IJ4 vs ID4

[Pieter Boelen 633]

I think this comparision might be an interesting one,

considering Indendence Day was possibly the main reason why Indiana Jones 4 wasn't made ten years ago with the Saucer Men from Mars script.

Even Spielberg says he thought Independence Day was a pretty good film in the behind the scenes material on the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull DVD.

Now I'm fully aware that pretty much everyone here will prefer Steven Spielberg's films over Roland Emmerich's in general and

will prefer John Williams scores over David Arnold scores on the whole. But how does the comparison keep up in this particular case?

And since we're on the subject anyway, let's discuss some of the possibilities for Indiana Jones 4 that have surfaced over the years.

Would you have preferred Indiana Jones 4 being made according to the old Saucer Men from Mars draft or using the

Frank Darabont draft that leaked onto the Internet or do you like the final film version best?

What elements did you like from previous drafts that you would have preferred to see on the screen?

Which parts of the final movie did you really like and which parts did you really dislike?

What would you have preferred for Indiana Jones 4, provided you would've wanted it made in the first place?

Or did you think the final film was as good as it could've/should've been?

VS

[Trent B 317]

For the score and film I voted Independence Day in a heart beat. Indiana Jones 4' score doesn't even come close to the level of Independence Day' score. Also too the film Independence Day is a lot funner to watch than Indiana Jones 4, in my opinion.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Checkmate.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I don't remember ID4's score, but the film is absolute pooe, so I'll pick KOTCS for the film.

[Quintus 5,391]

ID4 for the first two questions and Darabont for the last. Minus any contribution from Lucas at all.

[Richard Penna 2,082]

ID4 on both counts. The film is cheesy and over the top, but considered within expectations for its genre, it kicks Indy's ass IMO. The score is also far more memorable and contains passages that I consider to be just as complex as KotCS.

Third options? Lose the aliens, and Lucas.

[Jeshopk 8]

Never cared for ID4, film or score. Just not on the same level as any of Williams' music or any of Spielberg's films.

[Richard Penna 2,082]

I respectfully disagree. Maybe we're using different standards, or if (quite reasonably) you just don't like ID4, but from someone who likes a hell of a lot more than just Williams, ID4 easily eclipses some of his weaker scores IMO.

[Pieter Boelen 633]

As much as it pains me to say it, I have to go with Independence Day on the first two.

Indiana Jones is my favourite movie series, but Indiana Jones 4 just falls short of living up to the previous three.

And it falls short badly. I like it, but I'm very much hoping for an Indiana Jones 5 that IS made the way it's supposed to be done

with not so much stupid (George Lucas?) ideas (ALIENS! GRR!) and where Steven Spielberg actually does have his heart in it.

It was too painfully obvious, especially from the behind the scenes material on the DVD,

that Steven Spielberg never really agreed with the whole aliens concept. And I think, neither did Harrison Ford.

That said, I do think that the story that ended up in the final film was a lot better than it could've been (SAUCER MEN! YUK!).

I don't care much for the Frank Darabont draft (that giant snake it STUPID!), so I pick the David Koepp script to be the best version.

I actually read the novelization by James Rollins a couple of days ago and that was really good.

I just wished the final movie would've been more like it. It takes the same story, but tells it in a way that works better than the final film.

[Trent B 317]

Never cared for ID4, film or score. Just not on the same level as any of Williams' music or any of Spielberg's films.

Very sad that you think that way. Independence Day blows Indiana Jones out of the water by far.

Edit: I'm listening to the complete score for ID4 right now too.

[Pieter Boelen 633]

Very sad that you think that way. Independence Day blows Indiana Jones out of the water by far.

I take it you mean "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" here and not Indiana Jones in general, right?

[Trent B 317]

KOTCS....yes.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Not seen ID4, only familiar with the movie version of IJ4, and while I always found Arnold's score overrated, it still held my interest for far longer than Williams' did (and I don't buy all those arguments about it being so accomplished - all of Williams scores are accomplished, but most have more interesting elements than endless tone scales).

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I probably should listen to the score outside of the context of the film (which I loathe). Although I do really like some elements of KOTCS (I love 'Call of the Crystal'.)

[MrScratch 292]

ID4 film, ID4 score and Darabont.

I don't really like ID4, but even that is better than KotCS.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Indy 4 for both film and score. There will never be a day where I choose an Emmerich film over a Spielberg film, and an Arnold score over a Williams score.

I just stuck with the final version of the script. The best story for Indy 4 would have been that of Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, even though that deserves its own movie.

[indy4 152]

As far as I'm concerned, ID4 is one of the worst films ever made. So I pick KotCS for number 1.

For score, KotCS again, though I do like the score to ID4.

And I'm only familiar with the film version of KotCS.

[Taikomochi 783]

IJ4, IJ4, The Movie version.

I actually hated Darabont's draft. Sure, it had a lot of nice tie-ins which is the only thing I give it credit for over the final product, but it didn't have the same Indiana Jones life as I got, albeit a bit depleted, in IJ4.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

People aren't fair to Independence Day. They talk about it like it personally ruined their lives or something.

[indy4 152]

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

[Jay 27,216]

ID4 for the first two questions and Darabont for the last. Minus any contribution from Lucas at all.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

I probably should have picked it as the better movie though. I was going to, but thought about all its badness. The least bit it's entertaining, and I can't say the same for Indy 4. I just really hate Roland Emmerich.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

In what way, its a much better film than KOTCS on all levels, technically, acting, directing, everyway.

[Trent B 317]

People aren't fair to Independence Day. They talk about it like it personally ruined their lives or something.

Indeed.

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

In what way, its a much better film than KOTCS on all levels, technically, acting, directing, everyway.

Quite true on that Joe.

[Datameister 1,394]

I prefer IJ 4 as a film and as a score, if I remember correctly. And I'm not too familiar with the different incarnations of the script, but I would have preferred one without Lucas' input, for the most part. Aliens and dumb humor, for instance.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

In what way, its a much better film than KOTCS on all levels, technically, acting, directing, everyway.

No, it really isn't. I'm not attempting to defend KOTCS, because A: I don't think it's all that and B: I'm tired of the whole conversation, but ID4 is a terrible film. It's overbearing in every way, the writing is straight out of Ed Wood via The A Team, the acting is like a sitcom, the direction is pedestrian, and everything in the film treats itself as if this is some classic movie, a bit like Ed Zwick doing SF. Thank god there's no Tom Cruise.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

sorry but you're quite wrong, next

refrigerator,

REFRIGERATOR,

REFRIGERATOR

[Diego 21]

I've never seen ID4 nor have I heard the score (although I would like to have it, I've never found it down here), but I don't get the whole "Indy 4 is an alien movie" or "it's a 50's alien B-movie", sure there are aliens and a flying saucer at the end but 95% of the movie is just like the other ones with chases, natives, etc(crappier I know).

It doesn't seem to be an alien movie to me, certainly not in the way ID4 seems to be.

[Ollie 859]

ID4 the film

ID4 the score

and Darabont's script with some slight tightening and editing.

[Quintus 5,391]

I've never seen ID4 nor have I heard the score

You really should do. The movie is fun as hell and so is the score, for that matter.

The one simple difference between Indy IV and ID4 is this: The former doesn't work and the latter does.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I honestly don't see anything in ID4 at all. I'm kinda starting to think I wish I did. I watched it again recently, and to me it's just a personification of the worst Hollywood summer movies can produce.

Oh well. I suppose the bits it copied from V were quite good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

ID4 in both cases!

[MrScratch 292]

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

In what way, its a much better film than KOTCS on all levels, technically, acting, directing, everyway.

Visual effects too, they are the movie's strongest asset. They were impressive back in 1996 and still hold up. Indy 4 effects are just plain terrible, surprising as I thought that if KotCS would do anything right it would be the special effects.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I honestly don't see anything in ID4 at all. I'm kinda starting to think I wish I did. I watched it again recently, and to me it's just a personification of the worst Hollywood summer movies can produce.

Oh well. I suppose the bits it copied from V were quite good.

In all fairness it borrows from several genre's and several films and it does them each well IMHO.

V, War of the Worlds, Casablanca, CE3K, Alien Nation.

[Quintus 5,391]

One of ID4's greatest strengths is it's characters. It has a lot of fun characters; something missing from most of the IP's Joey lists above. Incidentally, Indy IV only has one good character.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

One of ID4's greatest strengths is it's characters. It has a lot of fun characters; something missing from most of the IP's Joey lists above.

excuse me, Casablanca is full of great characters, so is Close Encounters, and what made Alien Nation so strong a film was its characters.

Granted War of the Worlds wasn't character driven, but ID4 doesn't borrow from that aspect of the film. And V was full of nutty characters. Quint maybe you should watch a few of those films.

[Quintus 5,391]

Excuse me, Casablanca and Close Encounters are what were meant by the "most" part of my comment, in that they are counted as having GREAT characters.

I haven't seen Alien Nation.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

One of ID4's greatest strengths is it's characters. It has a lot of fun characters; something missing from most of the IP's Joey lists above. Incidentally, Indy IV only has one good character.

Again, that's the opposite with me. Awful, smarmy, terrible wisecracking, empty sayers of crap dialogue. From Pullman's Cormanesque President to Judd Hirsch and his Goldblum-whining to Will Smith's idiot bravado to Spiner's UFO geek, I just want to throw things at the screen. Luckily, my TV was cheap.

I haven't seen Alien Nation.

It's pretty good. Patinkin and Caan make a good duo, and hey, aliens getting drunk on sour milk.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Its a good movie, nothing extraordinary but quite enjoyable. Its does try too heavily to compare racial relations between blacks and whites in comparison to interspecies relationships with humans and the aliens.

[Quintus 5,391]

crap dialogue.

Crap dialogue has a place, in the right movie and ID4 is it! Make no mistake, ID4 isn't touching greatness by any measure, but it is a whole lot of brainless fun nonetheless. The dialogue in ID4 isn't crap, it is downright terrible. And all the better for it.

The President's speech is actually one of the most stirring (and well executed) speeches in the movies. Double serving of cheese included. And I say that as a Brit.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Damn right!

[JoeinAR 1,759]

the Presidents speach isn't crap, its great. And in that moment the film is great, if only for a moment. Oh and the scenes of mass destruction are great. Iconic actually. I don't think it will ever be done better.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I think 'agree to disagree' is the phrase I'm looking for.

Still, can't wait for the IJ4 vs XTRO poll!

[Quintus 5,391]

I think 'agree to disagree' is the phrase I'm looking for.

[MSM 85]

Ha Pieter, interesting poll.

ID4 in both cases

[indy4 152]

Nah. It's just a terrible movie.

In what way, its a much better film than KOTCS on all levels, technically, acting, directing, everyway.

Keep in mind that I haven't seen ID4 for a while, so some of the specifics might escape me. I do quite clearly remember hating it after my first viewing.

1. Acting: ID4 has pretty standard acting. Goldblum is the only one who was really exceptional I thought, and if I recall correctly the President and Will Smith's wife are both pretty bad. Acting in KotCS is actually one of the strongest points of the film. Indy, Spalko, and Mutt are all exceptional, the rest of the acting is good.

2. Characters: They just aren't interesting in ID4. I never cared for their safety in any of the destruction scenes (that's not true--I cared for the dog). They spend quite a bit of time trying to make you care for the characters through little backstories, but in the end it really doesn't work that well. It's better than some films, but nothing great.

3. SFX: This is one area where ID4 is superior, although the best effects of KotCS are just as good as the best of ID4. KotCS just suffers from all the needless SFX, especially in the Jungle Chase.

4. Story: ID4 succeeds in pretty much reenacting every "aliens take over" cliche. The scenes of extermination are looooooooong and overdone (much like the entire film). Most of the few good scenes are pulled directly from Star Wars. The film goes on forever and ever, I was waiting for it to be over for the last half of the film. And the President's speech...please, it's one of the most sappy and predictable scenes. I know KotCS is cheesy, but in ID4 I don't think it's intentional. It comes off as a scene that's supposed to be inspirational, but just falls flat on its face.

[Henry B 49]

Haven't seen ID4. The score never really clicked with me, so I'll go with Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. And the Darabont script, of course.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Darabont had him swallowed by a snake. That's where I stopped reading. Koepp's is better.

[Jeshopk 8]

I respectfully disagree. Maybe we're using different standards, or if (quite reasonably) you just don't like ID4, but from someone who likes a hell of a lot more than just Williams, ID4 easily eclipses some of his weaker scores IMO.

I've seen ID4 2 or 3 times and I remember each time feeling that the score lacked dynamics , especially in the trumpets. Harmonically, it was very simplistic and there was never a real sense of awe or tension. Just sort of flat.

The film was entertaining, but it had nothing to take away from. It was not an experience, but rather like watching a sitcom and chuckling. Just light entertainment fare with no uniqueness to hold on to.

As wierd as some of the choices in KOTCS are, they left me with a unique feeling, and I felt like I had been somewhere. Spielberg excels at this even when he makes some stupid choices. And I'll add, I think ID4 had even sillier choices than KOTCS. Its just that when its following such perfection, it sticks out more. Imagine a Raiders sequel that was only as good as ID4, and the hell fans would give that one.

I'd call KOTCS score rich and textural, while I would call ID4 the score shallow and plain.

[indy4 152]

Darabont had him swallowed by a snake. That's where I stopped reading. Koepp's is better.

Who?