David Coscina 3 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Okay, I love Memoirs of a Geisha but as I eluded to on another similar thread, I thought Goldsmith really captured the solemn musical character that is endemic in Japanese folk harmonies/melodies yet still managed to fuse it with some traditional Westernism that reflects the conflict between the US and Japan in Tora Tora Tora. I really dig the final cue which has some neat atonal lines that move against the Japanese theme. Really cool.Geisha to me is a mixed bag as far as authenticity. The fact that Goldsmith could employ Western or non-Japanese musical content worked because of the story. Like the mismash casting in Memoirs (a couple Chinese actors, Korean, Malaysian etc), Williams' score moves around a bit. There are some beautiful moments and I think it should have garnered him an Oscar for how well it worked with the film but I still must defer to Maestro Goldsmith on this one. I voted Williams in the other Goldsmith polls so I don't feel too badly about my decision on this one. Wish someone could re-record Tora Tora Tora in better quality like Goldsmith did with a couple Alex North scores...maybe Joel McNeely? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 783 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Geisha Geisha Geisha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 859 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Okay, I love Memoirs of a Geisha but as I eluded to on another similar thread, I thought Goldsmith really captured the solemn musical character that is endemic in Japanese folk harmonies/melodies yet still managed to fuse it with some traditional Westernism that reflects the conflict between the US and Japan in Tora Tora Tora. I really dig the final cue which has some neat atonal lines that move against the Japanese theme. Really cool.Geisha to me is a mixed bag as far as authenticity. The fact that Goldsmith could employ Western or non-Japanese musical content worked because of the story. Like the mismash casting in Memoirs (a couple Chinese actors, Korean, Malaysian etc), Williams' score moves around a bit. There are some beautiful moments and I think it should have garnered him an Oscar for how well it worked with the film but I still must defer to Maestro Goldsmith on this one. I voted Williams in the other Goldsmith polls so I don't feel too badly about my decision on this one. Wish someone could re-record Tora Tora Tora in better quality like Goldsmith did with a couple Alex North scores...maybe Joel McNeely? DaveYou sneaky devil, I just knew you were going to do that. Tora Tora Tora gets my vote.You do know Goldsmith recorded 4 cues from TTT along with most of Patton for Varese back in 1997?The album is ok, the TTT cues are somewhat lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Geisha Geisha Geisha!Taiko, are you Japanese? I would be curious to know what a Japanese born person thinks of these two scores and which one is more accurate. I love Japanese and Chinese music (and film) but I am not Asian. My wife is Japanese but she is Sansei so she does not have that much connectivity to her roots (except for cuisine which she cooks very well- unfortunately for my waistline) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 783 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Geisha Geisha Geisha!Taiko, are you Japanese? I would be curious to know what a Japanese born person thinks of these two scores and which one is more accurate. I love Japanese and Chinese music (and film) but I am not Asian. My wife is Japanese but she is Yonsei so she does not have that much connectivity to her roots (except for cuisine which she cooks very well- unfortunately for my waistline)Oh, no. Sorry if I got your hopes up. The name Taikomochi stems from my love of the Geisha score, as a Taikomochi is the male equivalent of a Geisha.But no, I'm not Asian. I would be interested as well to see what a Japanese person thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,284 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Geisha.Giacchino's Secret weapons has cool japanese tracks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Not really familiar with either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 73 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Not really familiar with either.Not with Memoirs? Oh my. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 783 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Not really familiar with either.Not with Memoirs? Oh my.It's amazing! You must familiarize yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 388 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Someone should start a poll about Goldsmith's best Asian-inflected scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 1,931 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Geisha, but my all time favorite "Japanese" score is Ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Geisha, but my all time favorite "Japanese" score is Rankinda hard to outdo Takemitsu seeing that he was Japanese. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 859 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm suprised TTT has gotten more than the votes Dave and I gave. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm suprised TTT has gotten more than the votes Dave and I gave. :cool:This board is too white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,602 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Geisha Geisha Geisha!Taiko, are you Japanese? I would be curious to know what a Japanese born person thinks of these two scores and which one is more accurate. I love Japanese and Chinese music (and film) but I am not Asian. My wife is Japanese but she is Yonsei so she does not have that much connectivity to her roots (except for cuisine which she cooks very well- unfortunately for my waistline)I am half Japanese, and I tell you, with the possible exception of "Going to School" (which sounds more Chinese), it's pretty much accurate. That is to say, it's not inaccurate. I would think so, especially since the musicians who played the traditional Japanese instruments like the koto and the shakuhachi were all Japanese... I'm sure they would have said something if it was totally inaccurate. And besides, didn't JW hire a researcher? Especially "Sayuri's Theme" and "Becoming a Geisha" sound Japanese in their simplicity. "The Chairman's Waltz" is just a valse triste, as JW himself said, it's not especially ethnical. Overall, though, the score sounds very Japanese, even to (modern) Japanese ears. I have seen Tora Tora Tora only twice, I think, so I am not as familiar with the score. However, I listened to the main theme again just now, and I have to say, it sounds very Japanese, too. However, somehow I don't find it as memorable or original. It does sound Japanese, but like Japanese music that's been done tons of times before... almost a cliche. You could almost add Japanese lyrics to the melody and you have a shomyo (traditional Japanese chanting). Click for an example. But that's just the impression I'm getting.I have to watch Tora Tora Tora again one of these days. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Not really familiar with either.Not with Memoirs? Oh my.It never did much for me. I consider Tora the bigger "oh my" because that's been around for many more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Geisha Geisha Geisha!Taiko, are you Japanese? I would be curious to know what a Japanese born person thinks of these two scores and which one is more accurate. I love Japanese and Chinese music (and film) but I am not Asian. My wife is Japanese but she is Yonsei so she does not have that much connectivity to her roots (except for cuisine which she cooks very well- unfortunately for my waistline)I am half Japanese, and I tell you, with the possible exception of "Going to School" (which sounds more Chinese), it's pretty much accurate. That is to say, it's not inaccurate. I would think so, especially since the musicians who played the traditional Japanese instruments like the koto and the shakuhachi were all Japanese... I'm sure they would have said something if it was totally inaccurate. And besides, didn't JW hire a researcher? Especially "Sayuri's Theme" and "Becoming a Geisha" sound Japanese in their simplicity. "The Chairman's Waltz" is just a valse triste, as JW himself said, it's not especially ethnical. Overall, though, the score sounds very Japanese, even to (modern) Japanese ears. I have seen Tora Tora Tora only twice, I think, so I am not as familiar with the score. However, I listened to the main theme again just now, and I have to say, it sounds very Japanese, too. However, somehow I don't find it as memorable or original. It does sound Japanese, but like Japanese music that's been done tons of times before... almost a cliche. You could almost add Japanese lyrics to the melody and you have a shomyo (traditional Japanese chanting). Click for an example. But that's just the impression I'm getting.I have to watch Tora Tora Tora again one of these days. Thanks for the input Josh. It's always great to get some informed (or perhaps enlightened) opinions about these types of things. I think that Goldsmith used the intervals in his Tora music that stem from Japanese folk melody more than Williams who I believe has said a couple times that he was influenced by Takemitsu. The interesting thing about Japanese music is that it has also been influenced by Western music idioms for quite some time. Listen to Ifukube or Ikuma Dan or Fumio Hayasaka and you will hear some really interesting cross-pollination of traditional Japanese scales/harmonies along with European orchestrations. I know Ifukube was influenced by Russian composers. It does beg the question as to what Japanese music really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,064 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 No World War II soundtrack has captured the idea of Japan during WWII better than Tora Tora Tora!It is somber, noble, and menacing all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,602 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 No World War II soundtrack has captured the idea of Japan during WWII better than Tora Tora Tora!It is somber, noble, and menacing all together.That might very well be true.That said, Memoirs isn't really about WWII. It's about geishas, and the war is only a backdrop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,064 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Yeah, but I don't think Geisha captures its subject matter as well as....say Tora Tora Tora. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,602 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Yeah, but I don't think Geisha captures its subject matter as well as....say Tora Tora Tora. You have seen the movie, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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