Prisoner of Azkaban vs. Memoirs of a Geisha

[King Mark 3,631]

PoA

Memoirs is nice but Sayuri's theme is a pretty weak theme by Williams standards .I wonder why he composed 3167 concert versions of it

[Matt C 452]

Williams's work in POA was simply amazing. One of the best post-2000 Williams scores composed -- and the film was very well-spotted.

MoaG -- it's beautiful in places, but like the cinematography, it tries masking the shortcomings of the film itself. I really do like it, but POA just has more breadth, spaciousness and overall more innovation to the way Williams writes.

Again, I pray that David Yates comes to his senses and asks Williams to give the HP series closure. If he could creatively challenge Williams the way Cuaron did, I think the result could even outdo POA. But enough of my babbling.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Luke, I love your avatar! Does that mean anything or did you just choose it randomly?

Its a drawing by drew struzan for a stamp about america's XX century achievements. This particular one was for the 'species recovery' as this species went out of endargement in america thanks to the peregrine fund.

Yes as Joe noted, I'm a bird enthusiast or amateur ornithologist, and the Peregrine is possibly my favourite bird. When i found the Struzan drawing, i had to use it as avatar

[Henry B 50]

MoaG -- it's beautiful in places, but like the cinematography, it tries masking the shortcomings of the film itself.

Yes, but it's one of the most effective marriages of picture and music in recent times. The score is the heart of the film.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Very true. And yet, it stands out beautifully on its own.

[Josh500 1,615]

It's Josh's world, we just stumble along as best we can.

[Henry B 50]

Very true. And yet, it stands out beautifully on its own.

That's true too. I was mostly commenting on the prominent role of the score in the film. Many recent Williams scores are great listens but unremarkable in their ability to accentuate the film.

[Datameister 2,041]

Sayuri's theme is a pretty weak theme by Williams standards .

Again, I did vote for POA, but I disagree about Sayuri's theme. Took me a while to really appreciate it, but the melody itself is really evocative. I especially like that version Williams and Yo-Yo Ma played together...

[Josh500 1,615]

I don't get this comparison at all.

These 2 scores are the best/most popular JW scores of the past 5 years.

Memoirs vs. Seven Years in Tibet would seem more logical.

There's no need to make a poll about Seven Years and Memoirs. I know which will win by a landslide.

Very true. And yet, it stands out beautifully on its own.

That's true too. I was mostly commenting on the prominent role of the score in the film. Many recent Williams scores are great listens but unremarkable in their ability to accentuate the film.

Yes, that's exactly what struck me when I first saw the movie in the theater.

You can actually hear/listen/enjoy the music while watching the movie. Certain tracks stand out especially.

Quite a few polls never make sense but it's not meant to be a comparison, you're just choosing which score you like better.

Exactly.

Sayuri's theme is a pretty weak theme by Williams standards .

Again, I did vote for POA, but I disagree about Sayuri's theme. Took me a while to really appreciate it, but the melody itself is really evocative. I especially like that version Williams and Yo-Yo Ma played together...

You mean Perlman, right?

Yeah, I love that too, but I think my favorite example of Sayuri's Theme is the whole "Becoming a Geisha" track. I think it is here that the theme is expanded greatly and really shines. I especially appreciate the very cool flourishes the strings do after the theme proper (at 0:52 is one such example).

Also, it's nice to have a very simplistic main theme by JW.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Yo-Yo Ma

[MSM 126]

I don't get this comparison at all.

Memoirs vs. Seven Years in Tibet would seem more logical.

But that one I already did.

[Jay 37,346]

These 2 scores are the best/most popular JW scores of the past 5 years.

I'd disagree with that

[Josh500 1,615]

These 2 scores are the best/most popular JW scores of the past 5 years.

I'd disagree with that

Good, but many agree with that.

[John Crichton 4]

These 2 scores are the best/most popular JW scores of the past 5 years.

I'd disagree with that

Good, but many agree with that.

I disagree with your agreement and agree with the previous disagreement.

[Josh500 1,615]

These 2 scores are the best/most popular JW scores of the past 5 years.

I'd disagree with that

Good, but many agree with that.

I disagree with your agreement and agree with the previous disagreement.

Instead of playing around, why don't you tell us which 2 scores from the past five years are YOUR favorites?

[Jay 37,346]

Favorite: POA and KOCS

Best: POA and ROTS

[JoeinAR 1,949]

ROTS is not a good score, not a great score, its a mediocre score, its not special except for the portions directly (and inappropriately) lifted from Star Wars which are great. Frankly its among the least of his scores of this decade which has been the least of his career.

[Datameister 2,041]

ROTS is not a good score, not a great score, its a mediocre score, its not special except for the portions directly (and inappropriately) lifted from Star Wars which are great. Frankly its among the least of his scores of this decade which has been the least of his career.

How do you objectively measure this? (And for that matter...which passages are directly lifted from Star Wars? :spiny:)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He doesn't... Joey IS objectivity.

[Datameister 2,041]

I'm aware of that.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

ROTS is not a good score, not a great score, its a mediocre score, its not special except for the portions directly (and inappropriately) lifted from Star Wars which are great. Frankly its among the least of his scores of this decade which has been the least of his career.

How do you objectively measure this? (And for that matter...which passages are directly lifted from Star Wars? :spiny:)

oh I'm sorry perhaps you're right after all, all JW scores are equal, they are all masterpieces. We cannot tell which is a better score by any measure. Memoirs and POA are exactly the same in quality. ROTS is exactly the same in quality as AOTC

ok maybe its not that bad

As for the 2nd part of your question why don't you listen to Star Wars and find out for yourself.

[Datameister 2,041]

oh I'm sorry perhaps you're right after all, all JW scores are equal, they are all masterpieces. We cannot tell which is a better score by any measure. Memoirs and POA are exactly the same in quality.

You're dodging the question and putting words in my mouth. Let me ask again. What criteria are you using to arrive at this apodictic truth that ROTS is objectively a mediocre score?

ROTS is exactly the same in quality as AOTC

ok maybe its not that bad

I, too, preferred ROTS over AOTC.

As for the 2nd part of your question why don't you listen to Star Wars and find out for yourself.

I have, and I'm sure I will again soon. It's one of my very favorite scores, just like it's one of yours. The difference between us is that I acknowledge that it's okay for other people not to like it. And if I didn't like it, it'd be cool if others did.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I'm fine with you liking it, thats great, but its not a great score, hell its not wholly original, so much was written in 1976/77.

as for how I tell ROTS is mediocre, I listen with my ears and compare to other better scores.

[Datameister 2,041]

I'm fine with you liking it, thats great

Thank you.

but its not a great score

That suggests that I am not justified in enjoying it as much as certain other scores.

hell its not wholly original

No piece of music is wholly original. ROTS uses some themes that were written for past films, but they are developed in new ways. A few passages are adapted directly from ESB and TPM, a technique I'm not particularly fond of. But simply pointing out that a score is "not wholly original" is kinda like pointing out that all it is is a bunch of notes. As for the originality of Star Wars, you may want to compare "The Dune Sea of Tatooine" to Stravinsky's "Le Sacre du Printemps", or his Imperial motif to one of the secondary melodies of Holst's "Mars." [EDIT: For clarification, I'm not one of the folks that insists Williams is a hack who does nothing but rip off other composers. Star Wars is a spectacularly original work, for the most part, as far as I can tell. But it's not wholly original.]

so much was written in 1976/77.

Again, I'm really curious where you're hearing this. I have the 2-disc SE soundtrack for Star Wars, as well as my own complete album for ROTS, and I've closely listened to both on many, many occasions. I don't recall any direct adaptations from material in Star Wars.

as for how I tell ROTS is mediocre, I listen with my ears and compare to other better scores.

That's how you can tell you don't like it. I'm asking about objective, undeniable attributes that make it inherently mediocre, not subjective and arguable attributes that make it less appealing to you.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

ROTS is exactly the same in quality as AOTC

So bashing, bashing, bahsing and it comes to this?

This was not your ROTS rating in 2005.

Or i did not understood what you were saying?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I'm fine with you liking it, thats great

Thank you.

but its not a great score

That suggests that I am not justified in enjoying it as much as certain other scores.

hell its not wholly original

No piece of music is wholly original. ROTS uses some themes that were written for past films, but they are developed in new ways. A few passages are adapted directly from ESB and TPM, a technique I'm not particularly fond of. But simply pointing out that a score is "not wholly original" is kinda like pointing out that all it is is a bunch of notes. As for the originality of Star Wars, you may want to compare "The Dune Sea of Tatooine" to Stravinsky's "Le Sacre du Printemps", or his Imperial motif to one of the secondary melodies of Holst's "Mars." [EDIT: For clarification, I'm not one of the folks that insists Williams is a hack who does nothing but rip off other composers. Star Wars is a spectacularly original work, for the most part, as far as I can tell. But it's not wholly original.]

so much was written in 1976/77.

Again, I'm really curious where you're hearing this. I have the 2-disc SE soundtrack for Star Wars, as well as my own complete album for ROTS, and I've closely listened to both on many, many occasions. I don't recall any direct adaptations from material in Star Wars.

as for how I tell ROTS is mediocre, I listen with my ears and compare to other better scores.

That's how you can tell you don't like it. I'm asking about objective, undeniable attributes that make it inherently mediocre, not subjective and arguable attributes that make it less appealing to you.

quite being pedantic, there are never any defined objective measure on any score, so by your reasoning all scores would be the same, and its not true. Because there is no objective measurement by your attempts at reasoning then you could say that AOTC is as good as ROTS, but you say its not. How do you know? What makes Rots better than AOTC? Turning your agrument against me back onto you might give you a bit of understanding. I wouldn't even dare talk about the technical aspects of music, I'm too ingnorant, and uncaring to go there.

And if you have listened to Rots and not heard Leia's Theme and Throne room, perhaps you don't have the same edition I have but Leia's theme and Throne Room are from Star Wars, which makes them the best part of the score, even though they have no place. Of course you can also hear Imperial march and thats from ESB and its better than any original material in ROTS and ROTS highlight Battle of the Heroes (a wholly inappropriate title too) is just terrible, its not worthy to stand against any of the great Star Wars themes.

[Ollie 1,059]

Let's not forget that totally awkward direct lift of "The Duel" from TESB into the Obi-Wan vs Anakin cue.

[John Crichton 4]

I disagree with your agreement and agree with the previous disagreement.

Instead of playing around, why don't you tell us which 2 scores from the past five years are YOUR favorites?

Sheesh, lighten up.

Revenge of the Sith, with PoA a distant second.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Let's not forget that totally awkward direct lift of "The Duel" from TESB into the Obi-Wan vs Anakin cue.

I would really enjoy the cue if if weren't for that terrible insert. It just starts to get good, and then BAM, Vader's throwing crap at Luke who's about to fall out a window. Totally distracting, which is too bad because I like that piece better than the actual concert arrangement.

[John Crichton 4]

It is distracting, I really wish it wasn't in the score. Supposedly there was a part of the duel where Anakin and Obi-Wan were Force throwing things at each other when Williams scored it.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

No its perfectly used, like the Klingon theme in First Contact, I don't understand where you guys are coming from.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

It is distracting, I really wish it wasn't in the score. Supposedly there was a part of the duel where Anakin and Obi-Wan were Force throwing things at each other when Williams scored it.

I wonder if it would be possible to do a decent sounding edit that omits the ESB material. Haven't heard the cue in a long time, so I can't say for sure.

[Datameister 2,041]

there are never any defined objective measure on any score

We agree thus far. But you consistently present your opinions about what you like as if they are the objective measures of what makes a score BETTER or WORSE.

so by your reasoning all scores would be the same

They're not the same, but none of them are inherently better or worse (unless there's something immoral about them, but that's a whole 'nother topic). All we have is personal preferences, and semi-objective observations about them that can sometimes back up those opinions.

Because there is no objective measurement by your attempts at reasoning then you could say that AOTC is as good as ROTS, but you say its not. How do you know?

I never said AOTC wasn't as "good" as ROTS. Read my post more carefully - I usually am pretty good about saying what I mean. I said that I preferred ROTS over AOTC. Not because it's better, but because there are things about it that make me enjoy it more. I can identify some of them, and I can't identify some of the others.

Turning your agrument against me back onto you might give you a bit of understanding.

My argument is that "good", "better", "bad", "worse", and terms like these aren't appropriate for serious use in musical discussions, because they imply objectivity, and they suggest that one person's taste can be superior to another's. If I turn that argument back on myself, I see that I have been consistently respectful of others' tastes and have not suggested that the music I like is "better" than the music I don't like. I'm practicing what I'm preaching, so to speak. And if I screw up, I expect someone to call me on it, in which case I will apologize and try to do better.

And if you have listened to Rots and not heard Leia's Theme and Throne room, perhaps you don't have the same edition I have but Leia's theme and Throne Room are from Star Wars, which makes them the best part of the score, even though they have no place.

Sorry about that, I did indeed forget about those being used in the end credits - I was thinking mostly about the score for the film itself. I don't like them being used in the score, either. (Although I enjoy the new variations of Leia's theme in the score itself.)

Of course you can also hear Imperial march and thats from ESB

True. But aside from that rather unfortunate use of the cue from ESB, it's mostly new (and sometimes very interesting) statements.

Battle of the Heroes (a wholly inappropriate title too) is just terrible, its not worthy to stand against any of the great Star Wars themes.

There you go again talking about whether the music is worthy or good or right. What I'm trying to say is that music can't be any of those things. It's just art, and you either like it or you don't, and either way is fine. (As for the title of the piece, I thought it was a crappy title too, until I read some of the books surrounding the movie's release - they explain stuff about Anakin and Obi-Wan being characterized as the two great heroes by people in the Republic and so forth. I forget the details, but after I read it, I suddenly had much more respect for the title of the piece.)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

its not art, its craft.

[Datameister 2,041]

craft: Skill in doing or making something, as in the arts; proficiency. See synonyms at art.

That was answers.com. Shall I explore a few other dictionary sites, or is my point proven?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no, I do not believe that all music is art, nor do I believe all film is art. But then again we come to the same objectivie/subjective argument. I believe John is a master of his craft, but not everything he creates is a work of art.

[Datameister 2,041]

no, I do not believe that all music is art, nor do I believe all film is art. But then again we come to the same objectivie/subjective argument. I believe John is a master of his craft, but not everything he creates is a work of art.

That's fine. You can have your own definition, as long as you acknowledge the common definitions used by most of the rest of the English-speaking world. But regardless, music exists to bring pleasure to the listener. Any given piece will bring pleasure to some listeners, and not to others. It's not a bridge that someone has crafted, where the point is to avoid crumbling into the river below, where it either works or it doesn't, where it's either a good bridge or a bad bridge. Music isn't like that.

I suppose if we had complete statistics of who derives pleasure from each piece of music, we could conclusively say which ones are better. But we don't, and we can't. Yet you do.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

like you I looked the definition up and my definition is derived from several. It is common to see it used besides myself. As the saying goes I don't know what art is but I know it when I see it.

I am not weak minded and can definitively say what is a better piece of music, you don't have to agree. MOAG was a better piece of music than Brokeback Mountain. I can say matter of factly (even though its my opinion with no stats to rely on) that Star Wars is a better film than say ROTS.

You admit you like ROTS better but lack the ability to say it is better than AOTC which it is, barely. Again no statistical data to back me up here.

[Datameister 2,041]

I honestly didn't expect to see a change, but it's at least reassuring that you admit you're only expressing your opinions, even though you present them as fact. In fact, in all likelihood, you actually agree with me to an extent, but your word choices aren't lining up. I guess it's an "agree to disagree" impasse.

[indy4 155]

Let's not forget that totally awkward direct lift of "The Duel" from TESB into the Obi-Wan vs Anakin cue.

I would really enjoy the cue if if weren't for that terrible insert. It just starts to get good, and then BAM, Vader's throwing crap at Luke who's about to fall out a window. Totally distracting, which is too bad because I like that piece better than the actual concert arrangement.

Agreed 100%.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

can anyone tell me if 'the garden meeting' trackname is supposed to be the meeting of sayuri and the chairman at the baron's garden or the meeting with the americans at the end of the movie in the hot springs, what seem to be in a garden too?

Do they say 'Garden Meeting' or a synonym, in the movie somewhere?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

can anyone tell me if 'the garden meeting' trackname is supposed to be the meeting of sayuri and the chairman at the baron's garden or the meeting with the americans at the end of the movie in the hot springs, what seem to be in a garden too?

Do they say 'Garden Meeting' or a synonym, in the movie somewhere?

I don't know where that beginning rendition of The Chairman's Waltz goes, but when Sayuri's theme kicks in, that's when you see her in the car approaching the Garden where she meets the Chairman at the Baron's place.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

can anyone tell me if 'the garden meeting' trackname is supposed to be the meeting of sayuri and the chairman at the baron's garden or the meeting with the americans at the end of the movie in the hot springs, what seem to be in a garden too?

Do they say 'Garden Meeting' or a synonym, in the movie somewhere?

I don't know where that beginning rendition of The Chairman's Waltz goes, but when Sayuri's theme kicks in, that's when you see her in the car approaching the Garden where she meets the Chairman at the Baron's place.

I know

The chairman part is played in the airport, with the silver DC. The other 'garden meeting' occurs afterwards.

Is this piece a full composition or a mixing job, or tracked in the movie? that's what i want to know, and if possibly it's more correct 'chronological place'.