only thinks that because he actually noticed it!

Again, I'm talking about great numbers, not just one or two guys. You know, I'm an animator in a youth club in my town, and when I referred to my "guess-the-score" games I actually talked about 50+, if not 100+, people.

And this guy actually is a great fan of Shyamalan, so he listen to JNH's scores (well, at least those from MNS's films), so he's not 100% newbie to the genre after all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And this guy actually is a great fan of Shyamalan, so he listen to JNH's scores (well, at least those from MNS's films), so he's not 100% newbie to the genre after all.

Sounds like a rank amateur in my book!

[DarkLord89 0]

And this guy actually is a great fan of Shyamalan, so he listen to JNH's scores (well, at least those from MNS's films), so he's not 100% newbie to the genre after all.

Sounds like a rank amateur in my book!

Yes, I think it's something between 70% and 95% newbie, it depends on how much he listens to those scores (though, knowing him, I think he leans toward 95% more likely than 70%...).

This doesn't change the fact that the majority of people I know still don't have a clue of how the theme from Brokeback Mountain sounds like.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like a theme from Horner's Apollo 13.

[DarkLord89 0]

Well, it surely doesn't make it as memorable as "Hedwig's Theme" or "He's a Pirate" (both themes that, either they're good or bad, have definitely earned a huge place in popular culture, just as "Star Wars", "The Lord of the Rings", "Rocky" or "Back to the Future" have).

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I have absolutely no idea what "He's A Pirate" sounds like, aside from the faux-RCP/MV themes I conjur up in my head to imagine what it sounds like. And it's not good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's a Pirate is just a re-use of a power anthem fanfare from Gladiator's The Battle, tarted up a bit.

I liked it a lot more in Top Gear then in the film it was composed/constructed for.

[DarkLord89 0]

I have absolutely no idea what "He's A Pirate" sounds like, aside from the faux-RCP/MV themes I conjur up in my head to imagine what it sounds like. And it's not good.

I'm the first to acknowledge that in its first incarnation this theme is VERY badly orchestrated, that its use during the scores (particularly the first one) is very messy to say the least (just like any other theme from that film), that some sections of that track sound too similar to "Gladiator" action scenes (I for one wasn't able to tell the difference between the two at first, and others here cannot even after multiple listenings), but simply pretending it almost doesn't exist is just near fanboy-ish attitude of the opposite direction than worshipping this theme as the very best swashbuckling theme ever written.

Oh, and the video Stefan posted is just another proof supporting my argument:

Pirates of the Caribbean fanvid to the brilliant song "He's A Pirate" from the movie itself. Just a quick recap of the movie, very fun, but no concept. All in the spirit of the coming movie!

**Ok, once and for all, this song is called "He's A Pirate," it is NOT a classical song (but it is done by an orchestra) and the composer is Klaus Badelt - NOT Hans Zimmer. I don't know why so many people make that mistake.**

This tune is remembered by average "amateurs", but it's not judged with full knowledge of what precedes it, and what its history is. So, all in all, it's a memorable tune, but this doesn't mean it's good.

Admittely, part of PotC 1 success at popular level is due to its score, no matter how good it is. It caught people's attention (for better or worse) just like the Raiders March did 27 years ago. This is why both tunes are successful, and I'll also say that the Raiders March is so popular nowadays (aside for Indy 4) because the original trilogy is still thrilling more and more people. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for other older popular themes, say CE3K (again, just taking into account "popular level" and the "newer generation" factors).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's not swashbuckling!

[Desplat13 1]

No indeed!

[paleo 63]

It's not swashbuckling!

True, particularly compared to something like CutThroat Island (I recommend "Setting Sail": that's swashbuckling, and, imho, much more appropriate to a pirate movie). But many people seem to disagree

[DarkLord89 0]

I know it's not swashbuckling, maybe I expressed myself badly.

Pretending that the original PotC score doesn't exist is not that much different from those who hail it as one of the very best swashbuckling scores ever written (I personally DON'T, I find better pirate music in Hook or CutThroat Island; PotC is just generic action music with nothing pirate-ish in it, apart maybe from Jack's cello theme). It's just the same close-minded attitude, only it is not directed IN FAVOUR of this score, but AGAINST this score. I think it's high time that we recognize the high popular success this scores have had and not blind ourselves with the assumption that "this music is utter trash and thus no-one will be remembering it in a short time". Again, there's some good in these scores, particularly about some nice themes. Such a shame they were badly handled as far as orchestration and usage (which is linked to the meaning of a theme in leitmotiv constructions) are concerned.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They deliberatly went against the typical Swashbucling style, which I can appreciate, yet what they produced instead was also a cliche.

[DarkLord89 0]

They deliberatly went against the typical Swashbucling style, which I can appreciate, yet what they produced instead was also a cliche.

How sadly true. And maybe one of the worst kind of cliches.

But... hold on... weren't we talking about JW and his evolution in style?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He's a Pirate is just a re-use of a power anthem fanfare from Gladiator's The Battle, tarted up a bit.

I liked it a lot more in Top Gear then in the film it was composed/constructed for.

Idiot!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

In response to DarkLord89....

If I may to bring to mind a saying from Quint....

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't think people know how to use the word nostalgia correctly.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Would "reverence" be a more accurate word for you?

[Ollie 1,059]

Well when you have something there is no need for nostalgia.

I don't have nostalgia for Williams' older works because I have them. What I have nostalgia for is the time I saw it, not the actual product. The friends, the theatre, the lobby cards...that's nostalgia.

The actual score & the film? No, I can watch/listen to those anytime I want.

[indy4 155]

Well when you have something there is no need for nostalgia.

I don't have nostalgia for Williams' older works because I have them. What I have nostalgia for is the time I saw it, not the actual product. The friends, the theatre, the lobby cards...that's nostalgia.

The actual score & the film? No, I can watch/listen to those anytime I want.

When somebody says a film/score is nostalgic, it is because it hold memories of the time they saw it.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

That is what he said, yes?

[Jacob 0]

He's a Pirate is just a re-use of a power anthem fanfare from Gladiator's The Battle, tarted up a bit.

I would go back to Drop Zone, actually. (1:28 of the video.)

[Neimoidian 14]

He's a Pirate is just a re-use of a power anthem fanfare from Gladiator's The Battle, tarted up a bit.

I would go back to Drop Zone, actually. (1:28 of the video.)

Exactly. And the cue title - Too many notes, not enough rests - tells it all

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hey, that's a revolutionary cue. Drop Zone and Backdraft essentially created trailer music.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

He's a Pirate is just a re-use of a power anthem fanfare from Gladiator's The Battle, tarted up a bit.

Wow, that is awful.

the composer is Klaus Badelt - NOT Hans Zimmer. I don't know why so many people make that mistake.

Because it's soulless?

[Ollie 1,059]

the composer is Klaus Badelt - NOT Hans Zimmer. I don't know why so many people make that mistake.

Probably because Zimmer actually composed the cue?

I know it's hard to tell them all apart because they're all so original.

[Neimoidian 14]

Hey, that's a revolutionary cue. Drop Zone and Backdraft essentially created trailer music.