IJ4 vs ID4

[Hlao-roo 388]

I respectfully disagree. Maybe we're using different standards, or if (quite reasonably) you just don't like ID4, but from someone who likes a hell of a lot more than just Williams, ID4 easily eclipses some of his weaker scores IMO.

I've seen ID4 2 or 3 times and I remember each time feeling that the score lacked dynamics , especially in the trumpets. Harmonically, it was very simplistic and there was never a real sense of awe or tension. Just sort of flat.

FSM's Doug Adams has also been critical of Arnold's ID4, finding it musically incoherent:

I did my civic duty this summer and saw

Independence Day

. Let's start here on a positive note. I thought David Arnold did some nice things. I liked the piccolo/field-drum setting of the theme which hinted at 4th of July folklore without saying anything directly about the film. I liked the way Arnold dealt with the mystique of American patriotism when he's actually from the country that lost the war that started on July 4th. I thought it was interesting that the main theme didn't really reveal itself until the (I think) July 4th logo came up on the screen. This showed that Arnold did actually have one eye on the overall story. The problem I had with the score is that it just wasn't well enough composed as music. I thought that the action music was specifically lacking in this respect. Almost every moment of action music had something of some musical interest happening, but it was just a string of mainly unrelated ideas. Themes and motifs may pop up from time to time, but everything else felt like it was filler, just taking up space to avoid silence. Arnold thinks in very musical ways, and there was always a kernel of interest in each bar, but look at this sentence: Relinquish, epitome, recalcitrant, delectable, effervescently. If I stack five impressive-sounding words right next to each other, they are rendered useless unless they have some sort of bearing on one another. Read them with a Shakespearean dialect. Now they sound pretty too, but they still have no meaning—no coherence. My awkward point being, this is how

Independence Day

's score sounded to me. Musical ideas cannot sound like stream of consciousness outbursts. Why does this matter? Is this just a concert music criticism applied to film music? No, I don't think it is. It's been said that the reason music is in a drama at all is that it shapes the proceedings somehow. It should seem obvious that in order for music to lend a story some shape, the music itself must have some discernible shape to begin with. If a cue just sounds like an unrelated string of undeveloped musical ideas, it can't really say anything significant about anything else. This may go back to composing with longer forms in mind. Composing in short, detached musical ideas only shapes films into choppy little story blocks.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

As much as it pains me to say it, I have to go with Independence Day on the first two.

Indiana Jones is my favourite movie series, but Indiana Jones 4 just falls short of living up to the previous three.

And it falls short badly. I like it, but I'm very much hoping for an Indiana Jones 5 that IS made the way it's supposed to be done

with not so much stupid (George Lucas?) ideas (ALIENS! GRR!) and where Steven Spielberg actually does have his heart in it.

It was too painfully obvious, especially from the behind the scenes material on the DVD,

that Steven Spielberg never really agreed with the whole aliens concept. And I think, neither did Harrison Ford.

That said, I do think that the story that ended up in the final film was a lot better than it could've been (SAUCER MEN! YUK!).

I don't care much for the Frank Darabont draft (that giant snake it STUPID!), so I pick the David Koepp script to be the best version.

I actually read the novelization by James Rollins a couple of days ago and that was really good.

I just wished the final movie would've been more like it. It takes the same story, but tells it in a way that works better than the final film.

You seem extremely hung up about the aliens....

[indy4 152]

I was glad to see that Spielberg and Lucas were still taking risks and implementing new ideas into a film which could have very easily become a formulaic deal. Of course, some claim that it DID turn out to be a formulaic deal, but I disagree, and the aliens are one of my reasons.

[Nick Parker 3,017]

I think you are all forgetting something here: they are not "aliens", they are "inter-dimensional beings". With that being said, I prefer "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" on both counts. I agree with Charlie Brigden's opinions (I did like Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum, though) on the film. I thought it was quite good in the beginning, but I remember thinking that the really dramatic moments (such as the dog escaping oblivion in a slow-motion jump) felt forced, and... I just did not like the film.

I never read Darabont's script, either.

[Neimoidian 13]

Independence Day - both film and score that is one of the 90s' best in its genre. The movie, a cheesefeast that is, its truly entertaining unless you treat it seriously. It's afterall a tongue-in-cheek and deliberately over-the-top movie. Add superb sfx and score and you have 2h of pure fun.

I am unfamiliar with any other IJ 4 stories.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

I'm just wondering, are people referring to the superior theatrical version, or the unnecessary "Special Edition" with 9-minutes of superfluous character moments that do nothing but drag the movie and add terrible dialogue that makes the film seem worse than what it really is?

[Pieter Boelen 633]

You seem extremely hung up about the aliens....

I do believe that the aliens concept shows that the idea for Indiana Jones 4 was flawed to begin with.

Indiana Jones should deal with the past; aliens, whichever way you put them,

are science-fiction and thus more modern/future-y and as such, do not belong in an Indiana Jones film.

However, after reading the novelization, I do believe that even with the aliens, KotCS could've been a better film.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I think you are all forgetting something here: they are not "aliens", they are "inter-dimensional beings".

Doesnt that just mean that they arent space-aliens, but aliens nonetheless?

You seem extremely hung up about the aliens....

I do believe that the aliens concept shows that the idea for Indiana Jones 4 was flawed to begin with.

Indiana Jones should deal with the past; aliens, whichever way you put them,

are science-fiction and thus more modern/future-y and as such, do not belong in an Indiana Jones film.

However, after reading the novelization, I do believe that even with the aliens, KotCS could've been a better film.

The aliens are the least of the movie's problems.

[Quintus 5,391]

I agree with much of what Doug Adam's had to say about the score actually, but then I suddenly realised that like the movie; sometimes it's best not over analyse big dumb entertainment too much. It spoils the fun...

Self important critique makes me snooze.

[Ollie 859]

ID4 also won the Oscar for best visual effects. That was at a time when films were jumping on the CGI bandwagon, yet ID4 did alot of effects the old fashioned way.

It's funny how people criticize Arnold for his score, yet it sounds like something John Williams might have composed in his prime years; a rousing main theme, several subthemes and motifs, chohesive action music that centers on a theme or motif and doesn't get too abstract, a nice long end credit piece that ends in a massive flourish, heart tugging music for the sad scenes.....

Ahhh but his name isn't John Williams so it's automatically beneath us.....

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Arnold was actually named "the next John Williams" at the time because of ID4...

[indy4 152]

It's funny how people criticize Arnold for his score, yet it sounds like something John Williams might have composed in his prime years; a rousing main theme, several subthemes and motifs, chohesive action music that centers on a theme or motif and doesn't get too abstract, a nice long end credit piece that ends in a massive flourish, heart tugging music for the sad scenes.....

Ahhh but his name isn't John Williams so it's automatically beneath us.....

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

indy4 - who does enjoy the score to ID4

[Pieter Boelen 633]

The aliens are the least of the movie's problems.

I admit there are more problems that just that with the movie.

But the choice to put aliens in there was probably the first mistake made in the process of making the film.

[Neimoidian 13]

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

That's why I don't find KotCS a good Williams' score. Well-written - yes, enjoyable - yes, but it pales in comparison with the really good ones, not to mention the great ones.

[Ollie 859]

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

Really? Because most of Williams A+ scores have those same qualities.

[Neimoidian 13]

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

Really? Because most of Williams A+ scores have those same qualities.

And most of other composers' scores are criticized here just for not having them...

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Don't bother Mark, Indy 4 isn't capable of understanding you.

[Ollie 859]

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

Really? Because most of Williams A+ scores have those same qualities.

And most of other composers' scores are criticized here just for not having them...

I think it depends on the composer. You don't have to have them because there are some Williams scores that are A+ efforts that aren't action scores.

But I think Arnold's ID4 score is more structered and cohesive than Doug Adams says, and I have great respect for his opinion.

In fact his review might sum up most of Williams current action scores, a lot of filler music and and unrelated ideas that just drift randomly.

Arnold was actually named "the next John Williams" at the time because of ID4...

It's funny you mention that. At the time of ID4's release, Starlog magazine ran an interview with Dean Devlin & Roland Emmerich. I don't remember the exact content but it was something along the lines of Devlin mentioning that when the contracts are drawn up it stipulates that David Arnold will be the composer for their film. Yet had they not met him they both wanted Williams to be their main composer they would use for all of their films.

[Quintus 5,391]

Ahhh but his name isn't John Williams so it's automatically beneath us.....

That last sentence is what bugs me most about this place. That and it always rains here.

[Ollie 859]

What, that everyone wants Williams to score their films?

****Edit****

Oops you hadn't quoted that line yet when I read your post.

[Quintus 5,391]

Yeah sorry dude, I messed up.

[John Crichton 4]

ID4 is one of the best scores ever written. Period.

[Ollie 859]

And that's because John said so.

[John Crichton 4]

I'm John Crichton and I approve this message.

[MSM 85]

the Presidents speach isn't crap, its great. And in that moment the film is great, if only for a moment. Oh and the scenes of mass destruction are great. Iconic actually. I don't think it will ever be done better.

Thank you.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I'm John Crichton and I approve this message.

I know John Crichton, and you're not John Crichton.

[Diego 21]

The aliens are the least of the movie's problems.

Very, very true.

[Trent B 317]

ID4 is one of the best scores ever written. Period.

Agreed! As I said before Indiana Jones and The Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull score will never be on the same level as Independence Day's score.

[MissPadmé 17]

As a film it is clearly ID4 afterall it doesn't want to be a good film, it wants to be a nobrainer.

Score it is Indiana Jones of course!! this pastiche of old elements combined with some new brilliant ideas is far superior to that overcheerish score Arnold delivered

[pixie_twinkle 44]

IJ4 easily. Yes, I was a little disappointed, but I was far more disappointed by ID4 which looked like it was going to be a frightening alien invasion movie and turned out to be a flabby comedy instead.

[indy4 152]

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

Really? Because most of Williams A+ scores have those same qualities.

I never said they didn't. What I'm saying is that it takes more than "a rousing main theme, several subthemes and motifs, chohesive action music that centers on a theme or motif and doesn't get too abstract, a nice long end credit piece that ends in a massive flourish, heart tugging music for the sad scenes" to make a score on par with John Williams' A+ action scores.

[Henry B 49]

There's more to a good John Williams score than that.

Really? Because most of Williams A+ scores have those same qualities.

I never said they didn't. What I'm saying is that it takes more than "a rousing main theme, several subthemes and motifs, chohesive action music that centers on a theme or motif and doesn't get too abstract, a nice long end credit piece that ends in a massive flourish, heart tugging music for the sad scenes" to make a score on part with John Williams' A+ action scores.

Yes, those are superficial similarities. "Several subthemes and motifs" and "massive flourish" say nothing about quality. I think tracks like "The President's Speech" are far removed from anything Williams has written. There is no comparison to be made.

[Trent B 317]

As a film it is clearly ID4 afterall it doesn't want to be a good film, it wants to be a nobrainer.

Score it is Indiana Jones of course!! this pastiche of old elements combined with some new brilliant ideas is far superior to that overcheerish score Arnold delivered

What are you smoking?

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Whatever it is, pass it here!