The source of the Jaws Theme: finally found

[Quintus 5,399]

I removed the subsentence containing the word 'decades' (which was not to take literally of course).

Look man, I'm not getting on your back and I absolutely promise you that, but how the heck are we (the readers) supposed to know that you were not being literal? I actually believe you were being wholly literal, but now you regret your choice of words. We've all made written f*ck ups on here dude, just live with it and forget about it, since it ain't really that important.

Sorry fella, but you are reaping exactly what you sowed.

[MSM 126]

MSM,

I would like to know why you believe that this ostinato is so unique that it would need inspiration to be repeated in multiple works? Even the most complex melody could be arrived at by two composers independently, but the likelihood of coincidence course decreases the more complex it is. If a composer loses credibility by constantly coming up with music that was unlikely to have been independently composed, that is also a factor, but nothing is provable even in very complex music. When we are talking two notes, it is nothing but empty conjecture. The orchestration is standard for the pitches represented. Perhaps your hunt is just too unscientific to be taken seriously.

If you have a problem with me, or my thread that's ok. Please let's keep it civilized. You don't have to take it seriously and there is nothing that can be scientifically proven. But I like looking for links between composer's works and try to find possible connections that are actually plausible to be real. Believe me, I wouldnt have posted this if I wasn't convinced of the similarity, and no all the other clips are orchestrated way differently. It's ok if you don't see it the way I do.

What I hate actually is that people try to get me while they did not even care about listening to the clip I mentioned. Honestly, who in this thread did?

I removed the subsentence containing the word 'decades' (which was not to take literally of course).

Look man, I'm not getting on your back and I absolutely promise you that, but how the heck are we (the readers) supposed to know that you were not being literal? I actually believe you were being wholly literal, but now you regret your choice of words. We've all made written f*ck ups on here dude, just live with it and forget about it, since it ain't really that important.

Sorry fella, but you are reaping exactly what you sowed.

I don't see what's so difficult about it all. Wasn't the purpose of the thread clear? I just wanted people to discuss the similarity between Walton's cue and JW's motiv

[Jeshopk 8]

What I hate actually is that people try to get me while they did not even care about listening to the clip I mentioned. Honestly, who in this thread did?

I'm so familiar with the cue that I didn't need to go back and listen to it, but I will take a moment to review... And no, it does not appear to be the inspiration for the JAWS theme. Nothing could. The JAWS ostinato and orchestration is so simple that anyone could come up with it. The genius of it is not in its construction, but in its variations, permutations, secondary motifs and its function in the drama of the film.

If there were a piece containing the 2 notes as well as the rising tuba call, then that might be an inspiration. If it contained the ostinato, the tuba call and the violin melody, I would say the case would get even stronger.

You can look back and find similarities for anything, but that does not mean it is the inspiration. You have to have a complex set of similarities in order for it to even be considered as an inspiration. Even then, the composer's verbal indication of an inspiration is the only 100% proof of a derived inspiration. This being said, we can usually assume when something is inspired, given that the set of similarities between works is complex enough to warrant it. I believe that by lowering your threshold, or "smell test" to merely ostinato and instrumentation, you discount the creative process as a factor.

Symphonic music, by definition, has a limited number of attributes. Pair that down to tonal music and the attributes are even more limited. Pair that down to genre music, and that is even more limited. That is usually why we see repeated patterns in music, not because composers are working off one anothers work. This is not to say that obvious examples of modelled work don't exist, but one must use a higher threshold for the test, or the original creative process is completely discounted as a factor in new works which are at all based in symphonic and genre traditions.

As a composer, I tend to defend the creative process. Too many great composers are belittled as being "derivative" and the end result is a lot of music that ignores technique, effect, color, flavor, etc. in order to strike unfamiliar ground. What others call originality should really be called rarity. Rarity is not an indicator of quality, and works which are not filled with "rare" sounds can still be totally original in their conception.

It is valuing rarity as a commodity that has divided commercial and concert music to the unhealthy extent it has been. This is the reason for the cynicism that drives copycat composers, and also the elitism that excludes lush, romantic concert works from being considered for performance and as modern repertoire. The "movie music" concert is a bitter pill that is cynically taken, disrespectfully I might add, by programming committees of serious orchestras - for sheer monetary purposes. In other words, they'll play new romantic works, but they don't like it, and they only play the big ticket sellers (LOTR, Star Wars, etc).

[MSM 126]

What I hate actually is that people try to get me while they did not even care about listening to the clip I mentioned. Honestly, who in this thread did?

I'm so familiar with the cue that I didn't need to go back and listen to it, but I will take a moment to review... And no, it does not appear to be the inspiration for the JAWS theme. Nothing could. The JAWS ostinato and orchestration is so simple that anyone could come up with it. The genius of it is not in its construction, but in its variations, permutations, secondary motifs and its function in the drama of the film.

If there were a piece containing the 2 notes as well as the rising tuba call, then that might be an inspiration. If it contained the ostinato, the tuba call and the violin melody, I would say the case would get even stronger.

You can look back and find similarities for anything, but that does not mean it is the inspiration. You have to have a complex set of similarities in order for it to even be considered as an inspiration. Even then, the composer's verbal indication of an inspiration is the only 100% proof of a derived inspiration. This being said, we can usually assume when something is inspired, given that the set of similarities between works is complex enough to warrant it. I believe that by lowering your threshold, or "smell test" to merely ostinato and instrumentation, you discount the creative process as a factor.

Symphonic music, by definition, has a limited number of attributes. Pair that down to tonal music and the attributes are even more limited. Pair that down to genre music, and that is even more limited. That is usually why we see repeated patterns in music, not because composers are working off one anothers work. This is not to say that obvious examples of modelled work don't exist, but one must use a higher threshold or the original creative process is completely discounted as a factor in new works which are at all based in symphonic and genre traditions.

So you are actually saying that no-one could ever tell an inspiration for the Jaws ostinato unless JW himself would point it out. I see your point but I do not agree. I am not talking about superficial similarities (e.g. the other examples mentioned). I don't have the scores to compare the cues as to instrumentation but I have a good ear. This very cue would be mistaken by any JW fan when it would be a track on the Jaws soundtrack album. Please listen to it and see if you can reconsider your point of view. It's good that we exactly know what we are talking about.

[Jeshopk 8]

So you are actually saying that no-one could ever tell an inspiration for the Jaws ostinato unless JW himself would point it out. I see your point but I do not agree. I am not talking about superficial similarities (e.g. the other examples mentioned). I don't have the scores to compare the cues as to instrumentation but I have a good ear. This very cue would be mistaken by any JW fan when it would be a track on the Jaws soundtrack album. Please listen to it and see if you can reconsider your point of view. It's good that we exactly know what we are talking about.

In the case of something so simple, yes the composer would have to point it out. The reason is because it is basically the equivalent of 3 word sentence in a book, and not even a very unique one at that. Two authors can indeed come up with the same sentence without having been ever read each others' work, and the same happens in music all the time, orchestration and all. I once composed a theme for a concert work that sounded remarkably like an obscure classical piece that I am absoultely sure I had never heard. This is possible because the language of music is such that certain constructions will happen again and again. The more simple the construction, the more likely that two authors will arrive independently at the same idea.

Furthermore I'll state, that in the heat of creation, it is possible to be subconsciously inspired by other works. This is how most musical creation occurs, and is one reason why art seems to become dated after a certain point. The artist asks himself, "what would be appropriate here?" and then is influenced by current trends. This is as true in concert music as it is in commercial music. Herrmann and Williams were contemporaries who spoke in the musical language of the time, which Herrmann had a great deal of influence in developing out of his originally more Operatic and English sensibilities. However, it is possible as well that Herrmann was influenced by other horror scores of the time, in a general sense.

One thing that gives Williams' creative process an edge over others is that he doesn't eschew anything for being "too old fashioned" or "too modern", nor does he cling to either set of styles. He has an ear for what is effective in a certain scenario. A composer like Williams would certainly understand that using an interval ostinato in low instruments is not an act of invention, but an act of utilization of the language of music which was developed before film music came along.

[indy4 155]

No no no. You're all wrong. The inspiration for the Jaws theme came from the last two notes of "Shave and a Haircut"

If I had to pick an inspiration for the Jaws theme, I'd go with "Man Returns" from Bambi.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

He just prefers to hurt people's feelings.

shut up Koray, you're also calling him a thief. I don't care about your feelings, how do you think JW likes it when people like you and MSM say he stole something or as MSM trys to backtrack and say I mean his inspiration.

The man has been my idol longer than either of you've been alive, I get sick of people like you questioning his integrity.

MSM I will take what you've said, as you mean JW no harm, Koray I do not.

I may not agree with the things you say, Joe, but you just wished I was dead. Sorry if I don't take that lightly, especially since you used a personal event in my life to go about saying it.

now you should post in the thread that I marked you for life, you're so injured by what I said.

The inspiration for the Jaws theme was the shark in the movie Jaws, it inspired JW to go simple and by doing so he changed motion picture history beyond all imagination.

[Wojo 2,453]

Joey, MSM, Quint, Jeshopk, and Koray...I'd like you all to listen to this clip and take it to heart. Because this defines how far gone this thread has become.

[MSM 126]

Joey, MSM, Quint, Jeshopk, and Koray...I'd like you all to listen to this clip and take it to heart. Because this defines how far gone this thread has become.

I might be a weirdo, but did anyone listen to the Walton cue already?

No serious, is there no-one who owns the North By Northwest OST?

[indy4 155]

I listened to it. To be honest, I don't really hear it. Composers have used a two note motif billions of times before Jaws, the unique thing about Jaws is that is was used as a recurring theme and not just a one time motif. IMO, this is as much an influence to Jaws as 0:33 of "Follow that Kid!" is an homage. Or as "Detectives" inspired the James Bond theme. I don't think everything that JW wrote has a direct musical inspiration, and trying to find these similarities can be fun, but I wouldn't take them too seriously.

[MSM 126]

I listened to it. To be honest, I don't really hear it. Composers have used a two note motif billions of times before Jaws, the unique thing about Jaws is that is was used as a recurring theme and not just a one time motif. IMO, this is as much an influence to Jaws as 0:33 of "Follow that Kid!" is an homage. Or as "Detectives" inspired the James Bond theme. I don't think everything that JW wrote has a direct musical inspiration, and trying to find these similarities can be fun, but I wouldn't take them too seriously.

That's alright. At least you see it can be fun!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I listened to them as well MSM, but I didn't hear it. However in all fairness I was pigheaded and didn't want to hear it either, so I will listen again later, and hear what I hear.

[MSM 126]

I listened to them as well MSM, but I didn't hear it. However in all fairness I was pigheaded and didn't want to hear it either, so I will listen again later, and hear what I hear.

Thank you, I appreciate. Make sure you listen to the right track