How do you determine when a film is overscored?

[Josh500 1,615]

Also, JURASSIC PARK is a SF film.

It is. But not a B-movie.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Darn, I even forgot what the argument was about.

It is a B-movie though.

[Ollie 1,059]

It's about Williams is a god and can do no wrong.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I don't need to hear notes everytime a ship lands or someone walks into a room...

And a good storyteller would be sure to cut these moments out, but that's not what this discussion is about.

Sorry to nitpick. Hope you dont get this personal. I would have answered the same if any other being in the world had said that.

Star Wars features one long useless landing, that of the Milenium Falcon first arrival on Yavin. It's like three takes (and possibly extended with more takes on the SE... ) of the falcon moving from close to the camera to far away, same swooshing sound repeated. And without any interesting great landing fanfare Williams could have done in his 'prime' years.

George Lucas was considered a great storyteller in 1977, though.

About on topic, i think overscoring is bad, but i prefer an overscored movie and then leave unused cues. Great listening experiences like ESB would have been lost if they did pick unscored scenes from the very beggining.

[Ollie 1,059]

I have no problem with a composer writing & recording more music than needed for the film and releasing it on CD.

The point is not to put it all in the film.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Star Wars features one long useless landing, that of the Milenium Falcon first arrival on Yavin. It's like three takes (and possibly extended with more takes on the SE... ) of the falcon moving from close to the camera to far away, same swooshing sound repeated. And without any interesting great landing fanfare Williams could have done in his 'prime' years.

It's not useless. It serves the purpose of showing our heroes arriving at Yavin. It's a necessary sequence, and a fantastic example of how great Star Wars can be without John Williams.

And that "swooshing sound" is the engines of the Millennium Falcon. Why should it sound any different?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

However the opposite was applied to Torn Curtain, where Hitchcock instructed Herrmann to not score the brutal murder scene in the farmhouse and Herrmann went ahead and scored it. Unfortunately we know what the result was, although that wasn't the only reason for their split on the film.

Herrmann wrote a very aggressive piece for the struggle yet without music it does manage to work just as effectively.

Herrmann also wrote a piece for the crossroads scene in North By Northwest.

I saw the scene at Ubeda last year without the score, as it is in the finished film, and with the unused score.

Herrmann's piece is very effective, but the scene works better unscored, because the absence of music increases the tension.

Hitch knew what he was doing.

[Josh500 1,615]

I'm sure George Lucas is convinced every scene has to have music... except for a few exceptions.

But I'm fine with that. With films like Star Wars, it works, at least.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Star Wars features one long useless landing, that of the Milenium Falcon first arrival on Yavin. It's like three takes (and possibly extended with more takes on the SE... ) of the falcon moving from close to the camera to far away, same swooshing sound repeated. And without any interesting great landing fanfare Williams could have done in his 'prime' years.

It's not useless. It serves the purpose of showing our heroes arriving at Yavin. It's a necessary sequence, and a fantastic example of how great Star Wars can be without John Williams.

And that "swooshing sound" is the engines of the Millennium Falcon. Why should it sound any different?

Dude you did not get my point? I'm not saying that they suddenly appear on the surface of Yavin, but just one shot of the falcon in space arriving to Yavin and one shot of the Falcon landing on Yavin is enough. The rest could be considered 'useless'

As it is, you notice (i did) something is wrong or too long when you hear the same sound (and doppler) effect several times since there is three (i think) shots of the falcon in space arriving to yavin, and then the landing on the surface which has two shots too i think.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Star Wars features one long useless landing, that of the Milenium Falcon first arrival on Yavin. It's like three takes (and possibly extended with more takes on the SE... ) of the falcon moving from close to the camera to far away, same swooshing sound repeated. And without any interesting great landing fanfare Williams could have done in his 'prime' years.

It's not useless. It serves the purpose of showing our heroes arriving at Yavin. It's a necessary sequence, and a fantastic example of how great Star Wars can be without John Williams.

And that "swooshing sound" is the engines of the Millennium Falcon. Why should it sound any different?

Dude you did not get my point? I'm not saying that they suddenly appear on the surface of Yavin, but just one shot of the falcon in space arriving to Yavin and one shot of the Falcon landing on Yavin is enough. The rest could be considered 'useless'

As it is, you notice (i did) something is wrong or too long when you hear the same sound (and doppler) effect several times since there is three (i think) shots of the falcon in space arriving to yavin, and then the landing on the surface which has two shots too i think.

I got your point, I just don't agree. That scene would have seemed too brief with just two shots, and would have had no rhythm. Hence why, in an editing sense, those shots are not useless.

As for the sound, I honestly don't get what you're talking about. You hear the sound of the engines everytime the Falcon flies by. Makes sense to me. Again, it also helps with the rhythm of the sequence, since it's about you only sound you hear.

[222max 1]

Star Wars features one long useless landing, that of the Milenium Falcon first arrival on Yavin. It's like three takes (and possibly extended with more takes on the SE... ) of the falcon moving from close to the camera to far away, same swooshing sound repeated. And without any interesting great landing fanfare Williams could have done in his 'prime' years.

It's not useless. It serves the purpose of showing our heroes arriving at Yavin. It's a necessary sequence, and a fantastic example of how great Star Wars can be without John Williams.

And that "swooshing sound" is the engines of the Millennium Falcon. Why should it sound any different?

Dude you did not get my point? I'm not saying that they suddenly appear on the surface of Yavin, but just one shot of the falcon in space arriving to Yavin and one shot of the Falcon landing on Yavin is enough. The rest could be considered 'useless'

As it is, you notice (i did) something is wrong or too long when you hear the same sound (and doppler) effect several times since there is three (i think) shots of the falcon in space arriving to yavin, and then the landing on the surface which has two shots too i think.

Lucas is a pretty artless director. A great visionary but hardly a good film maker. He is literal to a fault and he seems to think he has to illustrate EVERYTHING to his audience. Cases in point; In TESB when Luke is hanging upside down in the snow creature's cave. For whatever reasons, budget or technology limitations, Kirschner hardly shows the monster except for a few brief scenes of him coming towards Luke and then rushing forward before Luke cuts his arm off. In Lucas' revised version he shows the monster sitting there grubbing away on the Taun-Taun, then full-body shots of him getting up and when Luke slashes the arm off he we get to see that cheesy shot of the monster writhing around with a bloody stump. What was wrong with the scene as it was originally done?

Then later, after Luke falls down the air shaft in Cloud City, Lucas has to show us Vader walking down the hall, then getting on his shuttle, then flying away from the planet, then flying toward his ship, then the ship landing and Vader walking off the ship. How dumb does Lucas think we are? Not only are these cuts unnecessary but they totally disrupt the momentum of the escape of the Falcon from the TIE fighters. Talk about ruining a good thing.

In the Prequels, Lucas was this way about nearly every narrative development... that's why we have to see every ship arrival and departure in real time. But this ham-fisted method of story-telling also explains why he put music everywhere. He feels he has to explain everything to us.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Star Wars features one long useless landing, that of the Milenium Falcon first arrival on Yavin. It's like three takes (and possibly extended with more takes on the SE... ) of the falcon moving from close to the camera to far away, same swooshing sound repeated. And without any interesting great landing fanfare Williams could have done in his 'prime' years.

It's not useless. It serves the purpose of showing our heroes arriving at Yavin. It's a necessary sequence, and a fantastic example of how great Star Wars can be without John Williams.

And that "swooshing sound" is the engines of the Millennium Falcon. Why should it sound any different?

Dude you did not get my point? I'm not saying that they suddenly appear on the surface of Yavin, but just one shot of the falcon in space arriving to Yavin and one shot of the Falcon landing on Yavin is enough. The rest could be considered 'useless'

As it is, you notice (i did) something is wrong or too long when you hear the same sound (and doppler) effect several times since there is three (i think) shots of the falcon in space arriving to yavin, and then the landing on the surface which has two shots too i think.

I got your point, I just don't agree. That scene would have seemed too brief with just two shots, and would have had no rhythm. Hence why, in an editing sense, those shots are not useless.

As for the sound, I honestly don't get what you're talking about. You hear the sound of the engines everytime the Falcon flies by. Makes sense to me. Again, it also helps with the rhythm of the sequence, since it's about you only sound you hear.

That counts as a sustained note... not much rythm. There is not action that could be considered rythm either...

Of course the the Falcon has to have engine sound everytime it appears (well in Fact it shouldn't! ) but the arrival to Yavin wouldnt have to be too brief. Who said the two shots needed to be the same lenght and they are now, but with some of the shots cut? Just one slightly extened arrival to yavin, seeing the green moon 'sunrising' over the Yavin, and the shot of the soldier scaning the ship, and possibly one of the falcon just langing would be great.

Anyway a rythmical planet arrival could be 'Return to Naboo' from TPM now thats a cool scored landing

In the Prequels, Lucas was this way about nearly every narrative development... that's why we have to see every ship arrival and departure in real time. But this ham-fisted method of story-telling also explains why he put music everywhere. He feels he has to explain everything to us.

Yet alot of people ask 'Why did indy had to return the Crystal Skull?'

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You just hate the Prequels in general.

you are both incapable and unwilling to hear any warrented constructive critcism of the Prequels.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I have yet to hear non-destructive criticism of the prequels from the Big 3

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It's about Williams is a god and can do no wrong.

Yes. Him, Michael Giacchino and Jerry Goldsmith's ghost are the Holy Trinity.

Awesomeness!

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

It's about Williams is a god and can do no wrong.

Yes. Him, Michael Giacchino and Jerry Goldsmith's ghost are the Holy Trinity.

Awesomeness!

AMEN

[Red 75]

Where is James Newton Howard in that equation?

[Ollie 1,059]

He's losing points by working with Zimmer.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He's losing points by working with Zimmer.

He even moved his studio right next to RCP

[Ollie 1,059]

Well he's definately off now.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You do realize that they have always been friends, right? They just have never worked together until now. Howard has his share of bad synthy scores like Dreamcatcher and Freedomland.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes, I've known for about 9 or 10 years. I've been doing this soundtrack thing for awhile you know.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Dude you did not get my point?

Always ask yourself that question before asking it to others.

I'm not saying that they suddenly appear on the surface of Yavin, but just one shot of the falcon in space arriving to Yavin and one shot of the Falcon landing on Yavin is enough. The rest could be considered 'useless'

As it is, you notice (i did) something is wrong or too long when you hear the same sound (and doppler) effect several times since there is three (i think) shots of the falcon in space arriving to yavin, and then the landing on the surface which has two shots too i think.

You do not seem to take into account that the landing on Yavin takes place after a string of action set pieces, which underline the point that the protagonists are never really out of danger. Furthermore, it takes place before a big halt in the film's pace, needed to make room for a hefty exposition scene. We not only need to see the Falcon landing, we need to see it do so slowly, so that we know we are out of danger now and moving on to a different part of the plot. Star Wars has many, many flaws, but the editing is not one of them.

In contrast, the landings in the Prequels are thrown in everytime, inside the narrative, a ship actually lands -- regardless of how much we need to see it to follow what's going on (both plot and emotion-wise). That, and the invariably over-the-top majestic fanfares that accompany them only makes them interchangeable from one film to the next, from one scene to the other. And "interchangeable" is not a good friend of drama.

In the Prequels, Lucas was this way about nearly every narrative development... that's why we have to see every ship arrival and departure in real time. But this ham-fisted method of story-telling also explains why he put music everywhere. He feels he has to explain everything to us.

Yet alot of people ask 'Why did indy had to return the Crystal Skull?'

I know you say this as a joke, but since you're pushing it... The excuse we were given (the skull told him to) could lead Indy to do pretty much anything. Why and how the skull got lost in the first place and why the other skulls miss it so much are explanations that get muddled through the morass of insignficant plot points made in the first half of the picture.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I am merely curious when I ask this question, Elmo Lewis: what do you think "Star Wars'" "many, many flaws" are? I have never really heard someone rationally critique the film, so I just want to know.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

It's been almost ten years since I last saw it, but... I don't like most of the dialogue, which is a big problem. Also, most of the acting leaves a lot to be desired. The point-and-shoot direction allowed Lucas to compose some achieved shots, but it does get a tad boring if you see the film from a merely technical point of view.

However, I can't deny that this gave the film a naive tone that boosted the "fairy tale" element, and made it resonate more with people's imagination. Forgiven (and essential, in a way, to the tone of the film) as they may be, they are still flaws.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Ah, okay. So did you like "Star Wars Episode V: Empire Strikes Back" more?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Absolutely. Particularly, Yoda was a great addition. The "lifting the X-Wing" scene is my favorite bit from the saga.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I agree with every sentiment listed in your post.

[Datameister 2,037]

I gotta say - and I say this with love, as I do consider the prequels a guilty pleasure - out of all the things one could complain about in regards to the PT, the fact that it shows ships landing and taking off never occurred to me.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Why do you consider it a "guilty" pleasure? And I never thought about ships coming and going, either....

[Datameister 2,037]

Well, I can see and agree with many - perhaps most - of the problems a lot of people have with them. The acting, writing, plot development, and humor all present serious problems in some parts of those three films, IMO. Yet the DVDs still sit on my desk, and I enjoy them when I occasionally watch them, and I've invested more time and emotion in them than they probably deserve, if I were to approach it from an objective standpoint.

[Henry B 50]

I gotta say - and I say this with love, as I do consider the prequels a guilty pleasure - out of all the things one could complain about in regards to the PT, the fact that it shows ships landing and taking off never occurred to me.

Hmm, you're dismissing it because "ships landing and taking off" sounds like a silly complaint at face value. What the complaint actually is, however, is that the narrative is sluggish and too literal. Ship scenes contribute to this problem.

[Datameister 2,037]

I disagree about them contributing to the problem, at least in terms of my viewing experience. The things that interfere with the flow of the story for me are more typically the awkward, extended conversation scenes in which the characters have no ostensible reason for being where they are.

[Henry B 50]

No arguments there.

[Bowie 45]

I think the real question is whether it's possible to overanalyze

[Datameister 2,037]

I think the real question is whether it's possible to overanalyze

Hmm...I'll have to think about that for a while...

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

Personally, I like long absences of dramatic score, which is one of the reasons why I like the score-and the film-of "Munich" so much, as there are long periods of no music, especially for a Speilberg film. I agree that Episodes "I", "II", and "III" are vastly overscored, and that more effective music editing could have helped to make the films better, although, in the case of "I", I rather doubt it...If you want a good example of when to introduce a piece of score, watch "Ice Station Zebra". The part when the sub. is descending under the ice is a perfect example of letting the claustrophobia of the scene play out without dramatic score, only bringing music near the end of the scene.

[Kevin 22]

I feel that if Yared's Troy was actually in the film, it would have been overscored to the film. When I listen to Yared's, it's sounds like it sound be a massive epic black/white film Lord of the Rings style. The problem is the final Troy was lame with a cartoony Brad Pitt running around cutting people's heads off.

[indy4 155]

You know, I saw E.T. the other day, and I must say that the scene where Elliot's mother goes up and sees E.T. with all the stuffed animals would have been much more effective without the music.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Personally I tend to dislike unscored scenes in an action/adventure movie. I admit sometimes it does work fine and, for example with dialog scenes, music is not really required at all. But then sometimes there's these "sound effects"-only action scenes that just seem totally uninteresting to me until the music starts. A good example would be the pod race in Star Wars Episode I. There's this exciting race going on, but it just feels totally boring to me. Until the music starts and then suddenly it's exciting to me. I wished there would've been music in the whole scene. Of course I'd much prefer to have the music written for the scene in there. I hate tracking.

[Delorean90 42]

A few years ago I watched AOTC for the first time in a while, and I hadn't realized just how boring the arena monster battle was without "The Arena" in it.

[Trent B 337]

Personally I tend to dislike unscored scenes in an action/adventure movie. I admit sometimes it does work fine and, for example with dialog scenes, music is not really required at all. But then sometimes there's these "sound effects"-only action scenes that just seem totally uninteresting to me until the music starts. A good example would be the pod race in Star Wars Episode I. There's this exciting race going on, but it just feels totally boring to me. Until the music starts and then suddenly it's exciting to me. I wished there would've been music in the whole scene. Of course I'd much prefer to have the music written for the scene in there. I hate tracking.

There was a bit more music written for the sequence but it was dropped as we know. I agree that it felt boring to watch the Podrace since it mostly was just the sfx and everything like that.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I actually think that's one of the most successful scenes in the film in terms of music use. Having the first lap or so with just the noise of the engines is awesome, and it works pretty well when the music comes in as Anakin gets close to Sebulba that the tension is actually kicked up a notch, which is so rare for that film, or any of the prequels.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The Pod Race gives the speakers a good workout.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

It's not really a movie, but I think A Timeless Call is overscored. I just saw it yesterday finally, and the music completely kills the emotion conveyed by the veterans. It makes it seem cheesy, maybe even like a joke.

[ConnieR. 0]

I think a film is overscored when the music becomes distracting and doesn't seem to fit the visuals or the dialogue. The music doesn't necessarily have to have the same emotional feel as the action; in fact often it works well when its just the opposite, because it can make you feel tension that isn't directly seen, or it can be a warning of something about to happe. I think the type of movie also plays a part as to how much music should be there. The Star Wars movies are meant to have an epic feel, so naturally they have a lot more music, but I don't think its overdone. It all depends on whether you want a big epic feel to a scene, or whether you want to have a more intimate approach to the inner feelings of the characters. And I think the same music will have different meanings to different people, just as the acting does.