How do you determine when a film is overscored?

[Henry B 50]

How do you determine when a film is overscored?

When music tries to enhance every frame of a movie, like the Indy films, for instance. Those who adore the Indy films probably don't believe there is such a thing as "overscoring".

Alex

Meaning everybody on this MB except you?

Do you think the Indy films are overscored? No, you don't. So, if these films aren't overscored, what movie is?! Hence, those who adore the Indy films probably don't believe there is such a thing as "overscoring".

Alex

Alex, you of all people ought to be able to approach diverse approaches to this. Is there only one way to spot a film? Could you assign a number to the proper music to silence ratio? Of course not. I don't think wall to wall scoring works for most films, and for the most part I think scoring needs to cut way, way back, but it works in certain settings. I think it works for Temple of Doom. I think it absolutely does not work for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. It's all about the interplay of direction, cinematography, editing... Bottom line: wall to wall scoring is occasionally viable. Occasionally.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I think it would be interesting to consider whether or a film can be under-scored, whether certain scenes might actually benefit from the infusion of music where there is none. Is The China Syndrome, which contains several scenes seemingly ripe for orchestral propulsion, "under-scored"? Or is it a case in point that film music isn't as essential as we like to think it is? I think the larger issue here is what it actually means for music to be "necessary" or "unnecessary" in a film.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No Country For Old Men is perfectly scored.

[Red 75]

Sometimes over-scoring (and for that matter, under-scoring) can be good. Hook is a movie that I think is over-scored, yet it totally succeeds in complimenting and pushing the film forward.

[Quintus 5,399]

No Country For Old Men is perfectly scored.

I wouldn't call it perfectly scored, but I would say the score is as effective as it ought to be.

[222max 1]

I think it would be interesting to consider whether or a film can be under-scored, whether certain scenes might actually benefit from the infusion of music where there is none. Is The China Syndrome, which contains several scenes seemingly ripe for orchestral propulsion, "under-scored"? Or is it a case in point that film music isn't as essential as we like to think it is? I think the larger issue here is what it actually means for music to be "necessary" or "unnecessary" in a film.

That's also an interesting discussion. I for one, would rather there not be any music in The China Syndrome since it would diminish the relevant aspects of the film and make it feel more like a typical thriller. But the 70's was a time when music was generally very well utilized. Take the French Connection for instance. There is music in that movie but it works very subliminally. There's a near documentary grittiness to the movie which gives everything a sense of realism. I remember someone saying that that classic scene of Gene Hackman chasing the train in his car should have been scored and I cringe at the very thought. The screeching of the train, the growl of the car's engine, and Hackman's mad, obsessive cursing worked better than any musical score ever could. If that scene were done today you can bet that there would be music all over the scene.

I would like to see a return to intelligent, less visceral uses of musical score.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Take the French Connection for instance. There is music in that movie but it works very subliminally. There's a near documentary grittiness to the movie which gives everything a sense of realism. I remember someone saying that that classic scene of Gene Hackman chasing the train in his car should have been scored and I cringe at the very thought. The screeching of the train, the growl of the car's engine, and Hackman's mad, obsessive cursing worked better than any musical score ever could. If that scene were done today you can bet that there would be music all over the scene.

Nicely said. But I would be interested in your opinion on Powell's contributions to the second two Bourne films and United 93, each directed by Paul Greengrass in his now trademark cinéma verité style. Can I correctly assume that you would decry these pictures as overscored?

[222max 1]

Take the French Connection for instance. There is music in that movie but it works very subliminally. There's a near documentary grittiness to the movie which gives everything a sense of realism. I remember someone saying that that classic scene of Gene Hackman chasing the train in his car should have been scored and I cringe at the very thought. The screeching of the train, the growl of the car's engine, and Hackman's mad, obsessive cursing worked better than any musical score ever could. If that scene were done today you can bet that there would be music all over the scene.

Nicely said. But I would be interested in your opinion on Powell's contributions to the second two Bourne films and United 93, each directed by Paul Greengrass in his now trademark cinéma verité style. Can I correctly assume that you would decry these pictures as overscored?

I actually admire how Powell scored the Bourne movies (as well as how he did The Italian Job remake). The Bourne movies have a quick-edit, almost montage style narrative which would seem somewhat disjointed without Powell's music there to tie it all together. But What the music seems to provide in this case is a sense of speed and rhythm rather than highlighting the drama. I think that was an effective approach for these movies. Just the same, some of the fights and chases could probably have been just as powerful without music.

Watch this clip from From Russia with Love to see how a scene which might have easily been scored works without music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YG25MNkdg0

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YG25MNkdg0

Still the best fight in a Bond movie ever.

Just wanted to mention that.

[John Crichton 4]

Nearly two pages into a thread about overscored films and no one's mentioned Lord of the Rings?

[Red 75]

Nearly two pages into a thread about overscored films and no one's mentioned Lord of the Rings?

Nope.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wall-to-wall, certainly.

Overscored....no, I think not.

[Jeshopk 8]

I have heard directors talk about overscoring, and usually the scores in their movies are terriblly distracting in their awfulness or just plain nonexistent and nonfunctional. This is like the age old "bombast" critique of Williams and the old wisdom "the only good film score is one you do not notice". It is all nonsense to try to be scientific about it. What works for half the population will sound awful for the other half. Down with test audiences, temp tracks, and all other scientific methods of determining what's "working". If a director can't communicate to or hire a good composer, it is his own damn fault. If the audience doesn't like it but the filmmaker and composer are happy, then to hell with the ones that don't like it.

[Henry B 50]

I have heard directors talk about overscoring, and usually the scores in their movies are terriblly distracting in their awfulness or just plain nonexistent and nonfunctional. This is like the age old "bombast" critique of Williams and the old wisdom "the only good film score is one you do not notice". It is all nonsense to try to be scientific about it. What works for half the population will sound awful for the other half. Down with test audiences, temp tracks, and all other scientific methods of determining what's "working". If a director can't communicate to or hire a good composer, it is his own damn fault. If the audience doesn't like it but the filmmaker and composer are happy, then to hell with the ones that don't like it.

Although as a working composer you must have encountered the unfortunate reality of the audience. If a film doesn't sell, films cannot continue to be made. I agree about temp tracks. If I end up in film scoring I'll vehemently avoid them.

[Datameister 2,042]

Nearly two pages into a thread about overscored films and no one's mentioned Lord of the Rings?

Overscored in terms of scope, certainly. In terms of quantity of music...I don't remember that being an issue for me, but I haven't spent all that much time watching the films.

[airmanjerm 78]

I think "overscoring" is very subjective, so I'm not going to get into that part of this discussion...

However, I think there's an interesting story related to this discussion - one many of you probably know, but if not, here goes:

When spotting the film "Psycho," Hitchcock instructed Bernard Herrmann to leave the murder scene of Janet Leigh in the shower completely unscored. Herrmann ignored those instructions, and wrote the infamous, shrieking string cue we all know. After hearing Herrmann's "suggested" cue for that scene, Hitchcock agreed that the music greatly enhanced the scene.

It is also interesting to know that the music for the shower scene is the only music in the entire score to not indicate "muted" strings.

Having that scene silent would have certainly given a completely different effect. I'd say that we would all agree it works better with the music, but it's not my first time visiting these boards. (lol)

[Datameister 2,042]

I think "overscoring" is very subjective, so I'm not going to get into that part of this discussion...

But that's the whole point. In spite of the attitudes of some members (i.e. personal opinion=fact), nearly every conversation on this board has strong subjective aspects, and it's most interesting when a variety of different perspectives are brought (respectfully) into the mix.

[A24 4,331]

Do you think the Indy films are overscored? No, you don't. So, if these films aren't overscored, what movie is?! Hence, those who adore the Indy films probably don't believe there is such a thing as "overscoring".

Do you honestly believe Raiders is overscored? As far as I'm concerned, TOD easily is, and TLC is not far behind...and I'm not too knowledgeable as KOTCS. But the first film has plenty of silent moments that work very well. The music is crafted to accentuate certain scenes, sequences, and moments. It was only after that that the art of spotting became a little confused for the saga.

To be honest, Raiders Of The Lost Ark is not an Indy movie.

I agree with you on TOD. That has to be the most overscored movie that I know of. When I saw it in theater, there were two things that annoyed me, namely, Short Round and the never-ending, hyperactive score that always was competing with the hyperactive images. It was one of my most terrible experiences at the theater.

Compared to TOD, Raiders Of The Lost Ark is like Lawrence Of Arabia.

Alex

[Jeshopk 8]

I have heard directors talk about overscoring, and usually the scores in their movies are terriblly distracting in their awfulness or just plain nonexistent and nonfunctional. This is like the age old "bombast" critique of Williams and the old wisdom "the only good film score is one you do not notice". It is all nonsense to try to be scientific about it. What works for half the population will sound awful for the other half. Down with test audiences, temp tracks, and all other scientific methods of determining what's "working". If a director can't communicate to or hire a good composer, it is his own damn fault. If the audience doesn't like it but the filmmaker and composer are happy, then to hell with the ones that don't like it.

Although as a working composer you must have encountered the unfortunate reality of the audience. If a film doesn't sell, films cannot continue to be made. I agree about temp tracks. If I end up in film scoring I'll vehemently avoid them.

The audience is not an unfortunate reality, but nor do most of them know what they will like or will accept. Any survey given to a test audience that asks them if they liked the music, they will just answer whether there were any pop songs they liked or any catchy drum beats. They largely do not notice any underscore, and may just say no because they do not like "classical" music, even though the score worked as intended for them. I work to please my clients and myself, not the whims of test audiences and commitees. I've never had to write for a test audience, but I have for committees, and the result is usually a watering down of ideas - music trying to be all things for all people. Of course I think of the audience when I write, but it is not an exact science, and it really goes back to thinking of myself and the client as the audience. Luckily for me there seem to be enough people who share my sensibilities that I can pretty much write freely.

Do you think the Indy films are overscored? No, you don't. So, if these films aren't overscored, what movie is?! Hence, those who adore the Indy films probably don't believe there is such a thing as "overscoring".

Do you honestly believe Raiders is overscored? As far as I'm concerned, TOD easily is, and TLC is not far behind...and I'm not too knowledgeable as KOTCS. But the first film has plenty of silent moments that work very well. The music is crafted to accentuate certain scenes, sequences, and moments. It was only after that that the art of spotting became a little confused for the saga.

To be honest, Raiders Of The Lost Ark is not an Indy movie.

I agree with you on TOD. That has to be the most overscored movie that I know of. When I saw it in theater, there were two things that annoyed me, namely, Short Round and the never-ending, hyperactive score that always was competing with the hyperactive images. It was one of my most terrible experiences at the theater.

Compared to TOD, Raiders Of The Lost Ark is like Lawrence Of Arabia.

Alex

I feel sorry that you missed out on the full experienced for that one, but for many other people the synergy in that film was unforgettable and amazingly entertaining. I am glad that Spielberg and Williams didn't ask anyone before they did what they wanted.

[A24 4,331]

I feel sorry that you missed out on the full experienced for that one, but for many other people the synergy in that film was unforgettable and amazingly entertaining. I am glad that Spielberg and Williams didn't ask anyone before they did what they wanted.

If Spielberg asked before he did what Lucas wanted, he wouldn't have to keep making excuses for Temple of Doom.

Where in your top 3 of favorite movies would you place it? Before or after Return Of The Jedi?

Shall we talk about all the experiences you are missing out on?

Alex

[Jeshopk 8]

I feel sorry that you missed out on the full experienced for that one, but for many other people the synergy in that film was unforgettable and amazingly entertaining. I am glad that Spielberg and Williams didn't ask anyone before they did what they wanted.

If Spielberg asked before he did what Lucas wanted, he wouldn't have to keep making excuses for Temple of Doom.

Where in your top 3 of favorite movies would you place it? Before or after Return Of The Jedi?

Shall we talk about all the experiences you are missing out on?

Alex

You assume my taste is limited just because I like Return of the Jedi and Temple of Doom? Perhaps my range of taste is just not as narrow.

If Spielberg embraced the darkness that Lucas intended instead of trying to lighten it up so much with comedy, ToD would be more even. But I love the way it came out regardless of how Spielberg disses it. Spielberg doesn't "have to" make excuses for it, because the public loves it. This is just the gunshy ET Special Edition updated spielberg talking. If only he would get on board, KOTCS could have had more of the danger and suspense we saw in Raiders and Doom.

[Ollie 1,059]

I think "overscoring" is very subjective, so I'm not going to get into that part of this discussion...

However, I think there's an interesting story related to this discussion - one many of you probably know, but if not, here goes:

When spotting the film "Psycho," Hitchcock instructed Bernard Herrmann to leave the murder scene of Janet Leigh in the shower completely unscored. Herrmann ignored those instructions, and wrote the infamous, shrieking string cue we all know. After hearing Herrmann's "suggested" cue for that scene, Hitchcock agreed that the music greatly enhanced the scene.

It is also interesting to know that the music for the shower scene is the only music in the entire score to not indicate "muted" strings.

Having that scene silent would have certainly given a completely different effect. I'd say that we would all agree it works better with the music, but it's not my first time visiting these boards. (lol)

However the opposite was applied to Torn Curtain, where Hitchcock instructed Herrmann to not score the brutal murder scene in the farmhouse and Herrmann went ahead and scored it. Unfortunately we know what the result was, although that wasn't the only reason for their split on the film.

Herrmann wrote a very aggressive piece for the struggle yet without music it does manage to work just as effectively.

[indy4 155]

How do you determine when a film is overscored?

When music tries to enhance every frame of a movie, like the Indy films, for instance. Those who adore the Indy films probably don't believe there is such a thing as "overscoring".

Alex

Meaning everybody on this MB except you?

Do you think the Indy films are overscored? No, you don't. So, if these films aren't overscored, what movie is?! Hence, those who adore the Indy films probably don't believe there is such a thing as "overscoring".

Alex

Overscored isn't just a matter of writing x amount of music. It's whether the music becomes uneffective due to its amount. And, IMO, the music of the Indy films never detract from the actual onscreen images.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually there are two sequences in KOTCS where the scenes are overscored. The first one is the warehouse sequence where they are following the gun powder, the music is too driven and action oriented for the scene. Since they are just walking no music might have worked better or something more subdued perhaps.

The second is when the temple opens up, either the music is mixed too loud or Williams went over the top, trying to give it more oomf than the scene needed. Personally I think the scene didn't need that grand of a statement, plus it begins with the darker WOTW styled music so perhaps it would have been fitting to continue down that path.

[Jeshopk 8]

Actually there are two sequences in KOTCS where the scenes are overscored. The first one is the warehouse sequence where they are following the gun powder, the music is too driven and action oriented for the scene. Since they are just walking no music might have worked better or something more subdued perhaps.

The second is when the temple opens up, either the music is mixed too loud or Williams went over the top, trying to give it more oomf than the scene needed. Personally I think the scene didn't need that grand of a statement, plus it begins with the darker WOTW styled music so perhaps it would have been fitting to continue down that path.

I loved those parts in the theatre, because the music added so much to the drama. If you're not into the movie in the first place, any music that makes a statement is going to seem out of place.

[Ollie 1,059]

Of course the replies in this thread are as typical as the poll results.

[Datameister 2,042]

Of course the replies in this thread are as typical as the poll results.

Case in point.

[Ollie 1,059]

No, no one has the guts to admit it's possible for Williams to overscore.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's possible for Williams to overscore.

[Ollie 1,059]

Apparently not here.

[John Crichton 4]

It's possible for Williams to overscore.

It's possible for Williams to overscore, all together.

[Jeshopk 8]

No, no one has the guts to admit it's possible for Williams to overscore.

Well, we all have scenes that we don't love the scoring (The couples argument from AI is my most hated moment of Williams scoring), but I think it depends on how you feel about the scene. For me, just thinking about Spielberg writing that hackneyed scene made me pissed and so the music seemed totally wrong. It's not like it is an exact science. What worked perfectly for me as an audence member failed for you. How could they please us both? Without those parts I would think KOTCS wasn't bold enough. With those parts, you think they are overscored. Admit? Admit what?

[Ollie 1,059]

It's possible for Williams to overscore.

It's possible for Williams to overscore, all together.

It's possible for Williams to overscore.......

[Datameister 2,042]

It's possible for Williams to overscore. When was there a unanimous consensus to the contrary?

[Morlock 11]

He has. The Terminal is overscored. So is Amistad (for whish JW got some bad notices). It's not necasserily the composer's fault, but still.

[Jessie Lohner 0]

Some people always claim anything! Sure it's possible for JW to overscore, for him to write bad music, for him to mess up every scene, for him to ruin an entire movioe...

You just need to ask the right people to get the wrong responses. But I think his popularity and awards and recognitions speak for themselves. Most of the time, he does everything right. Not only right, but great, actually.

[Datameister 2,042]

I think his popularity and awards and recognitions speak for themselves.

I don't. I think his music speaks for itself. Luckily, they say pretty much the same thing...and sometimes, the music says something even better.

[Jessie Lohner 0]

I think his popularity and awards and recognitions speak for themselves.

I don't. I think his music speaks for itself. Luckily, they say pretty much the same thing...and sometimes, the music says something even better.

Sure! The music speaks for itself. I think so too. But apparently not for everybody...

[Quintus 5,399]

Most of the time, he does everything right. Not only right, but great, actually.

Exactly. It's just that some here have trouble accepting that Williams actually makes mistakes at all, which is hilarious and sad at the same time.

[Josh500 1,615]

Most of the time, he does everything right. Not only right, but great, actually.

Exactly. It's just that some here have trouble accepting that Williams actually makes mistakes at all, which is hilarious and sad at the same time.

JW doesn't make mistakes. Sometimes he makes bad choices, that's all. But even that is a matter of opinion.

[Quintus 5,399]

OKAAAY!

What's the difference between a mistake and a bad choice? Please explain.

Actually, don't.

[Josh500 1,615]

OKAAAY!

What's the difference between a mistake and a bad choice? Please explain.

Actually, don't.

Look it up! What am I? Your (part-time) teacher?

But I already did explain it: "But even that is a matter of opinion."

[Datameister 2,042]

mistake: An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.

Sounds like a bad choice to me.

[Josh500 1,615]

mistake: An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.

Sounds like a bad choice to me.

A mistake is always a bad choice. It's outright wrong.

A bad choice doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake.

[Quintus 5,399]

Oh Jesus...

Does anyone have an old Speak and Spell to hand? It worked wonders for E.T.

[Datameister 2,042]

A mistake is always a bad choice. It's outright wrong. A bad choice doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake.

That depends entirely on which of the definitions you're using. A mistake can simply be a bad choice, even an intentional one, if you're using one of the definitions.

I'm sure John Williams even occasionally makes honest-to-goodness mistakes (i.e. the unintentional kind), but it's got to be rare. He's got orchestrators, musicians, directors, and his own two ears informing him if anything hasn't gone according to plan.

[Josh500 1,615]

A mistake is always a bad choice. It's outright wrong. A bad choice doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake.

That depends entirely on which of the definitions you're using. A mistake can simply be a bad choice, even an intentional one, if you're using one of the definitions.

I'm sure John Williams even occasionally makes honest-to-goodness mistakes (i.e. the unintentional kind), but it's got to be rare. He's got orchestrators, musicians, directors, and his own two ears informing him if anything hasn't gone according to plan.

This is music. It's art.

You can't really make mistakes here (unless it's technical, of course). There is no right or wrong. EVERYTHING is a matter of opinon. So if many people disagree with a choice JW made, then it's considered a "bad choice." But that doesn't necessarily make it a mistake.

[Datameister 2,042]

This is music. It's art.

You can't really make mistakes here (unless it's technical, of course). There is no right or wrong. EVERYTHING is a matter of opinon. So if many people disagree with a choice JW made, then it's considered a "bad choice." But that doesn't necessarily make it a mistake.

If more people on JWfan understood this, I wouldn't have taken a year off from this forum.

(However, with the unintentional definition of "mistake" - it is possible for John Williams to do something he didn't mean to do, in which case it'd be a mistake, regardless of whether or not we think it's a bad choice.)

[Josh500 1,615]

(However, with the unintentional definition of "mistake" - it is possible for John Williams to do something he didn't mean to do, in which case it'd be a mistake, regardless of whether or not we think it's a bad choice.)

Sure, that's always possible, I give you that. Even JW is human, after all.

But we have no way of knowing for sure what JW intended or not, do we? And anyway, I'm sure this is EXTREMELY rare...

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Also, JURASSIC PARK is a SF film.