John Williams' Three (or more) Periods

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I have a feeling that Manuel was exaggerating to compensate for similarly overzealous comments from the other side of the argument. But really, I don't find the Russian theme to be nearly as "cartoony" and brassy as the Nazi theme from Last Crusade, for example. It does have some bold iterations, but there are also several subdued ones where it comes off fairly evocative (like 1:28 in "The Spell of the Skull"). And its variations in "Ants!" are pretty raw and threatening, similar in a way to the Raiders Nazi motif. I don't know that one is necessarily better than the other, but I don't see "pleasant" and "cartoony" as the most accurate descriptions of the Russian motif.

[Henry B 50]

It may not be as silly as the Nazi theme in Last Crusade but it's worlds apart from the "evil" material in Raiders. But that's just it, there was no evil material. The bad guys didn't have to be announced with a fanfare.

[King Mark 3,625]

The thing is some MB members have stopped caring for Williams new scores a few years ago.

I'm not one of them

[indy4 155]

It may not be as silly as the Nazi theme in Last Crusade but it's worlds apart from the "evil" material in Raiders. But that's just it, there was no evil material. The bad guys didn't have to be announced with a fanfare.

Really? The opening of "The German Sub" sounds pretty evil to me...

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

It may not be as silly as the Nazi theme in Last Crusade but it's worlds apart from the "evil" material in Raiders. But that's just it, there was no evil material. The bad guys didn't have to be announced with a fanfare.

Maybe he was trying to compensate for the film's weaknesses. I should say that I certainly don't think Raiders' Nazi theme is "crap"; I've actually begun to enjoy it quite a bit more recently, especially in "Desert Chase." It pretty much kicks ass.

[Henry B 50]

What film's weaknesses?

[Delorean90 42]

Gimme the russian theme from KOTCS any day than the crap nazi motif from raiders. Period.

(i laugh at your response)

Unbelievable. Some people will just take anything from Williams as long as it's big and brassy - with no thought whatsoever to its musical function.

The Nazi motif from Raiders could be described as big and brassy too (maybe even moreso). I'd like to know why, in your eyes, the Russian theme is lacking since you kind of bring it up a lot.

Ray Barnsbury - who likes both

It's okay. I like the saxophone take on the theme in the unreleased part of "Jungle Chase."

Let me revise my description of "big and brassy." I should have said "anything with a pleasant, cartoony melody and lots of trumpets." The orchestral hits! "DA, DA, DA-DA-DA!" Cymbal crashes galore. Some people seem to love everything Williams writes in that style.

But then you have Manuel saying that the original Nazi theme in Raiders sucks. Why, Manuel, why? Because it doesn't have a nice, melodic arc? Did it ever occur to you that the Nazis in Raiders aren't the same as the comedians in Last Crusade?

Consider the definition of "pleasant" for a little while and maybe it'll hit you as to why people like it. I'm not saying it always has to be that way, but dude, Williams is good at it. What's the big deal? When that's the only thing people will take, I would say they should add to their palette, but there's nothing wrong with loving that stuff.

For the record, I love both Nazi themes and the Russian theme.

It may not be as silly as the Nazi theme in Last Crusade but it's worlds apart from the "evil" material in Raiders. But that's just it, there was no evil material. The bad guys didn't have to be announced with a fanfare.

Right, hence the music for the entrance of Toht and his gang in "The Medallion"; hence, the "evil" material at the start of "The Basket Game"; hence, the Nazi motif sounding at the arrival of the truckful of Nazis in "Airplane Fight"...

Williams relished that kind of stuff. He even talks about it in the featurette on the bonus features DVD in the boxed set from '03.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

What film's weaknesses?

Kingdom's (I was referring to your statement that Raiders' villains didn't need overly evil music). Since Williams, and other film composers, have often talked about scoring the aspects of a film that are not literally on-screen, I imagine that he wrote a more melodic, obvious "evil" theme for Kingdom to make up for a lack of truly threatening villains. I agree with Delorean though, that there was certainly intentionally over-dramatic villainous music in Raiders.

[Henry B 50]

I give up. I always talk myself into corners trying to justify what I hear. Here's my problem with the Russian theme: it's all over the place. Suspenseful ("Spell of the Skull"), light-hearted ("Jungle Chase" and "Finale"), intimidating ("Ants!!!"), and it's pretty much because of the film. Spielberg and Lucas couldn't decide if the Soviets were serious or comedic or what. Hell, they don't have much character... they're just... there. Where's the Nazi who shot Indy in the arm and then punched the wound? Where are Jim Roach's characters? Sure, there's Dovchenko, but he's a brick wall.

All I can say is listen to "Desert Chase" and "Jungle Chase" back to back.

[indy4 155]

Here's my problem with the Russian theme: it's all over the place. Suspenseful ("Spell of the Skull"), light-hearted ("Jungle Chase" and "Finale"), intimidating ("Ants!!!"), and it's pretty much because of the film. Spielberg and Lucas couldn't decide if the Soviets were serious or comedic or what.

The theme adapts, just like many themes. The Force's Theme has undergone billions of changes in style and mood, but nobody's complaining about that.

Hell, they don't have much character... they're just... there. Where's the Nazi who shot Indy in the arm and then punched the wound? Where are Jim Roach's characters? Sure, there's Dovchenko, but he's a brick wall.

What do you mean by "brick wall?" Dovchenko is just as intimidating as any of Roach's characters.

[crumbs 14,301]

Ants! is probably one of the highlight cues from KOTCS, and probably the most memorable of the "creepy crawly" cues in all four films. Infact, I daresay it is *the* most memoral. It isn't as if the first three had much more than dissonant atonality. The ants got a nifty motif which worked quite well with the variations on the Russian motif. One of Williams' best cues in years, in my opinion. (Probably aided by the fact this scene was one of the better ones in KOTCS).

[indy4 155]

I agree completely. "Ants!" and "Jungle Chase" are my favorite cues from KotCS. The former is just so friggin' intense.

[Jeshopk 8]

I find it pointless to point out such tiny differences in an artist's style. His style has not changed drastically, like Strauss or like Stravinsky did in their work. I really don't think there is a conscious evolution or even a significant one. The only reason he did more jazzy stuff early was that he was paying his dues and there was demand for it. The only reason there's less pastiche Romantic era sounding stuff now is because there's less demand for it. Let's not forget how stylistically similar Jane Eyre and Azkaban are - or Black Sunday and WOTW - and how Star Wars, Superman, etc were only so romantic because of Stanley Kubrick and 2001. It's a commercial art, and his stuff is obviously very similar still. Remember, lots of people don't really even like JAWS here. Is it really the music that was so good, or are people just looking at the past through rose colored glasses? I mean, the whole "Golden Era" of Williams myth is just people liking certain movies and recordings that have aged well - nothing to do with the music being better. Williams wrote music equal to any he's ever written in this decade, but I guess it has to age like fine wine to be appreciated to that extent. But let's face it. Only when everyone from the 80's is dead will there be a verdict.

[Ollie 1,059]

John Williams dropped A LOT of things going from TPM to AotC.

One could venture and say someone dropped Williams on his head prior to writing that drivel. Coming off TPM, it was just...wow...how can you do that?

Yeah something changed after TPM. Either Lucas decided the music wasn't important anymore or Williams lost interest in the whole project or decided to just score the film knowing his music would be butchered.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes TPM, despite it's flaws sounds like a genuine Star Wars score.

[Jay 37,287]

Here's my problem with the Russian theme: it's all over the place. Suspenseful ("Spell of the Skull"), light-hearted ("Jungle Chase" and "Finale"), intimidating ("Ants!!!"), and it's pretty much because of the film. Spielberg and Lucas couldn't decide if the Soviets were serious or comedic or what. Hell, they don't have much character... they're just... there. Where's the Nazi who shot Indy in the arm and then punched the wound? Where are Jim Roach's characters? Sure, there's Dovchenko, but he's a brick wall.

Great post Henry

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Yes TPM, despite it's flaws sounds like a genuine Star Wars score.

So its music is not generic action stuff from the late williams?

Good.

[Desplat13 1]

Yes TPM, despite it's flaws sounds like a genuine Star Wars score.

TPM was Williams and the whole production team trying to hark back to the old days. AotC was them moving in a new direction and not doing a great job of it. RotS was them again moving in a new direction but this time doing a wonderful job.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So its music is not generic action stuff from the late williams?

Good.

Alot of the actionmusic is actually not THAT interesting. Escape from Naboo is a highlight though, simply brilliant.

[Red 75]

Yes TPM, despite it's flaws sounds like a genuine Star Wars score.

TPM was Williams and the whole production team trying to hark back to the old days. AotC was them moving in a new direction and not doing a great job of it. RotS was them again moving in a new direction but this time doing a wonderful job.

That's a pretty good assessment.

[indy4 155]

John Williams dropped A LOT of things going from TPM to AotC.

One could venture and say someone dropped Williams on his head prior to writing that drivel. Coming off TPM, it was just...wow...how can you do that?

Yeah something changed after TPM. Either Lucas decided the music wasn't important anymore or Williams lost interest in the whole project or decided to just score the film knowing his music would be butchered.

Don't forget that AotC and RotS were scored during some of the busiest years of JW's entire career.

[Ollie 1,059]

That's not a very good argument to make.

[Jay 37,287]

Yeah something changed after TPM. Either Lucas decided the music wasn't important anymore or Williams lost interest in the whole project or decided to just score the film knowing his music would be butchered.

I think it's a little bit of all 3...

[indy4 155]

That's not a very good argument to make.

Those scores don't need an argument, they're both good enough on their own. I was just making an observation as to why they may not quite be as good as TPM. Though RotS is close.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well if you don't want to use argument then it's a poor reason, excuse, observation etc etc.

It doesn't matter how many scores a composer does in the year.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ennio Morricone did like 20 in the year he composed Once Upon A Time In The West.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Ennio Morricone did like 20 in the year he composed Once Upon A Time In The West.

horner and zimmer make several every year.

And dont they all end sounding the same?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

That's not a very good argument to make.

Those scores don't need an argument, they're both good enough on their own. I was just making an observation as to why they may not quite be as good as TPM. Though RotS is close.

no they are not. AOTC is the worst score of Johns more mature period, Rots is awful except for the music John borrowed directly from Star Wars.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And TESB.

[CJWilkie 0]

Yes TPM, despite it's flaws sounds like a genuine Star Wars score.

TPM was Williams and the whole production team trying to hark back to the old days. AotC was them moving in a new direction and not doing a great job of it. RotS was them again moving in a new direction but this time doing a wonderful job.

I think TPM had a good general "sound" to it - it sounds like Star Wars, though through a slightly different looking (hearing) glass. Duel of the Fates is a totally left field track that blows me away all the time too. Proof that Williams can score some serious poo.

The problem with Attack of the Clones was that it wasn't a serious movie...or it was difficult to take seriously when the leading romance was a whiney high-school one. Across the Stars is a beautiful piece of music...but then how do you score that against saccharine picnic scenes and reminiscences of school-days? And that was the leading plot point, against what, Obi-Wan doing some investigative work which isn't exactly all that dramatic. I love the Droid Invasion piece too, and wish he had made more of that.

Revenge of the Sith is a good piece of work considering what the film was like...though I wouldn't call it a "wonderful" job...