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Hook


Jay

Your thoughts on HOOK the score and movie?  

218 members have voted

  1. 1.

    • LOVE the score, LOVE the movie
      69
    • LOVE the score, the movie is decent
      109
    • LOVE the score, HATE the movie
      15
    • HATE the score, LOVE the movie
      0
    • HATE the score, the movie is decent
      0
    • HATE the score, HATE the movie
      4
    • the score is decent, I LOVE the movie
      0
    • the score and movie are both decent
      16
    • the score is decent, I HATE the movie
      9


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On 19/10/2022 at 7:18 AM, JTWfan77 said:

 

So technically you could just upload the three separate parts without the two film-ripped inserts and they should be fine (which I hope you'll do by the way as I miss being able to listen to this music without horrible volume dips).

Aha! Cutting them into 2 parts worked! I also amplified the recording session portions since they were somewhat quiet, as well as other tracks in the playlist that I've wanted to amplify since I added them to my edits a while ago.

 

 

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  • 3 months later...
9 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

I don't understand why anyone could hate it.

I'd hazard a guess that it's too grown-up for children, and too juvenile for adults. It falls in-between that wonderful time when children are developing, but still have that enchanting innocence about them.

The daughter is, easily, the best thing about the film. It's her utter belief in her father that grounds HOOK.

The film also marks the move away from strong mother-figures, and the start of strong father-figures emerging in Spielberg's films; a trend that finds its apex in JURASSIC PARK.

Don't get me wrong: there is a lot to admire about HOOK (sfx; cinematography), but it really is not the sum of its parts.

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On 31/01/2023 at 7:11 PM, BrotherSound said:

As popular as Hook is around here, I was wondering when someone would get around to mocking up this significant unheard bit.

In fact, the verse tune in this cue was a surprise to me. 


I also noticed how the role of Stick with me increased in the final versions of the cues. In addition to the 5M5, there's 8M6New Hooks Lesson (original is unknown?), and a small insert for 15M2 The End of Hook. Plus the opening of 5M6/6M1 Hook's Entrance may also be an insert (or some material cut)...

 

Regarding 5M5, I was drawn to the note at the end for the percussion "See P.B. End". That is, the song could have ended about the same as this cue.
Also, there are two anvils among this percussion, as if imitating the process of forging. 

 

And how understated is the beginning of the insert: JW in it already ignores the musicians in the frame, while in the original he didn't even skimp on the glissando of 4 trombones for Hook's ladies.

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Hoffman based his characterization on the British actor Terry-Thomas, who was very good at playing proper scoundrels.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Hook has serious issues. Rufio for one. And the whole banquet scene, minus the music. And Jack. And Hoffman's questionable accent. And good night Neverland.

The thing about HOOK is, it has some great ideas. When he saw the film, Nick Castle was horrified, at how much his script had been changed.

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24 minutes ago, ragoz350 said:

I also noticed how the role of Stick with me increased in the final versions of the cues. In addition to the 5M5, there's 8M6New Hooks Lesson (original is unknown?), and a small insert for 15M2 The End of Hook.

 

I don't believe the "New" designation in 8M6 New necessarily means the cue was revised. Williams is rather inconsistent with how he uses "New". Sometimes cues marked "New" are revisions, and sometimes "New" means that the reels have been revised, requiring a change to the numbering. It definitely seems to be the later in this case, because 9M3 The Banquet and 9M5 Cutting the Coconut are also labelled 9M1 New and 9M3 New on the sketches.

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Yes Spielberg heavily cut reel 8 and the beginning of reel 9 after spotting.

  1. Deleted the "Believe your eyes" scene
  2. Moved the "Goodnight Neverland" scene to reel 9
  3. Deleted Hook's tour of Pirate Town with Jack
  4. Deleted Peter's swordfight training (mostly, a portion kept as a montage later)
  5. Deleted Hook and Jack's rowboat scene
  6. Deleted the sequence of the Lost Boys painting Peter (mostly, a portion kept as a montage now seen earlier)

 

So the original Reel 8 would have been:

  1. 7M6/8M1    The Face of Pan
  2. 8M2    "Don't Try To Stop Me... Smee!"
  3. 8M3    Smee Steals The Show
  4. 8M4    Believe Your Eyes {Believe Your Eyes scene & Goodnight Neverland scene}
  5. Pick Em Up
  6. Pirate Town tour
  7. swordfight training
  8. rowboat

And the original reel 9 and start of reel 10 would have been:

  1. 9M1    Hook Lessons
  2. painting Peter & catapult scene
  3. 9M3    The Banquet
  4. 9M4    Cornucopia
  5. 9M5    Cutting The Coconut
  6. When You're Alone  
  7. 10M2    Stop That Clock!!

 

But in the final film, reel 8 is:

  1. 7M6/8M1    The Face of Pan
  2. 8M2    "Don't Try To Stop Me... Smee!"
  3. 8M3    Smee Steals The Show
  4. Pick Em Up {edited down}
  5. 8M4AB More Never Band (new cue that covers a new montage showing some of swordfight training, some of painting Peter, and the catapult launch)
  6. 8M6 New (old 9M1) Hook Lessons

And reel 9 and the start of reel 10 is

  1. 9M1 New (old 9M3)    The Banquet
  2. 9M2 New (old 9M4)    Cornucopia
  3. 9M3 New (old 9M5)    Cutting The Coconut
  4. When You're Alone {edited down}
  5. 10MA New (old 8M4)    Believe Your Eyes {but only the "Goodnight Neverland" part of the cue/scene}
  6. 10M2    Stop That Clock!!

 

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What’s the deal with the music that plays when Smee breaks out the red carpet right before Hook has Gutless put into the boo box? The music on the album is slightly different. 0:50 in this video, which for some reason won’t embed:(

https://youtu.be/8eZITdhMtmo

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16 minutes ago, Brando said:

What’s the deal with the music that plays when Smee breaks out the red carpet right before Hook has Gutless put into the boo box? The music on the album is slightly different. 0:50 in this video, which for some reason won’t embed:(

https://youtu.be/8eZITdhMtmo

 

It's just that the recordings preceding it were muted like Jay said. What you hear in the film is just the opening of a single take.

 

Also, I should mention that the leaked version is the correct take, not the LLL version.

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12 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The score has some very good parts, but as a whole it's less good.

 

It has that Temple of Doom effect on me, where I can happily listen to a handful of random tracks and love the hell out of the music, but sitting down and listening to the entire score is somewhat exhausting.

 

But there's no doubting both scores have some of the best music Williams ever composed.

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On 31/01/2023 at 7:36 AM, ragoz350 said:

Another thing to say is that the last third of the cue in the sketch is marked by shouts of "Hook!" that gradually become more frequent toward the end (it's in the insert as well).

Could this be the "Hook Hook Hook" vocal overlay from the leaked sessions?

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Sorry that I'm a bit late to the party, thanks very much for the mockup, it's very interesting. I wasn't even aware that the orchestrations for this cue had even leaked before. 

On 01/02/2023 at 6:44 AM, ragoz350 said:

I also noticed how the role of Stick with me increased in the final versions of the cues. In addition to the 5M5, there's 8M6New Hooks Lesson (original is unknown?), and a small insert for 15M2 The End of Hook. Plus the opening of 5M6/6M1 Hook's Entrance may also be an insert (or some material cut)...

 

This is very interesting. The thematic meaning of Stick With Me has always confused me a little, whether it was to act as a proper theme for Hook (with the more versatile motif present in 4M1 Hook is Back acting as additional melodic material), or a theme for Smee. There are lots of uses of this theme in the film that could go either way, but given these inserts, it pretty much confirms for me that Williams originally intended for it to be associated with Smee, and then, maybe at Spielberg's discretion (?), it was reworked to be used more in the film in association with Hook. It always seemed strange to me that Williams would want to use two different melodic ideas for one character anyway, I feel he is usually more resourceful (Edit: I now remember that Superman kind of fits this description), and that he would use the theme in association with both characters seperately, which isn't very good musical storytelling. The main 'non-insert' moment that I can think of that conflicts with this is when Hook threatens Peter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apjqPhzRG54), but I'm going to conclude that Williams is just using Stick With Me here since the Hook motif wouldn't have fit in such a satisfying way. A similar thing applies to Hook's Entrance - I don't think the Hook motif would have fit well over the shouts of 'Hook!'. I think with 8M6, Williams is just reprising the theme because Hook is enacting Smee's Plan from the 'Stick With Me' scene. There are a few moments that don't fit though, like when Jack is about to receive his earring. Do you guys agree? Hopefully I'm making sense.

 

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On 11/02/2023 at 2:34 AM, Pat_S said:

it pretty much confirms for me that Williams originally intended for it to be associated with Smee, and then, maybe at Spielberg's discretion (?), it was reworked to be used more in the film in association with Hook.


"Stick with me" has always been associated with Captain Hook. Originally, it was a song sung by Captain Hook to convince and to manipulate Jack to become a pirate. If the theme is important in 8M3 Smee Steals The Show (Smee's Plan) is because Smee have that idea in that scene. The reason the title is Smee steals the show, it's because in the original script (and I don't know if it was filmed), Smee prepares Captain Hook to go sleep and takes Hook costume piece by piece while he shares his idea. The end of that scene was with Smee dressed as Captain Hook admiring himself in a mirror. He literally steals the show, not only verbally.

 

The reason they replaced "Low Below" theme by "Stick with me" in the final cut is because the scene is now completely focused on the Hook. And not on Smee and the pirates anymore. Even if it is Smee who holds the hook, the main character of the scene is the Hook. The only shots left in the scenes focus on the hook, and the scenes where the prostitutes call Smee only serve to indicate to the viewers that the guy holding the hook is Smee.

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16 hours ago, Goldfingers said:


"Stick with me" has always been associated with Captain Hook. Originally, it was a song sung by Captain Hook to convince and to manipulate Jack to become a pirate. If the theme is important in 8M3 Smee Steals The Show (Smee's Plan) is because Smee have that idea in that scene. The reason the title is Smee steals the show, it's because in the original script (and I don't know if it was filmed), Smee prepares Captain Hook to go sleep and takes Hook costume piece by piece while he shares his idea. The end of that scene was with Smee dressed as Captain Hook admiring himself in a mirror. He literally steals the show, not only verbally.

 

The reason they replaced "Low Below" theme by "Stick with me" in the final cut is because the scene is now completely focused on the Hook. And not on Smee and the pirates anymore. Even if it is Smee who holds the hook, the main character of the scene is the Hook. The only shots left in the scenes focus on the hook, and the scenes where the prostitutes call Smee only serve to indicate to the viewers that the guy holding the hook is Smee.

Thanks for those details, was not aware of that. Where did you find the info about the song's original intentions? Is it on the forum somewhere? 

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On 31/01/2023 at 2:36 AM, ragoz350 said:

Made a mockup of the unreleased (and unrecorded?) part of the 5M5 Show Us Your Hook cue. This part was replaced by an insert using the song Stick with me, while the original continued to use Low Below
The cue apparently quotes material from the original song: there are notes in the sketch indicating to orchestrate some bits in the same way as in "P.B." (Playback), that is, in the demo of the song itself. Here are those notes:

See P.B. Bar 45 - 0:03 in video - orch. strings/woodwinds + accordion

See 261 of P.B. - 1:20 and 1:28 - orch. strings/woodwinds

See P.B. End - 1:28 - percussion.

 

Also, in the middle of the cue, a verse tune seems to be used (this melody can be seen in this photo).

The scene edit was different and longer (instead of a long shot at 1:05 in the video it should have been something else).   

 

I forgot to actually post commentary on this: GREAT WORK!  It was super interesting to hear a true, lengthy unrecorded idea for a score I love so much and otherwise know inside out and backwards.  I can see why everyone involved likely thought it made sense to score the Hook's travel with Low Below, and I'm sure played by the full orchestra with Williams conducting this would be a corker of a cue to have.  But even still, I can see why it was decided to redo it with Stick With Me, it just kind of makes more sense that way.  And the redone version has become a pretty iconic cue and scene, I think.

 

And I appreciate that you took the extra step and didn't just present the mockup, but figured out how to pair it with the film footage we have as well.  Great job :up:

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